Future of beef farming

carrollsno1

So lads the dairy boys are discussing their futures in dairying whats ours in the beef sector looking like? Im currently helping my father expanding the suckler herd at home really only to give me some equity for dairy cows hoping to sharemilk about 200 cows doen the line abd run a calf to beef operation as well

-how do i add a poll
- dairy farmers input appreciated

Jaysus Christ

Suckler farming is ****ed because of all those long legged narrow arsed dairy animals flooding the market.

carrollsno1

Jaysus Christ wrote: »

Suckler farming is ****ed because of all those long legged narrow arsed dairy animals flooding the market.

Would the economics including the bdgp payment be able to leave a producer a profit at say 4.20€/kg

greenfield21

I think it's time for beef men to get them selves some of this white gold. Dairy is where the big bucks are.

blue5000

Brexit not looking good for any of us, a lot of the strong beef price here over the last 18 mths was a combination of strong sterling and scarce cattle in UK.

TITANIUM.

I can see this thread degenerating into another suckler and beef man thrashing session by our well heeled dairy brethren.
Could they survive as many bad years as we've had tho? I'm not so sure.

charolais0153

TITANIUM. wrote: »

I can see this thread degenerating into another suckler and beef man thrashing session by our well heeled dairy brethren.
Could they survive as many bad years as we've had tho? I'm not so sure.

Many dairy farmers are making a profit in bad years and its only the dairy farmers that are heavily in debt and lack enthusiasm that wont survive. These last two years are hardly bad years for beef either. Last summer store prices were unreal. Beef farmers are their own problem pay too much , take too little IMO

djmc

I disagree any intensive farming like pigs poultry dairying you will have higher input costs on ration electricity plant repairs etc.
They also require full time labour seven days a week.
Beef can be done successfully part time and be somewhat insulated by having an off farm job or other income.
I can see more part time beef and drystock farmers in the future and less pig and dairy farmers
The ones left will be larger more efficient and have better type farmland.

CloughCasey1

Jaysus Christ wrote: »

Suckler farming is ****ed because of all those long legged narrow arsed dairy animals flooding the market.

Suckler farming won't leave a profit unless you are producing offspring near export quality or better and farmers need to be at least getting €1k or more for weanlings to turn a profit. It has nothing to do with dairy bred calves! A quality weanling will always demand top money and will always have their own section of the market.

patsy_mccabe

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

..... and farmers need to be at least getting €1k or more for weanlings to turn a profit.......

I think this is the classic mistake people make. Assuming the more you get for your weanlings, the more profitable the farm will be. It's no bother get €1,000 plus for weanlings, just get a big muscular PB Lim cow and cross to a proven AI BB bull. Throw meal into them then. Hey presto - €1000 weanling.
Who's to say the guy selling at €850 is making more money. He may have a smaller cow with plenty of milk and be feeding far less meal.

blue5000

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

Suckler farming won't leave a profit unless you are producing offspring near export quality or better and farmers need to be at least getting €1k or more for weanlings to turn a profit. It has nothing to do with dairy bred calves! A quality weanling will always demand top money and will always have their own section of the market.

Funnily enough those are the type of suckler producers that are converting to dairying. Costs are too high. Anybody with variable costs over €1 per kg LW is going to find it tough going.

CloughCasey1

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I think this is the classic mistake people make. Assuming the more you get for your weanlings, the more profitable the farm will be. It's no bother get €1,000 plus for weanlings, just get a big muscular PB Lim cow and cross to a proven AI BB bull. Throw meal into them then. Hey presto - €1000 weanling.
Who's to say the guy selling at €850 is making more money. He may have a smaller cow with plenty of milk and be feeding far less meal.

Fair point Patsy but don't they say an ounce of breeding is worth a toone of feeding!

tractorporn

djmc wrote:

Beef can be done successfully part time and be somewhat insulated by having an off farm job or other income. I can see more part time beef and drystock farmers in the future and less pig and dairy farmers The ones left will be larger more efficient and have better type farmland.

Personally I think that the consequences of Brexit and TTIP will depress incomes from beef to such an extent that even small scale part time farming will only be kept going by the most dedicated of lads.

I fear a time will come where we have poor access to our major beef export market leading to a situation like our dairy brothers of excess supply and downward pressure on price.

patsy_mccabe

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

Fair point Patsy but don't they say an ounce of breeding is worth a toone of feeding!

Ya, but the emphasis now is on breeding for profit not on output (as in a good price for weanling sales).
When ICBF give an animal 5* for terminal index for example, it means that they are in the top 20% for profit.

solerina

TITANIUM. wrote: »

I can see this thread degenerating into another suckler and beef man thrashing session by our well heeled dairy brethren.
Could they survive as many bad years as we've had tho? I'm not so sure.

well heeled with very short memories....they deride all other farming exploits when milk is going well....and are awful whingers when milk is going bad -well the crowd around us are anyway !!.
Rant over.

Count Mondego

solerina wrote: »

well heeled with very short memories....they deride all other farming exploits when milk is going well....and are awful whingers when milk is going bad -well the crowd around us are anyway !!.
Rant over.

Weren't we all supposed to go contract rearing heifers for them, as the only future for beef farmers?

Jaysus Christ

Count Mondego wrote: »

Weren't we all supposed to go contract rearing heifers for them, as the only future for beef farmers?

Would that be called a "feeder farm".

_Brian

A country like Ireland that must export 90% of the beef produced is always going to be in a precarious position. Further globalisation of the beef industry through trade deals will only worsen the problem. Same for restrictions being looked for on live animal exports by the animal rights brigade.
I'd say the next five years will see a continuation of the current tends with downward pressures on profits. Maybe for anything only large holdings part time is the future for beef, but I'm not sure that sufficient amenable jobs are out there, it is only a certain type of job that facilitates a suckler herd or losses could mount quickly.

It will be interesting to see how the profitability of dairy beef pans out in that five years. I think it has potential but calf prices are a concern in general.

Never wrestle with pigs

Ship as many dairy bull calvs out of the country as possible is the best solution. Lads paying to much for them and flooding the market is what Larry wants.

Muckit

Sure larry is retiring

weatherbyfoxer

The future is cheap dairy beef...produced with little cost as possible,..margins will reduce on an on going basis so scale will be required..most suckle herds are a dead duck with alot of farmer keeping them as a matter of interest and being stuck in their ways...for example if you talk to alot of the farmers in the weanling sales..the havent a clue how much it's costing them to produce a weaning.."sure them cows would eat you out of house and home"..is the hight of the costings

50HX

most suckle herds are a dead duck with alot of farmer keeping them as a matter of interest and being stuck in their ways...


that's a bit of a sweeping statement to say the least

wouldn't be so quick to paint all suckler farmers the same

personally i do ok out of it and it's a nice add on at the end of the year and allows OH to go part time which is great for us and the kids........wouldn't be able to do that if it was a "dead duck"

all forms of farming require an interest and within all aspects of employment you'll find people stuck in their ways

weatherbyfoxer

50HX wrote: »

most suckle herds are a dead duck with alot of farmer keeping them as a matter of interest and being stuck in their ways...


that's a bit of a sweeping statement to say the least

wouldn't be so quick to paint all suckler farmers the same

personally i do ok out of it and it's a nice add on at the end of the year and allows OH to go part time which is great for us and the kids........wouldn't be able to do that if it was a "dead duck"

all forms of farming require an interest and within all aspects of employment you'll find people stuck in their ways

Most I know of 50hx ...not saying everyone's suckler enterprise is a dead duck..what I'm saying is most don't even know there costs..

_Brian

I don't think it's as simple as let's all do dairy beef or let's all go AI suckler.

What is likely to happen is enterprises which are well ran and keep costs under control will survive.

Not every farm is suitable for sucklers and not everyone can tear suck calves.

I don't think the full problem is efficient farming either, I'd have grave concerns that markets are going to be there to consume the volume of beef being produced through ANY system.

An then the ever increasing nut job in me is disillusioned with current intensive farming techniques. I don't like the bigger, more units lower margins farming that is being peddled to farmers and which many are happy to follow down the rabbit hole. Locally produced meats and foods with little to no food miles is a far more desirable product.

Miname

weatherbyfoxer wrote: »

Most I know of 50hx ...not saying everyone's suckler enterprise is a dead duck..what I'm saying is most don't even know there costs..

Most lads have a good idea what their costs are they just aren't going to tell everyone, especially not when they know all their costs will be questioned and scrutinised and ridiculed. Sometimes it's just better to say "aah sure I wouldn't have a clue about those things". Everyone thinks they know better how to run their neighbours farm, let them concentrate on their own system and not keep knocking everyone else's. From my own point of view a decent 650 kg cow with a bit of breeding is what works. Semi intensive, feeding creep( the no meal didn't work for me) and trying to hit export grade cattle. All I know is some positivity is what's needed not the crap about its nearly all over for us sh1te. It's going to have be a bad day for me to give up suckling, I may have to tweak to suit requirements but that's down to me.

whelan2

Do many beef/suckler farmers do a profit monitor?

TITANIUM.

whelan2 wrote: »

Do many beef/suckler farmers do a profit monitor?

Why wouldn't we?

whelan2

TITANIUM. wrote: »

Why wouldn't we?

It was a question not needing a defensive answer , was just wondering do many actually complete a profit monitor, I know there is a very bad rate of dairy farmers who complete one. Most just work off others farmers figures and assume theirs are the same

TITANIUM.

whelan2 wrote: »

It was a question not needing a defensive answer , was just wondering to many actually complete a profit monitor, I know there is a very bad rate of dairy farmers who complete one. Most just work off others farmers figures and assume theirs are the same

Now now be honest.
It was a question based on a assumption.

whelan2

TITANIUM. wrote: »

Now now be honest.
It was a question based on a assumption.

What percentage of beef/suckler farmers complete a profit monitor? Think something like 10% of dairy farmers do

Bullocks

whelan2 wrote: »

Do many beef/suckler farmers do a profit monitor?

We don't anyhow but we are a probably behind with that kinda stuff . I'd have a good idea where money is going from my head and of course at the end of the year its easy tell if you're in profit or not .
There's some lads that don't even file accounts not to mind do a profit monitor!

Muckit

Bullocks wrote: »

There's some lads that don't even file accounts not to mind do a profit monitor!

Controversial!

charolais0153

Its very hard see if the ewes or cows are making more so it is difficult to see the cost of the cow

Muckit

Tip along nice and handy. Join every scheme. Keep costs to a minimum. Keep educated and try and adopt new technologies and methodologies to get the most out of grass.

This is my plan anyhow to stay in beef!

Kovu

Sorry, only seen the post about adding a poll now so added one.

Personally we're going to continue on in certain schemes that suit marginal land like GLAS. Our fertiliser costs are minimal as we are low stocked and I'm going to try and get a few more PBs on the go. Training and all that takes time but if you're adding value to the animal while doing it, makes the work a little easier. Contractor costs can't get much lower, only slurry and baling once a year and we all tip away helping each other out so get good rates there too.

Now if I can just get dad to stop trying to feed the calves so much, that would be great!

cjmc11

Reduce meal and fertilizer, buy cheap average quality heifers in the spring,keep for the summer for minimal cost, sell off again in autumn, try at least to break even with them, if I make a bit it'll be a bonus, will buy just enough to cover anc requirements. Have bps and anc as profit.
Sounds cynical I know but its about the only system that will suit me considering working away from home, with average to poor quality, fragmented land.
Will have no hassle or high costs during the winter, no silage, no slurry, plenty of time for any maintenance that needs to be done for the year ahead, fencing etc.

CloughCasey1

cjmc11 wrote: »

Reduce meal and fertilizer, buy cheap average quality heifers in the spring,keep for the summer for minimal cost, sell off again in autumn, try at least to break even with them, if I make a bit it'll be a bonus, will buy just enough to cover anc requirements. Have bps and anc as profit.
Sounds cynical I know but its about the only system that will suit me considering working away from home, with average to poor quality, fragmented land.
Will have no hassle or high costs during the winter, no silage, no slurry, plenty of time for any maintenance that needs to be done for the year ahead, fencing etc.

Sorry now if this sounds harsh but that is not farming. That is milking what you can from each and any scheme going.

weatherbyfoxer

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

Sorry now if this sounds harsh but that is not farming. That is milking what you can from each and any scheme going.

That's is a bit harsh...please define farming cloughcasey?..end of the day it's a business that is suppose to make an profit and if that's the way that person is going to do it fair play!..

carrollsno1

weatherbyfoxer wrote: »

That's is a bit harsh...please define farming cloughcasey?..end of the day it's a business that is suppose to make an profit and if that's the way that person is going to do it fair play!..

Hes still farming just farming the system though thats all

cjmc11

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

Sorry now if this sounds harsh but that is not farming. That is milking what you can from each and any scheme going.

Nope it ain't, plenty of schemes goin that I could join but they're not financially viable for me, glas, bdgp, btap etc. wont be joining any of them. Long story short, , there isn't, or at least many, drystock farms in Ireland that would make a decent income per hour worked without bps or anc. I'll still be producing cattle, and as some others have already said, just because you have the best cattle doesn't mean you're making the most profit. Everyone's perspective is different, but with my circumstances, that's the only way farming will be viable for me.

CloughCasey1

weatherbyfoxer wrote: »

That's is a bit harsh...please define farming cloughcasey?..end of the day it's a business that is suppose to make an profit and if that's the way that person is going to do it fair play!..

Thread is called future of beef farming not armchair farming. Farming as a business for me is trying to make profit before any other payments are taken into consideration.

cjmc11

weatherbyfoxer wrote: »

That's is a bit harsh...please define farming cloughcasey?..end of the day it's a business that is suppose to make an profit and if that's the way that person is going to do it fair play!..

Exactly, no point being a hero working night and day for little or no reward, we all know there's plenty of them about as it is, they'll farm no matter what it costs.
Well I can say now that I wont be one of them, if its making a few bob then great, if not and its costing me money, then it'll be changed or dropped no problem and I wont apologize to anyone for doing it.

coolshannagh28

In a subsidised system if you are lucky the subsidy is your profit

Alibaba

cjmc11 wrote: »

Reduce meal and fertilizer, buy cheap average quality heifers in the spring,keep for the summer for minimal cost, sell off again in autumn, try at least to break even with them, if I make a bit it'll be a bonus, will buy just enough to cover anc requirements. Have bps and anc as profit.
Sounds cynical I know but its about the only system that will suit me considering working away from home, with average to poor quality, fragmented land.
Will have no hassle or high costs during the winter, no silage, no slurry, plenty of time for any maintenance that needs to be done for the year ahead, fencing etc.

I'm with you there. Will be doing the same myself.

Limestone Cowboy

Miname wrote: »

Most lads have a good idea what their costs are they just aren't going to tell everyone, especially not when they know all their costs will be questioned and scrutinised and ridiculed. Sometimes it's just better to say "aah sure I wouldn't have a clue about those things". Everyone thinks they know better how to run their neighbours farm, let them concentrate on their own system and not keep knocking everyone else's. From my own point of view a decent 650 kg cow with a bit of breeding is what works. Semi intensive, feeding creep( the no meal didn't work for me) and trying to hit export grade cattle. All I know is some positivity is what's needed not the crap about its nearly all over for us sh1te. It's going to have be a bad day for me to give up suckling, I may have to tweak to suit requirements but that's down to me.

Ah your deluded miname, the future is buying screws of Angus calves for 300 quid, put about 150 into them and hope they are worth 600 as yearlings. You'll only need about 200 of them to have a handy wage out of it and 10 minutes before work in the morning should look after them and them pollys are hardy so you can take the weekends off. Easy money!

Bullocks

Kovu wrote: »

Now if I can just get dad to stop trying to feed the calves so much, that would be great!

For the last year or more nuts are fairly cheap feeding , I'd lash it into them if they aren't scouring . All the more weight for selling , unless you will get the same money for lighter weanlins .

A way I'd like to see beef and sucklers measured is in kg's of beef out the gate every year and all the costs aswell taken out of kg of beef

smokey-fitz

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

weatherbyfoxer wrote: »

That's is a bit harsh...please define farming cloughcasey?..end of the day it's a business that is suppose to make an profit and if that's the way that person is going to do it fair play!..

Thread is called future of beef farming not armchair farming. Farming as a business for me is trying to make profit before any other payments are taken into consideration.

I wouldn't call it armchair farming. If you were to work a full time job and keep cattle, maintain the place, in all reality your probably working harder than most full time beef lads. I agree with lads doing this, their getting better income per hour worked. No point breaking your back all year for maybe 5 or 10k if your lucky.

Miname

smokey-fitz wrote: »

I wouldn't call it armchair farming. If you were to work a full time job and keep cattle, maintain the place, in all reality your probably working harder than most full time beef lads. I agree with lads doing this, their getting better income per hour worked. No point breaking your back all year for maybe 5 or 10k if your lucky.

The future of beef farming doesn't look great if we can't decide what beef farming is.😞

patsy_mccabe

I'm still trying to figure out how to run the place with as little hassle as possible. That ain't easy at times.

kevthegaff

On owned land rearing fresian calves from 2 weeks at say 100 euro, what profit if any would be made?

blue5000

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

Ah your deluded miname, the future is buying screws of Angus calves for 300 100 quid, put about 150 200 into them and hope they are worth 600 as yearlings. You'll only need about 200 of them to have a handy wage out of it and 10 minutes before work in the morning should look after them and them pollys are hardy so you can take the weekends off. Easy money!

Fixed that for you:D:D:D

Graze them on paddocks ahead of half the suckler cows you have now, just in case somebody wants a bit of quality beef in the future.

I can see the day where consumers will want beef with 0 movements, born, reared and perhaps slaughtered on the farm they were born on with no movements. This would be done with a mobile slaughter house, 2 or 3 artic lorries joined together, cattle walk in one end and go into a fridge at the other end with the belly waste, etc. being re-cycled on farm.