"Ladies" and "Gents" on toilet doors = discrimination

HighLine

A transgender woman has won her bid to have a ferry firm remove the words "ladies" and "gents" from its toilets.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-jersey-36376857

World. Gone. Mad.

Lyaiera

Madness. Crazy world. I give up. Let them do what they want. I'll just sit here and go about my business while the very foundations of society collapse around me.

Minderbinder

He'll obviously do anything for attention.

Dempsey

Man/Woman symbols were fine by her because its all abour how a person identifies themselves, but Ladies & Gents were indirect discrimination? Thats a nonsence.

She was right that she shouldnt have been told to used the disabled toilets. ****ing numpties at the ferry company

Sand

Seems like the company has sidestepped the issue by simply replacing the words with symbols of a man, a woman and a person in a wheelchair. The world sleeps easier.

It does highlight that well intentioned laws intended to address actual discrimination have often given a platform to cranks to waste court time with frivolous issues.

_Kaiser_

The blame here has to be the eejits on the tribunal for entertaining this nonsense.

Far too many precious snowflakes out there who too many others are terrified of offending leading to idiotic decisions like this.

cowboyBuilder

A transgender "woman" has won "her" bid to have a ferry firm remove the words "ladies" and "gents" from its toilets.


Fixed that for the BBC.

Mod-Banned

RayM

I remember a restaurant in town (yeah, town) in the '90s had "The Olivia Newton John" and "The Elton John" on its toilet doors. I think it was the Chicago Pizza Pie Factory.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Why do we all have to be inconvenienced to accommodate 0.3% of the world's population. How self entitled do you have to be to make such a demand.

This is not funny.

the_barfly1

Change the signs to "Penises" and "Vaginas". Whichever one you have, thats your jacks. Eunuchs get a choice.

kneemos

If she's transgender is she not a lady?

cowboyBuilder

kneemos wrote: »

If she's transgender is she not a lady?

Of course she's not, but we must be PC here.

The Backwards Man

Just put 'stand to pee' and 'sit to pee' on them, and you can pish whatever way you want.

osarusan

She had also said the use of words rather than symbols on toilets amounted to indirect discrimination.

I don't actually understand what this means.

Call Me Jimmy

Ms Bisson has since approved changes to the Condor toilets which now have symbols representing men and women, and not words. Male and female toilets are still separate."

Are words not symbols too?

I would have thought the images would be worse, what with their unrealistic expectations for men not to have penises and women not to have tits (or hair).

RayM

cowboyBuilder wrote: »

Of course she's not, but we must be PC here.

It's not about being PC. It's about not being an arsehole. It costs you nothing to refer to people by whichever pronoun they prefer.

Lyaiera

Vic Tanner Davy, chair of Trans* Jersey, said while the group was "pleased" the tribunal had found in favour of a transgender person, the community preferred "the approach of education" rather than "litigation" against employers.

This lad has his head on straight. Even he thinks she was mad to do this. Just use the fecking bathroom. No-one cares. Ringing them up to ask what bathroom to use is like challenging them to **** up. If you got on the boat, and had to take a piss, take a piss. The people working on the boat don't care, the people travelling on the boat don't care. The only person who cared was her. And some people in redneck America, and some students in various universities.

Grandeeod

osarusan wrote: »

I don't actually understand what this means.

Likewise.

Sand

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

How is it inconveniencing anyone

Court time and taxpayer money being spent on a non-issue instead of a genuine case?

candy-gal1

just another way things are going arseways lol , people wanting extra respect because of their choices/ways of life, excuse me but thats your choice if you want to change gender or whatever etc, dont be putting it on the rest of us to change how things have always been!

Maximus Alexander

OH MY GOD I'M SO ANGRY ABOUT THIS THING I JUST FOUND OUT ABOUT!!

smash

I'm offended that the new signs only depict white people! Rabble rabble rabble

Lyaiera

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

OH MY GOD I'M SO ANGRY ABOUT THIS THING I JUST FOUND OUT ABOUT!!

This thing that's been happening for years while no gave two ****es, but now the BBC are talking about it so I must care too.

kneemos

osarusan wrote: »

I don't actually understand what this means.

They don't allow for the third gender I.e.transgender.Symbols could be either.

smash

kneemos wrote: »

They don't allow for the third gender I.e.transgender.Symbols could be either.

I guess the easy way around it is to put some boobs and a cock on the guy in the wheelchair!

ZeitgeistGlee

Ms Bisson has since approved changes to the Condor toilets which now have symbols representing men and women, and not words. Male and female toilets are still separate.

She had also said the use of words rather than symbols on toilets amounted to indirect discrimination.

Legitimately pretty confused by this, can someone explain why would symbols be more appropriate? I can understand her being unhappy with being told to use the disabled toilet as against the women's restroom but I fail to see how changing Ladies and Gents from text to symbols does anything to address this.

_Kaiser_

kneemos wrote: »

They don't allow for the third gender I.e.transgender.Symbols could be either.

Because there is no third gender.

You're either male or female. If you consider yourself transgender then just use the toilet for the gender you identify with.

Ohbethehokey

Next the man in the symbol will have to be wearing a skirt

That'll confuse the feck out of us

_Kaiser_

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

Legitimately pretty confused by this, can someone explain why would symbols be more appropriate? I can understand her being unhappy with being told to use the disabled toilet as against the women's restroom but I fail to see how changing Ladies and Gents from text to symbols does anything to address this.

To be fair to whoever answered the phone, I'd say that they were trying to pick the most "neutral" option in an attempt to prevent offence.

It seems more like a deliberate attempt at attention seeking to me. If they consider themselves female just use the ladies toilet. Calling in advance just seems to me like they were looking to be offended no matter what was said.

osarusan

kneemos wrote: »

They don't allow for the third gender I.e.transgender.Symbols could be either.

I don't think that makes it any clearer.

So there used to be the word 'Ladies' on the door, but now there is the symbol for 'Ladies' (probably similar to this). What has changed exactly?

She said that "Gender is down to identity, symbols is one way of dealing with this" but what does mean - she identifies with the symbol that indicates the Ladies toilet but not the word Ladies that denotes the same thing?

Bearing in mind that according to the report, 'Male and female toilets are still separate'.

Ruu

A trough for everyone and be done with it.

Lyaiera

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

Legitimately pretty confused by this, can someone explain why would symbols be more appropriate? I can understand her being unhappy with being told to use the disabled toilet as against the women's restroom but I fail to see how changing Ladies and Gents from text to symbols does anything to address this.

I have no idea. I'm far more offended when they write the words in Irish, sneakily trying to teach me my native tongue, or they have three dancing bears on one and a tortoise on another and I'm left standing their clueless what that represents.

Sleeper12

I don't see what's wrong with unisex toilets. Grease was the first country I saw them in & that was 35 years ago. I've used them in many countries.
I've always found it odd having separate toilets. It always reminds me of toilets for whites & toilets for blacks in the states

The Backwards Man

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Just put 'stand to pee' and 'sit to pee' on them, and you can pish whatever way you want.

Hey i might want to sit and pee?! Your discriminating against my right to choose

Lyaiera

Deleted User wrote: »

Hey i might want to sit and pee?! Your discriminating against my right to choose

Then you go in the sit to pee room. That's literally what he said.

kneemos

osarusan wrote: »

I don't think that makes it any clearer.

So there used to be the word 'Ladies' on the door, but now there is the symbol for 'Ladies' (probably similar to this). What has changed exactly?

Bearing in mind that according to the report, 'Male and female toilets are still separate'.

Some people don't feel either male or female or consider themselves a mix of both

me_irl

Buckle up Buckaroos!

smash

kneemos wrote: »

Some people don't feel either male or female or consider themselves a mix of both

If you're on a boat you can just pee over the side then.

feargale

Voltaire, Rousseau and other Enlightenment figures made a stand for free expression. That means tolerance of, and indeed respect for those opinions one disagrees with as well as those one agrees with. PC is fine to challenge gratuitously bolshie behaviour, but it has become a vehicle for bullies and cranks and those who want to shut down debate on their pet allegiances. You only have to declare your pet project a human rights issue to stifle debate about it. In short, we have gone backwards on open dialogue, disussion and debate. And we are far too indulging of those who have suffered wrongs in the past. Two wrongs don't make a right. Lazy thinking has led to publichouse self-estimated intellectuals sacrificing independence of judgement to straitjacket ideology. Is this anywhere more apparent than in Boards? For the ultra-PC brigade, it is no longer acceptable to hold old-fashioned views, indeed in a case such as this they can get you into trouble. But you can be as rude as hell to people and almost invariably get away with it. Certain people and organisations are fair game to have every indignity heaped on them. Others are sacrosanct.

Lyaiera

Lyaiera wrote: »

Then you go in the sit to pee room. That's literally what he said.

Aaagh, I see now.....its all this pc talk driving my brain scow-wows (plus im tired after a long day)

Lyaiera

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Wouldn't the reasonable solution to have toilets based on sex (i.e, what bits you have between your legs, whether they're there from birth or otherwise), or just have unisex ones?

Nah, it can take a long time to get your bits recombobulated. The current status seems to be people use the bathroom they feel comfortable in everyone gets on with their life such as consuming the pints that necessitated the trip to the lavatory.

ZeitgeistGlee

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

To be fair to whoever answered the phone, I'd say that they were trying to pick the most "neutral" option in an attempt to prevent offence.

It seems more like a deliberate attempt at attention seeking to me. If they consider themselves female just use the ladies toilet. Calling in advance just seems to me like they were looking to be offended no matter what was said.

Maybe, given some reactions over transgendered people using their preferred restrooms I wonder if she was legitimately just trying to avoid confrontation. Honestly I go into the bathroom to relieve myself, I don't give an iota about the accoutrements of someone using it alongside me if the men's room is where they feel they should relieve themselves.

Lyaiera wrote: »

I have no idea. I'm far more offended when they write the words in Irish, sneakily trying to teach me my native tongue, or they have three dancing bears on one and a tortoise on another and I'm left standing their clueless what that represents.

...I'm actually not sure if this is sarcasm or not but I take your point that symbols are more universally understood (if that was the point). However if the meat of the argument is regarding implicit discrimination do visual depictions not imply more strongly than words?

Lyaiera

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

...I'm actually not sure if this is sarcasm or not but I take your point that symbols are more universally understood (if that was the point). However if the meat of the argument is regarding implicit discrimination do visual depictions not imply more strongly than words?

No. I was advocating clear signs, and getting in tizzy over whether it says female or a picture of a stickman in a skirt is ridiculous when there's people using nigh on incomprehensible signs to designate bathrooms. I mean the ones where you actually have to stand in front of the two doors for a good fifteen seconds before giving up and picking the one nearest to you.

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Ah, never mind then

That makes sense too. Not overly bothered by who happens to be in the same bathroom as me, more important things to worry about.

That's the thing. Very few people are bothered, especially in Ireland. We're importing scandal from the American south and the UK universities. The majority of people in Ireland have more important things to worry about like if we'll get a few dry days for summer, and whether they'll have another pint or leave and spend the money on a taco chips. As has been pointed out in other threads, they'll think you a weirdo, they won't understand, but life will go on and we'll all be grand.

Maximus Alexander

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Ah, never mind then :pac:

That makes sense too. Not overly bothered by who happens to be in the same bathroom as me, more important things to worry about.

Same. But I'm reminded of a time I was in Bison Bar and the men's jacks was out of service so they'd stuck a crafty little sign up pointing at the ladies that read "UNISEX TOILET". Went and had a wee and was washing my hands when a young lady came out of a cubicle and went to the sink next to me, did a double take, looked aghast and said "This is the ladies'!"

All right love, we're just two people washing our hands. Everything's going to be just fine.

RayM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Same. But I'm reminded of a time I was in Bison Bar and the men's jacks was out of service so they'd stuck a crafty little sign up pointing at the ladies that read "UNISEX TOILET". Went and had a wee and was washing my hands when a young lady came out of a cubicle and went to the sink next to me, did a double take, looked aghast and said "This is the ladies'!"

All right love, we're just two people washing our hands. Everything's going to be just fine.

That reminds me of a line uttered by Peter O'Toole's character when he used the ladies' toilets in My Favourite Year...

"This is for ladies!"

"So is this, madam, but every now and again I have to run some water through it."

ZeitgeistGlee

Lyaiera wrote: »

No. I was advocating clear signs, and getting in tizzy over whether it says female or a picture of a stickman in a skirt is ridiculous when there's people using nigh on incomprehensible signs to designate bathrooms. I mean the ones where you actually have to stand in front of the two doors for a good fifteen seconds before giving up and picking the one nearest to you.

Ah, fair enough so, and yeah I completely agree though I've been fortunate enough never to come across a set of bathrooms like that.

The Randy Riverbeast

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

To be fair to whoever answered the phone, I'd say that they were trying to pick the most "neutral" option in an attempt to prevent offence.

It seems more like a deliberate attempt at attention seeking to me. If they consider themselves female just use the ladies toilet. Calling in advance just seems to me like they were looking to be offended no matter what was said.

Poor person on the phone was probably terrified. With whats been happening in the US it could have been some religious loon looking to make a big deal that they let children be molested in their bathrooms or a loon who was looking to be offended.

Junkyard Tom

They should make a very special lavatory with a snowflake symbol for people who get offended by being pigeon-holed.

Esel

I don't care what you do, as long as you don't piss or crap on the seat. And flush - especially courtesy flush.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Wouldn't the reasonable solution to have toilets based on sex (i.e, what bits you have between your legs, whether they're there from birth or otherwise), or just have unisex ones?

A reasonable solution would be for this person to not make a big deal about it and get on with their ****ing life.

stefanovich

the_barfly1 wrote:

Change the signs to "Penises" and "Vaginas". Whichever one you have, thats your jacks. Eunuchs get a choice.

What about hermaphrodites?