Landlord claiming abnormal wear and tear

david85

Hi,
Wondering if anyone can help me with a problem we are having with our landlord. We have been living in a rent accommodation for 2 and 1/2 years and decided to move house. While living in the house we had two leather sofa which came with the house. We had covered the sofas with rugs (as we didn't like the cold leather on legs). The leather on the sofa then began to crack and rip. We informed the landlord about the sofa and she did nothing about it til 5/6 weeks later when she changed them. So we are now Moving and tshe is refusing to pay any of our deposit back as she said that it was abnormal wear and tear. What defines "abnormal wear and tear". Also the sofa was bought in reids in 2007. Hope someone can help me with this.

lollsangel

david85 wrote: »

Hi,
Wondering if anyone can help me with a problem we are having with our landlord. We have been living in a rent accommodation for 2 and 1/2 years and decided to move house. While living in the house we had two leather sofa which came with the house. We had covered the sofas with rugs (as we didn't like the cold leather on legs). The leather on the sofa then began to crack and rip. We informed the landlord about the sofa and she did nothing about it til 5/6 weeks later when she changed them. So we are now Moving and tshe is refusing to pay any of our deposit back as she said that it was abnormal wear and tear. What defines "abnormal wear and tear". Also the sofa was bought in reids in 2007. Hope someone can help me with this.

You'd need to ask her firstly what she is claiming as abnormal wear and tear. Walls needing a luck of paint would be normal, having to fill holes wouldn't. I bought a leather sofa in 2004, it's still going strong if a little age worn now, that might be to do with quality though.

ohmplate

I have a leather sofa bought 5 years ago that is literally stripping off on the cushions. It's extremely cheap though.

I'd ask to see receipts for the sofas.

The Randy Riverbeast

lollsangel wrote: »

You'd need to ask her firstly what she is claiming as abnormal wear and tear. Walls needing a luck of paint would be normal, having to fill holes wouldn't. I bought a leather sofa in 2004, it's still going strong if a little age worn now, that might be to do with quality though.

OP could have bonded leather, although that tends to bubble and peel rather than crack.

MarkAnthony

Hmmm not sure here - rugs on a leather sofa doesn't sound ideal tbh.

duffman13

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Hmmm not sure here - rugs on a leather sofa doesn't sound ideal tbh.

I doubt rugs would have played any part in the cracking. Having bought a leather sofa and armchairs myself in the past on the cheap, I would say the landlord got what they paid for. My sofa was a mess after two years but the company that sold them was defunct.

I'm not sure really what you can do in this situation though unless you can somehow prove you did not cause the cracking in the sofa

j0ey2069

Ask them do they have photographs of the property before you took up residence. Ask for the full inventory of the house too and check against current contents and for damage. Take you own photographs of the house and items within (if you still have access).

Also ask what they believe has been damaged or needs to be put right. For example if there's damage to a plasterboard wall and it will cost 200e to fix the landlord should provide a copy of the receipt for payment of the work and this would then be deducted from the deposit. They can't take the whole deposit for anything, the costs should be deducted from it.

Make their live difficult and ensure that they know you will try to fight to get YOUR money back. Check if they're not a registered landlord here https://portal.prtb.ie/public_registrations.aspx They should be and if not ensure that you let them know you will notify the PRTB. Not being registered means they not paying income tax on the money they're making from the rent and I'm sure Revenue would like to know this...

Too many people let landlords get away with the cash grab of they're deposit. It's no small sum usually and if more people fight them on this the practice will eventually stop happening. Remember at the end if they day it's your money. It was provided as a deposit but they need to know that you will fight to get it back. I've had this happen three times so far and in all cases it ended up sorted due to me doing some of the things above.

I hope that helps you.


Joe.

1moreyr

Did she inform you at the time that you were responsible for the wear and tear and that the cost of the new sofas would be coming out of your deposit? If not then you have a good case with the prtb. How long ago did she replace the sofas?

My landlady did the same thing with me (old appliances replaced during tenancy and she refused to give me back my deposit but at no stage had she informed me that I was responsible) but I took her to the prtb and won my deposit plus damages.

david85

1moreyr wrote: »

Did she inform you at the time that you were responsible for the wear and tear and that the cost of the new sofas would be coming out of your deposit? If not then you have a good case with the prtb. How long ago did she replace the sofas?

My landlady did the same thing with me (old appliances replaced during tenancy and she refused to give me back my deposit but at no stage had she informed me that I was responsible) but I took her to the prtb and won my deposit plus damages.

She replaced the sofas a year and a half ago but never informed us that our deposit was lost then. She even did a walk about last week and said nothing. We had to ask her about it and that's when she told us. Did you argue with your landlord that he should have been noticed or did you just go straight to the prtb.

El_Duderino 09

david85 wrote:

We had covered the sofas with rugs (as we didn't like the cold leather on legs). The leather on the sofa then began to crack and rip.

Hi OP. When you say you covered it in rugs, what exactly do you mean? Rugs are typically used on a floor and could have a hard underside. Do you mean a soft throw?

Even if you did cause damage to the sofa, the LL still needs to provide receipts. Given the age of the sofa you need to work out depreciation and the actual value of the sofa based on its when you moved out. If you damaged an 8 year old sofa, you need to pay the value of an 8 year old sofa rather than a brand new one.

The LL hasn't provided any receipts meaning they are either clueless or they are chancing their arm. The ball is in your court.

david85

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Hi OP. When you say you covered it in rugs, what exactly do you mean? Rugs are typically used on a floor and could have a hard underside. Do you mean a soft throw?

Even if you did cause damage to the sofa, the LL still needs to provide receipts. Given the age of the sofa you need to work out depreciation and the actual value of the sofa based on its when you moved out. If you damaged an 8 year old sofa, you need to pay the value of an 8 year old sofa rather than a brand new one.

The LL hasn't provided any receipts meaning they are either clueless or they are chancing their arm. The ball is in your court.

Sorry yes they were soft throws we put on them. Landlord is saying its abnormal wear and tear. My understanding of abnormal wear and tear is using a piece of equipment other that it's use (eg) having a vacuum cleaner and using it to clean hot coals from fire. The landlords understanding of abnormal wear and tear was if we have a dinning room chair and the base falls off it from sitting on it, that's wear and tear.

Paulw

Sounds to me like the landlord is chancing their arm.

I'd lodge a complaint with the PRTB if I were you, and let the landlord know.

Michael D Not Higgins

david85, I have a leather couch in my rented flat with soft throws on it. We've lived here for 4 years and there isn't a mark on the couch. So, it's one of two things

1. It was a cheap couch and would have done this anyway, e.g. faux leather.
2. It was abnormal wear and tear and you owe something to the landlord.

From the information you've got, you cannot reasonably estimate the amount you could owe the landlord as they haven't provided receipts or a breakdown of charges which you are entitled to. You need to ask for this breakdown of charges so you can dispute anything that's off (there could be other charges the landlord isn't mentioning). If this fails you need to go to the RTB to file a dispute over the deposit.

david85

Paulw wrote: »

Sounds to me like the landlord is chancing their arm.

I'd lodge a complaint with the PRTB if I were you, and let the landlord know.

That's what I thought. We were giving her the benefit to pay us so we wouldn't have to go there but she left use no choice really.

ibarelycare

david85 wrote: »

She replaced the sofas a year and a half ago but never informed us that our deposit was lost then. She even did a walk about last week and said nothing. We had to ask her about it and that's when she told us. Did you argue with your landlord that he should have been noticed or did you just go straight to the prtb.

Wait so you've had new sofas for the past year and a half? You said the ones that were there when you moved in were the leather ones that you put throws over. So is it the new ones that have wear and tear? What's wrong with them?

david85

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

david85, I have a leather couch in my rented flat with soft throws on it. We've lived here for 4 years and there isn't a mark on the couch. So, it's one of two things

1. It was a cheap couch and would have done this anyway, e.g. faux leather.
2. It was abnormal wear and tear and you owe something to the landlord.

From the information you've got, you cannot reasonably estimate the amount you could owe the landlord as they haven't provided receipts or a breakdown of charges which you are entitled to. You need to ask for this breakdown of charges so you can dispute anything that's off (there could be other charges the landlord isn't mentioning). If this fails you need to go to the RTB to file a dispute over the deposit.

We had an assessor look at photos that we had and he said the same thing that it was faux leather. She is saying she handed us a 'perfect' sofa.

david85

ibarelycare wrote: »

Wait so you've had new sofas for the past year and a half? You said the ones that were there when you moved in were the leather ones that you put throws over. So is it the new ones that have wear and tear? What's wrong with them?

Nothing wrong with them ones. She is claiming that she bought these with our deposit but didn't say it to us. She is also saying that she had to pay for the hiring of a van to remove and install sofas

eezipc

That does not seem right.
Also you should ask how much the couch was and compare that with your deposit.

Mention PRTB on the sly but don't threaten her either. People can be stubborn and she may go down the PRTB path just to defend herself.
I went through the PRTB process before and it was horrible. The landlord made up alot of stuff at the meeting that was untrue. I would only use that route if it's a last resort.
Having said that, don't let her get away with keeping your deposit unfairly.

ibarelycare

david85 wrote: »

Nothing wrong with them ones. She is claiming that she bought these with our deposit but didn't say it to us. She is also saying that she had to pay for the hiring of a van to remove and install sofas

So she's trying to take money from your deposit for something that happened 18 months ago? I can't see how she can get away with that. I'd definitely contact the PRTB.

athtrasna

Also remind your LL they they'll be able to claim 12.5% of the cost of the sofa over 8 years as tax relief on rental income. They will get the cost back over time if all is above board.

eezipc

david85 wrote: »

Nothing wrong with them ones. She is claiming that she bought these with our deposit but didn't say it to us. She is also saying that she had to pay for the hiring of a van to remove and install sofas

Ah now. Next thing she will try to claim is that she had to buy new shoes as they were worn down while going to the house to look at the sofa.

Michael D Not Higgins

athtrasna wrote: »

Also remind your LL they they'll be able to claim 12.5% of the cost of the sofa over 8 years as tax relief on rental income. They will get the cost back over time if all is above board.

Well half of the cost anyway since it's tax deductible. The real issue is if it was above normal wear and tear, going by the dates, the couch was at least 7 years old and probably only worth €200 at most which is all she can claim for, not the cost of the new couch.

CramCycle

eezipc wrote: »

Ah now. Next thing she will try to claim is that she had to buy new shoes as they were worn down while going to the house to look at the sofa.

My brothers landlady tried to remove petrol money from the deposit for coming down to inspect the house, some people would try anything. She lived 10 minutes up the road and added the price of 2 litres of petrol onto her deductions.

I think he let her to not have an argument and for the comedic value but it is shocking.

An old land lady of mine tried to charge me for items she left in the apartment, and sent me an itemised bill from a solicitor for the removal of the mirror she left in the hall (along with a load of other issues).

I sent her back the e-mail from her husband detailing the work that they had done and what was left "temporarily" in the apartment a few years previously.

Her solicitor looked at the response and our details on the items she mentioned and we had our full deposit back in a week (although i know the PRTB were not signed up for in hindsight).

athtrasna

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Well half of the cost anyway since it's tax deductible. The real issue is if it was above normal wear and tear, going by the dates, the couch was at least 7 years old and probably only worth €200 at most which is all she can claim for, not the cost of the new couch.

This is why I had an accountant when I was a LL

April 73

The sofas were about 8 years old when the cracking appeared. They were probably faux leather or bonded which has a tendency to do this. You have an assessor's report to show this?
This is not abnormal wear & tear & not your responsibility to pay for new sofas. It is certainly not your responsibility to pay for the delivery & removal of 8 year old couches.
As said the LL can claim the cost of new sofas against her tax bill over 8 years (even the taxman expects sofas to be replaced due to normal wear & tear).
Put your grievance in writing explaining why you don't accept "abnormal wear & tear" and that you expect your deposit back in full (unless there is anything else she is claiming?) within a time-frame. Keep your side of the agreement by making sure the property is clean & tidy & empty on your last day. Take photos to prove that.
If she doesn't play ball, tell her verbally that you will be filing with the PRTB for the return of your deposit & follow up by filing the case if she does not respond.

This is pretty blatant messing by the LL given the info you've provided OP.

awec

We have "leather" sofas in our apartment and they are exactly the same, all cracked and the fake leather peeling off the layer underneath.

I would definitely not accept money being taken out of our deposit to cover this; cheap sofas are cheap for a reason.

ampleforth

david85 wrote: »

Hi,
... 2 and 1/2 years ... we had two leather sofa which came with the house....covered the sofas with rugs ... sofa then began to crack and rip. ...

I think your landlord tries to rip you off. Get some legal advice. I had a friend with a landlord who claimed she had to change bathroom after he left after a year. He never saw his deposit. It was a scam... If you ask her for the bill of the substitute and the bill for the couch she bought before (the one from 2007), you will either find that it is a lot cheaper, or that she actually did not buy a new one because she refuses...

ampleforth

awec wrote: »

We have "leather" sofas in our apartment and they are exactly the same, all cracked and the fake leather peeling off the layer underneath.

I would definitely not accept money being taken out of our deposit to cover this; cheap sofas are cheap for a reason.

Define "leather"... leather does not peel off... you are talking about artificial leather Welcome to the IKEA confused society... My mum has a leather sofa that is 30 years old, nothing peels...

eezipc

CramCycle wrote: »

eezipc wrote: »

Ah now. Next thing she will try to claim is that she had to buy new shoes as they were worn down while going to the house to look at the sofa.

My brothers landlady tried to remove petrol money from the deposit for coming down to inspect the house, some people would try anything. She lived 10 minutes up the road and added the price of 2 litres of petrol onto her deductions.

I think he let her to not have an argument and for the comedic value but it is shocking.

An old land lady of mine tried to charge me for items she left in the apartment, and sent me an itemised bill from a solicitor for the removal of the mirror she left in the hall (along with a load of other issues).

I sent her back the e-mail from her husband detailing the work that they had done and what was left "temporarily" in the apartment a few years previously.

Her solicitor looked at the response and our details on the items she mentioned and we had our full deposit back in a week (although i know the PRTB were not signed up for in hindsight).

A landlady once tried to keep part of my deposit because I left the house in a dirty state. I asked for proof and they showed me a picture of a small pile of dirt at the back door. I had cleaned the house. Kitchen was left till the end and after sweeping the floor, I forgot to put the pile of dirt into the bin. I was lucky though because I took pictures when we moved in and there was dirt everywhere so she eventually had to relent.

Charging petrol money to inspect the house is very very petty though.

Dial Hard

ampleforth wrote: »

Define "leather"... leather does not peel off... you are talking about artificial leather Welcome to the IKEA confused society... My mum has a leather sofa that is 30 years old, nothing peels...

Hence his use of quotation marks.

ted1

Depreciation of furniture is over 8 years. Tell her to take a hike, failing that contact the PRTB

1moreyr

david85 wrote: »

She replaced the sofas a year and a half ago but never informed us that our deposit was lost then. She even did a walk about last week and said nothing. We had to ask her about it and that's when she told us. Did you argue with your landlord that he should have been noticed or did you just go straight to the prtb.

Our landlord did inspection week before we were due to leave, everything was perfect, and only told us when I asked about handing over keys and getting back the deposit. When I told her I would take her to the prtb she told me to get a life. I had the last laugh because I got my original deposit of €600 and damages of €600. Delighted as she had done this before but hopefully will think twice about doing it to a tenant again.

ampleforth

My bad