Why cant one of the big 3 italian clubs do what Bayern do

JakeArmitage

Real Madrid Barcelona and Bayern are the 3 most powerful clubs in Europe in this moment in time, you would expect that from the 2 big Spanish clubs because they are the most attractive to any south American player due to the latin type culture, however 1of the the 3 big Italian clubs AC Milan Juve and Inter should be there too. AC Milan are historically a bigger club than both Bayern and Barca and should have the same pull as both Real and Barca , don't get me wrong Juve still play at a high level in Europe but they are on a par with PSG or City just behind the big 3 , it baffles me how Bayern are able to do it in the German League with only Dortmund as competition?

Flint Fredstone

There isn't anywhere near the amount of money in Italian football as there is in the other big leagues. Dybala is the only Juventus player that cost them over £20m in the last 10 years iirc. Compare that to the most successful teams in Spain, Germany and France over that period and its paltry. Midtable teams in England can blow that out of the water.
Go back a bit further and they were paying record fees for goalkeepers and defenders in Italy. The money isn't there anymore.

Dirty Dingus McGee

The 2 Milan clubs seem to be really really badly run these days so I'd imagine that holds them back a fair bit.

NIMAN

Its all down to money, the top players go to where the big wages and transfer fees are, and thats currently Spain, England and Germany.

Italian football has struggled financially for a long time now. Not sure what kind of money is involved in their TV deals compared to the other 3 leagues?

To be fair to Juve, they are probably the most financially sound. They own their own stadium, unlike most Italian teams and as such get to keep all the income from match day. Plus they are probably the biggest team in Italy as well, so am sure they do well out of marketing deals etc.

And sure Juve have begun to compete with the top teams over the last few seasons.

cowboyBuilder

And isn't the EPL getting more money in the next few years ? so it will swing it even more toward England - which is a good thing, balance needs to be brought back to the game.

Sick of Barca winning the UCL every 2nd year for the last 15 years...

NIMAN

There's always been money in England, its just spent wrongly on a lot of occasions.

From next year they reckon that something like 17 of the 20 EPL teams will be in the top 20 richest teams in the world, joining Madrid, Barca & Bayern.

Thing is, everyone knows this and English teams will be paying well above the odds for any player from abroad.

Cookiemunster

cowboyBuilder wrote: »

And isn't the EPL getting more money in the next few years ? so it will swing it even more toward England - which is a good thing, balance needs to be brought back to the game.

Sick of Barca winning the UCL every 2nd year for the last 15 years...

They've won 4 in the last 15 years and 5 in total. 1992, 2006, 2009, 2011, 2015.

Lucas Hood

Italian football isnt that well supported that probably doesnt help.
45% Of seats go unfilled.

Minderbinder

Actually the biggest problem for Serie A is since the introduction of Financial Fair Play. It couldn't have come at a worse time for Italian football. It makes it impossible to grow quickly through big investment. Internazionale have a wealthy owner but they are forced to grow organically which is difficult with a half empty stadium and TV money that is a drop in the ocean compared to the PL.

NIMAN

How come certain teams seem to be allowed to break the FFP rules and others aren't?

cowboyBuilder

Cookiemunster wrote: »

They've won 4 in the last 15 years and 5 in total. 1992, 2006, 2009, 2011, 2015.

Hoi ! stop spoiling my ranting and mountain making out of molehills with your facts !!

titan18

Juventus probably could atm, but standard of young to mid 20s Italians players or players in Serie A is far behind Germany and the other central European countries. So, even where they are doing it, the talent is at the likes of Sturaro, Zaza, Rugani and Dybala instead of Hummels, Gotze,Kimmich and Lewandowski.

ERG89

titan18 wrote: »

Juventus probably could atm, but standard of young to mid 20s Italians players or players in Serie A is far behind Germany and the other central European countries. So, even where they are doing it, the talent is at the likes of Sturaro, Zaza, Rugani and Dybala instead of Hummels, Gotze,Kimmich and Lewandowski.

Their big talented youngster is Pogba who is wanted by everyone, besides Dybala the other 3 aren't really starters either maybe Rugani soon(who is much better than Kimmich imo).
Hummels and Lewandowski are 27 too so can't be considered that young

CSF

I think too much gets read into the Bayern German domination thing. Obviously their biggest high of this generation was the Champions League win. 6 of the 18 in the match day squad were German. One or 2 more may have been sourced from within the Bundesliga but this isn't that strange. They've signed Gotze, Lewandowski and Hummels since but this isn't that uncommon. They sourced key players like Alaba, Robben, Ribery and more recently Douglas Costa and Xabi Alonso completely externally from their Bundesliga bubble.

Where did Ferguson get Rooney, Ferdinand and Van Persie among plenty others? Do people think Buffon, Chiellini and Bonucci worked their way through the youth system?

astonaidan

CSF wrote: »

I think too much gets read into the Bayern German domination thing. Obviously their biggest high of this generation was the Champions League win. 6 of the 18 in the match day squad were German. One or 2 more may have been sourced from within the Bundesliga but this isn't that strange. They've signed Gotze, Lewandowski and Hummels since but this isn't that uncommon. They sourced key players like Alaba, Robben, Ribery and more recently Douglas Costa and Xabi Alonso completely externally from their Bundesliga bubble.

Where did Ferguson get Rooney, Ferdinand and Van Persie among plenty others? Do people think Buffon, Chiellini and Bonucci worked their way through the youth system?

I agree with you mostly but Alaba came through at Munich, he was a kid when signed from Austria. Thats the difference between Bayern and the other teams though, they have a external pull aswell as a internal pull.
Its a sign you are a top German player if you play for Bayern, even Dortmund dont have this.
In Italy this doesnt exist, it may in the future with the way things are going for Juve but historically Milan are a bigger team.
In Spain well you have Madrid and Barca, Atletico are a great team but its telling that De Gea wants to move to Real even though he was a Atletico player, their is at least two massive clubs here.
The easiest way to look at is how easily it is for Bayern to sign players of there closest rivals in comparison to any other league.
Like it happens, RVP to United, Figo to Real, just not as frequently through the history as it does in Germany, that and the ability to acquire stars from abroad

CSF

astonaidan wrote: »

I agree with you mostly but Alaba came through at Munich, he was a kid when signed from Austria. Thats the difference between Bayern and the other teams though, they have a external pull aswell as a internal pull.
Its a sign you are a top German player if you play for Bayern, even Dortmund dont have this.
In Italy this doesnt exist, it may in the future with the way things are going for Juve but historically Milan are a bigger team.
In Spain well you have Madrid and Barca, Atletico are a great team but its telling that De Gea wants to move to Real even though he was a Atletico player, their is at least two massive clubs here.
The easiest way to look at is how easily it is for Bayern to sign players of there closest rivals in comparison to any other league.
Like it happens, RVP to United, Figo to Real, just not as frequently through the history as it does in Germany, that and the ability to acquire stars from abroad

It actually happens more frequently in England for Man City. Nasri, Sagna, Clichy, Adebayor, Kolo Toure, Sterling, Tevez. Those lads didn't join from Bournemouth or Watford. Sure they pretty much turned one of the biggest clubs in the country isn't their personal feeder club, 5 of those guys came from the same team in a pretty short spell. That's way more like the Bayern we hear about than even Bayern actually are. But people love a narrative.

Also, there have been plenty of really top German players that never donned a Bayern jersey, Ozil and Reus are 2 very obvious examples right now, but at the same time it makes obvious sense that the best German players would gravitate towards the biggest German club. There haven't been lots of elite English players over the years but it's not overly surprising to note that such a high amount played for the biggest club in England too (Ferdinand, Rooney, Carrick, Beckham, Scholes, Neville, Hargreaves).

Obviously it helps both United and Bayern there that they were able to get a lot of these great players young and bring them through themselves. Bayern didn't have to go out and buy Lahm, Muller, Kroos, Schweinsteiger later for big money because they were able to use their big club status to attract many of the best young players there were to offer and actually nurtured them to greatness, something English clubs outside that Fergie class of 95 haven't been great at doing.

astonaidan

CSF wrote: »

It actually happens more frequently in England for Man City. Nasri, Sagna, Clichy, Adebayor, Kolo Toure, Sterling, Tevez. Those lads didn't join from Bournemouth or Watford. Sure they pretty much turned one of the biggest clubs in the country isn't their personal feeder club, 5 of those guys came from the same team in a pretty short spell. That's way more like the Bayern we hear about than even Bayern actually are. But people love a narrative.

Also, there have been plenty of really top German players that never donned a Bayern jersey, Ozil and Reus are 2 very obvious examples right now, but at the same time it makes obvious sense that the best German players would gravitate towards the biggest German club. There haven't been lots of elite English players over the years but it's not overly surprising to note that such a high amount played for the biggest club in England too (Ferdinand, Rooney, Carrick, Beckham, Scholes, Neville, Hargreaves).

Obviously it helps both United and Bayern there that they were able to get a lot of these great players young and bring them through themselves. Bayern didn't have to go out and buy Lahm, Muller, Kroos, Schweinsteiger later for big money because they were able to use their big club status to attract many of the best young players there were to offer and actually nurtured them to greatness, something English clubs outside that Fergie class of 95 haven't been great at doing.

Not really City are a extreme example of getting players in a very short time, Bayern have been cherry picking the top players for years. What City did and what Bayern have and will continue to do is entirely different. Arsenal needed to sell, they were paying a stadium.

Ozil went to Real Madrid another super club and Reus is a true dortmund fan. If Real hadnt wanted Ozil, 100% he would have gone to Bayern.

Three of those players you mentioned came through at United, its hardly a shock they played for them. Off all those players you mentioned Rio is the only player you would say came from a team that was challenging United, Haregreaves ironically was signed from Bayern, not really a domestic rival.
Look at what Bayern did to Dortmund, taking 3/4 of their stars.
Then look back and see what they did to Leverkusen took 3 of their stars(Ze Roberto, Ballack and Lucio) that no team in England/Italy/Spain have ever been able to do over such a sustained time.

I would say Arsenal have brought enough players on, in that they sign them very young and bring them into first team. But look at the Bayern team now its not really home grown, the same with Barcelona but people seem to forget this. Its the same that happened at United when the Becks/etc era finished.

Like I dont disagree with what their doing, Dortmund for one should have clauses that they cant sign for Bayern. But its undeniable that they do weaken the competitors year after year.

CSF

astonaidan wrote: »

Not really City are a extreme example of getting players in a very short time, Bayern have been cherry picking the top players for years. What City did and what Bayern have and will continue to do is entirely different. Arsenal needed to sell, they were paying a stadium.

Ozil went to Real Madrid another super club and Reus is a true dortmund fan. If Real hadnt wanted Ozil, 100% he would have gone to Bayern.

Three of those players you mentioned came through at United, its hardly a shock they played for them. Off all those players you mentioned Rio is the only player you would say came from a team that was challenging United, Haregreaves ironically was signed from Bayern, not really a domestic rival.
Look at what Bayern did to Dortmund, taking 3/4 of their stars.
Then look back and see what they did to Leverkusen took 3 of their stars(Ze Roberto, Ballack and Lucio) that no team in England/Italy/Spain have ever been able to do over such a sustained time.

I would say Arsenal have brought enough players on, in that they sign them very young and bring them into first team. But look at the Bayern team now its not really home grown, the same with Barcelona but people seem to forget this. Its the same that happened at United when the Becks/etc era finished.

Like I dont disagree with what their doing, Dortmund for one should have clauses that they cant sign for Bayern. But its undeniable that they do weaken the competitors year after year.

If you don't like the Ozil or Reus examples, try Moller, Sammer and Ricken. How many of the Dortmund Champions League winning team ended up at Bayern? Bayern cherry picking Dortmund is something that has only elevated in the last 3 years. A similarly short timeframe to the City one.

astonaidan

CSF wrote: »

If you don't like the Ozil or Reus examples, try Moller, Sammer and Ricken. How many of the Dortmund Champions League winning team ended up at Bayern? Bayern cherry picking Dortmund is something that has only elevated in the last 3 years. A similarly short timeframe to the City one.

But thats one team, actually have a look back and see that their has never been a continuous rival, this has been the case for as long as Ive followed football Dortmund nearly went broke trying to match Bayern, this is going back to Matthaus and Effenberg. This isnt a modern phenom.

CSF

astonaidan wrote: »

But thats one team, actually have a look back and see that their has never been a continuous rival, this has been the case for as long as Ive followed football Dortmund nearly went broke trying to match Bayern, this is going back to Matthaus and Effenberg. This isnt a modern phenom.

Yeah but the argument wasnt whether Bayern are a German superpower whose strength makes them impossible to keep up with longterm, just that their transfer strategy isn't much different from the rest of the big clubs around the world. Bayern have just over the last couple of years done things much better than the rest. Before that they've had plenty of seasons where they've let things slip and has somebody else has taken advantage.

astonaidan

CSF wrote: »

Yeah but the argument wasnt whether Bayern are a German superpower whose strength makes them impossible to keep up with longterm, just that their transfer strategy isn't much different from the rest of the big clubs around the world. Bayern have just over the last couple of years done things much better than the rest. Before that they've had plenty of seasons where they've let things slip and has somebody else has taken advantage.

Thats just it, I think their strategy is different in that they have the ability to acquire the top stars and this is long term thing that just doesnt exist in other countries (Excluding France where PSG have that ability but thats kinda a new thing)
Just because they can sign all the best players in the league doesnt mean they will win everything. Valencia and Leicester have shown this.
Anyways I think were just going around in circles and we have more important things to disagree about in the Villa forum :(

NIMAN

The cherry picking is going to only get worse in the future as the rich get richer.

deaddonkey15

CSF wrote: »

I think too much gets read into the Bayern German domination thing. Obviously their biggest high of this generation was the Champions League win. 6 of the 18 in the match day squad were German. One or 2 more may have been sourced from within the Bundesliga but this isn't that strange. They've signed Gotze, Lewandowski and Hummels since but this isn't that uncommon. They sourced key players like Alaba, Robben, Ribery and more recently Douglas Costa and Xabi Alonso completely externally from their Bundesliga bubble.

Where did Ferguson get Rooney, Ferdinand and Van Persie among plenty others? Do people think Buffon, Chiellini and Bonucci worked their way through the youth system?

Or 11.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012%E2%80%9313_FC_Bayern_Munich_season#Squad.2C_appearances_and_goals

CSF wrote: »

It actually happens more frequently in England for Man City. Nasri, Sagna, Clichy, Adebayor, Kolo Toure, Sterling, Tevez. Those lads didn't join from Bournemouth or Watford. Sure they pretty much turned one of the biggest clubs in the country isn't their personal feeder club, 5 of those guys came from the same team in a pretty short spell. That's way more like the Bayern we hear about than even Bayern actually are. But people love a narrative.

Tevez wasn't sold by United, United turned down the option to sign him after his loan spell. It was no secret that he wanted to stay at United. Liverpool are a midtable club, City haven't won the title in 2 years. Them selling Stirling to City isn't the same as Dortmund selling Hummels or Lewandowski to Bayern. Same with Arsenal, you might have a point if Arsenal were the only challengers to a City team that regularly win the title. The fact is that there are 4 of 5 teams that can potentially win the title in England, and City have only ever won it twice so it's not like they're the dominant force at the expense of everyone else like Bayern are in Germany.