Accident in car park

howareyoudoin'

Earlier tonight (still happening), my brother parked his minivan in a shopping centre car park. He reversed into the space, photos show that he was perfectly centred between the two lines. With the car stopped & engine off, my sis-in-law opened the passenger door to get out. At the same time another car drove front forward into the empty space next to their car & his front bumper hit her car door. No damage done to my brother's car, but a 2 inch long, deep but thin mark on the other car's front grill & bumper. Other driver claiming it's my brother / sis-in-law's fault, has called guards, has mentioned the sum of €1,000 to fix. My brother does not agree on blame, is waiting for guards & in the mean time has taken a photo & sent to a panel-beater who has said €100-150 to fix. Who is at fault here? My own view is that it's the other driver because my brother was stationary.

Gumbo

The car door was opened without due care and attention in my opinion.
Brother and sister in law at fault would be my opinion here.

antodeco

Where did the other drive appear from? Was he cutting through the space to get to an "exit lane", or was he trying to park in that space?

Also, without quotes, saying €1000 to fix is a bit rich of the guy.

Squidgy Black

kceire wrote: »

The car door was opened without due care and attention in my opinion.
Brother and sister in law at fault would be my opinion here.

+1 it's your sister in laws fault, the car may have been stationary but the door wasn't if that makes sense so she opened it without checking or paying attention.

Uncle Ben

Not a solr but id say the other lad should have been driving with due care and attention.

Squidgy Black

Uncle Ben wrote: »

Not a solr but id say the other lad should have been driving with due care and attention.

It's a little bit hard to anticipate exactly when someone's going to swing a door open into your path as opposed to not opening a door in front of a moving car.

granturismo

Without video I'd guess 50/50 based on the OP.

There's no injuries, I dont see why anyone is waiting for the Gardai to arrive, unless one party is getting aggressive.

Uncle Ben

granturismo wrote: »

Without video I'd guess 50/50 based on the OP.

There's no injuries, I dont see why anyone is waiting for the Gardai to arrive, unless one party is getting aggressive.

Agreed. If its on private property garda will check both parties for insurance and then tell them to sort it out amongst themselves.

howareyoudoin'

Thanks all for the opinions. Guy in other car has insisted on calling guards as he wants to claim against my brother. Brother doesn't think that it is his fault & is very unhappy with the €1,000 costing the guy has mentioned. So, he's not arguing, just not willing to admit blame or to agree to pay €1,000 for a fix.

OttoPilot

Sounds like sister is at fault, car was driving towards her so she should have been able to see it. How fast was she opening it though to cause damage? I would have thought a scratch at most.

Uncle Ben

howareyoudoin' wrote: »

Thanks all for the opinions. Guy in other car has insisted on calling guards as he wants to claim against my brother. Brother doesn't think that it is his fault & is very unhappy with the €1,000 costing the guy has mentioned. So, he's not arguing, just not willing to admit blame or to agree to pay €1,000 for a fix.

Make sure he admits nothing.

ted1

_Tyrrell_ wrote: »

+1 it's your sister in laws fault, the car may have been stationary but the door wasn't if that makes sense so she opened it without checking or paying attention.

Depends how the other car swung in. What if a child had if hopped out?

ted1

It's private property , calling the guards is pointless

Vic_08

Hard to say who is to blame without a video TBH.

Sounds like both are likely guilty of acting without paying enough attention.

Total waste of Gardai time calling them to a small dent, I wish they would start charging these numpties a call-out fee for this sort of crap.

If I was you I would take the guy's details and leave, there is nothing to be gained from arguing with areseholes.

You need to put it all down on paper and contact your and his insurance company, by the sound of it he is going to claim so the best defence is a claim of your own against him. It sounds like he is out for a payday so I wouldn't be surprised if a claim for whiplash appears in the near future as well.

howareyoudoin'

Yeah. I'd say my brother might have been willing to go down the no guards, swap contact details, split 50/50 route based one panel beater from each side quoting, but from what I can tell from sis-in-law text & Viber conversation, other guy went straight to 100% blame & cost to my brother, suggested my brother give him €1,000 to fix & when my brother disagreed, insisted on calling the guards. No wonder out insurance premiums are going up by so much! And totally agree that guards should penalise call outs like these.

colm_mcm

It this had been on the road, you'd say the other guy should have left enough space to overtake the parked car, but my laymans view on this is that the other car was driving into a parking space, which by nature are close to other cars, and there's no other way he could have parked the car in the space. The sister in law opened the door and took up part of the other parking space, she did so without due care and is 1000% to blame here in my opinion.

CiniO

colm_mcm wrote: »

It this had been on the road, you'd say the other guy should have left enough space to overtake the parked car,

Are you saying that if someone opens a door from car parked by the road, and car driving on the road hits it, then it's the driver's fault as he didn't keep enough distance from parked car?

darg

CiniO wrote: »

Are you saying that if someone opens a door from car parked by the road, and car driving on the road hits it, then it's the driver's fault as he didn't keep enough distance from parked car?

Absolutely the drivers fault

colm_mcm

Yeah, but curiously enough, if you opened the door out and a cyclist hit it, it would be the cars fault.
I think it comes down to the insurance companies and the easiest route to settling the claim.
In the driving test, you are supposed to leave a huge distance between your car and a parked one. In practice that's not always the easiest thing to do.
Obviously there are cases where the parked car would be found to be at fault.

Vic_08

darg wrote: »

Absolutely the drivers fault

Nonsense. There are thousands of roads where there is simply not enough room to leave for a door to be swung and if you include large vehicles thousands more.

It is not OK to just launch a door open into traffic regardless of what is passing by, with a car it is damage, for a bike it can be a serious injury.

In a car park space without much more evidence I would say both fix their own and be more careful in the future both swinging open doors and driving into small spaces with people nearby, as the parked car and the other was nose first presumably neither had any reason not to have seen each other.

CramCycle

I thought it sounded like the door was open and the car drove into it, which would make it the drivers fault as he was driving without due care and attention. Or did she open the door as he was moving, in which case it was her fault.

sunny2004

It sounds like she didn't look when she opened the door, period..

Mervyn Skidmore

colm_mcm wrote: »

It this had been on the road, you'd say the other guy should have left enough space to overtake the parked car, but my laymans view on this is that the other car was driving into a parking space, which by nature are close to other cars, and there's no other way he could have parked the car in the space. The sister in law opened the door and took up part of the other parking space, she did so without due care and is 1000% to blame here in my opinion.

Personally I wouldn't agree with this. Say the door had been open for a few seconds and the guy blindly drove into what he thought was an empty space and hit the door, I'd say the guy driving into the space was fully to blame. What the OP is describing sounds like a 50/50 to me and I wouldn't be budging from that. If the guy plucked €1000 out of thin air I'd be wondering about his character too.

sunny2004

Mervyn Skidmore wrote: »

If the guy plucked €1000 out of thin air I'd be...

Calling him David Copperfield

BettePorter

Mervyn Skidmore wrote:

If the guy plucked €1000 out of thin air I'd be wondering about his character too.

Agreed! Once a person instantly starts shouting random cash prices you know they're seeing easy dollar signs rather than common sensically seeing it for what it is ... an accident that id imagine the stationary guy woulda agreed to compensate honestly anyway.

I don't blame him for changing his mind..... people like that sicken my happiness with their constant 'see how much I can get ' attitude.

colm_mcm

Mervyn Skidmore wrote: »

Personally I wouldn't agree with this. Say the door had been open for a few seconds and the guy blindly drove into what he thought was an empty space and hit the door, I'd say the guy driving into the space was fully to blame. What the OP is describing sounds like a 50/50 to me and I wouldn't be budging from that. If the guy plucked €1000 out of thin air I'd be wondering about his character too.

If the door was open, fair enough. But passengers (especially those that aren't car drivers themselves) often horse doors out without looking, whether or not there's a car beside them.

colm_mcm

BettePorter wrote: »

Agreed! Once a person instantly starts shouting random cash prices you know they're seeing easy dollar signs rather than common sensically seeing it for what it is ... an accident that id imagine the stationary guy woulda agreed to compensate honestly anyway.

I don't blame him for changing his mind..... people like that sicken my happiness with their constant 'see how much I can get ' attitude.

Disagree. I know what a bumper costs for my car, and I also know how cheap people who haven't ever repaired a car reckon it should cost.

Mervyn Skidmore

colm_mcm wrote: »

Disagree. I know what a bumper costs for my car, and I also know how cheap people who haven't ever repaired a car reckon it should cost.

Have to disagree with you again, if I damage someone's car I'm not gonna take their word for the price of the repair just on a quick visual straight after the incident. Go off and get an estimate in writing and show it to me.

colm_mcm

Oh yeah, of course, I wouldn't just give him the money.
But I imagine a situation where your car is damaged, you know it's gonna cost, but the other party doesn't seem to be taking it as seriously, you're doubtful that they'll ever actually pay up.
If a passenger of a car hit mine, I'd be on to the guards too.

enoughalready

I've always wondered what is the procedure if involved in a minor accident, like step by step, can anyone give me a rundown and explain how to handle a small crash situation

Mervyn Skidmore

colm_mcm wrote: »

Oh yeah, of course, I wouldn't just give him the money.
But I imagine a situation where your car is damaged, you know it's gonna cost, but the other party doesn't seem to be taking it as seriously, you're doubtful that they'll ever actually pay up.
If a passenger of a car hit mine, I'd be on to the guards too.

Total waste of Garda time though. It's a civil matter between the two parties. If there are no injuries or crimes committed then there's no point in involving the Gardai. If the damage is disputed or the blame is disputed then there are several avenues to sort it out. You can trust nobody these days. Most people are civil and decent but there are a cohort of people out there who, if you knocked their mirror off, would want a replacement mirror, which is fine, and €500 for the stress and mental anguish caused. Get yourself down to your local Circuit Civil Court if you want to listen to some of the personal injury cases if you don't believe me.

colm_mcm

If the guards are willing to come out let them. Having them come out would make any messing on the part of the other party less likely in my eyes.
I know the guards have stuff to do, but there are so many messers out there, and people who will try anything to get out of their responsibilities.
Someone damaging my property is a serious matter to me. Especially when the culprit is standing in front of me. Of course I'll call them.

BorneTobyWilde

Scratch
SCRATCH !!!!
O my stars for the love of Liza
You scratched my bumper !!

BorneTobyWilde

I remember a guy clipping the mirror on my car and smashing it into pieces. In a car park also, he parked up and came over to acknowledge what he did, I say not to worry about it.
Buy that's me I guess.

Mervyn Skidmore

colm_mcm wrote: »

If the guards are willing to come out let them. Having them come out would make any messing on the part of the other party less likely in my eyes.
I know the guards have stuff to do, but there are so many messers out there, and people who will try anything to get out of their responsibilities.
Someone damaging my property is a serious matter to me. Especially when the culprit is standing in front of me. Of course I'll call them.

The first thing they'll ask you is if there are any injuries, if not, for a minor car-park incident they won't come out anyway. It might be a serious matter to you but it happens every day and in the grand scheme of things is not that serious.

colm_mcm

Id tell them I suspected the driver was drunk.

hullaballoo

It's always interesting to read the views on fault in this forum because they are almost neatly 50% wrong, 50% right.

I don't bother posting too much in threads like this but I have a firm view on this.

If you crash into any part of a stationary object, you are at fault. That includes a car whose door isn't open but might open. That's why you are required to give at least a door-width's clearance when going by parked cars.

If you're pulling into a space beside a parked car, you can't give that much clearance but you are still on notice that a door might suddenly open, which puts you at fault if you hit a stationary car's door.

Mervyn Skidmore

colm_mcm wrote: »

Id tell them I suspected the driver was drunk.

Fair enough, waste their time and if they do come out, what do you expect them to do? And if you think it will stop any messing, a lot of people will say there is no injury after the incident but the next day a sore neck will arise.

colm_mcm

hullaballoo wrote: »

It's always interesting to read the views on fault in this forum because they are almost neatly 50% wrong, 50% right.

I don't bother posting too much in threads like this but I have a firm view on this.

If you crash into any part of a stationary object, you are at fault. That includes a car whose door isn't open but might open. That's why you are required to give at least a door-width's clearance when going by parked cars.

If you're pulling into a space beside a parked car, you can't give that much clearance but you are still on notice that a door might suddenly open, which puts you at fault if you hit a stationary car's door.

What's your take on opening doors onto cyclists or motorbikes?

Mervyn Skidmore

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Scratch
SCRATCH !!!!
O my stars for the love of Liza
You scratched my bumper !!

You've scratched my Golf you b*****d! Don't you know that VW only made 29,563,771 of them!

callaway92

Where did the weirdo just magically pull the €1000 figure out of??

I'm also in the category that think he is looking for some sort of a payday, so don't go admitting to anything.

foggy_lad

howareyoudoin' wrote: »

Thanks all for the opinions. Guy in other car has insisted on calling guards as he wants to claim against my brother. Brother doesn't think that it is his fault & is very unhappy with the €1,000 costing the guy has mentioned. So, he's not arguing, just not willing to admit blame or to agree to pay €1,000 for a fix.

Sounds like a bit of a scam the way he immediately looks for €1000.

colm_mcm wrote: »

It this had been on the road, you'd say the other guy should have left enough space to overtake the parked car, but my laymans view on this is that the other car was driving into a parking space, which by nature are close to other cars, and there's no other way he could have parked the car in the space. The sister in law opened the door and took up part of the other parking space, she did so without due care and is 1000% to blame here in my opinion.

If you hit something in front of you(usually anything hit from your front axle forward) you are at fault. As for a car park you should be taking even more care and paying more attention for things like trollies and car doors opening suddenly.

CiniO wrote: »

Are you saying that if someone opens a door from car parked by the road, and car driving on the road hits it, then it's the driver's fault as he didn't keep enough distance from parked car?

Yes.

Vic_08 wrote: »

Nonsense. There are thousands of roads where there is simply not enough room to leave for a door to be swung and if you include large vehicles thousands more.

It is not OK to just launch a door open into traffic regardless of what is passing by, with a car it is damage, for a bike it can be a serious injury.

In a car park space without much more evidence I would say both fix their own and be more careful in the future both swinging open doors and driving into small spaces with people nearby, as the parked car and the other was nose first presumably neither had any reason not to have seen each other.

While it is not ok and people opening car doors should always check before opening the driver who hits a stationary vehicle is generally seen to be at fault.

Rothmans

Uncle Ben wrote: »

Agreed. If its on private property garda will check both parties for insurance and then tell them to sort it out amongst themselves.

Same if it's on public property. Guards have no duty to investigate.

jupiler_beer

Mervyn Skidmore wrote: »

You've scratched my Golf you b*****d! Don't you know that VW only made 29,563,771 of them!

Some people take great pride in their cars (property) like washing & waxing the car, I usually spend 2-3 hours doing this. Every 4 months or so get a full valet at a cost of €120. When i park in carparks I usually park far away with the hope nobody will part beside me in the fear that they dent or scratch my car.

I remember one incident where this person was loading their shopping in to the back seats of the car. They kept banging her car door off my door, after a couple of bangs I had enough and got out to confront this person. The person showed no respect of my property so i asked to exchange insurance details. They said fine as they didn't care as it was a company vehicle. To make matters worse when they opened the drivers door to get details, they slammed that door of my car as well.

So a scratch can mean a lot and is not a cheap fix, as panel needs to be resprayed. The person involved had to pay for 2 door panels to be resprayed

wonski

foggy_lad wrote: »

Sounds like a bit of a scam the way he immediately looks for €1000.

If you hit something in front of you(usually anything hit from your front axle forward) you are at fault. As for a car park you should be taking even more care and paying more attention for things like trollies and car doors opening suddenly.

Yes.


While it is not ok and people opening car doors should always check before opening the driver who hits a stationary vehicle is generally seen to be at fault.

Not really. Hitting a stationary vehicle is different than hitting moving car door

It is advised to drive a door length away, but where is the limit? Some cars need more space than others....

If you open the door you need to check what's around you.

ironclaw

I'd take the same line as hullaballoo. If you are driving past a row of parked cars on the street, you have to be on the look out for someone walking out between them or a door opening, either by leaving ample room for said door to open or driving with due car and attention. If its narrow enough that a door opening is likely to be hit and you can't leave room, you should be crawling along anyway. Same would apply in a car park, if I'm going to swing into a space, I'm going to take it nice and easy, and at a rate where I can stop if someone jumps out of the car. I'd also make a point of seeing if the car was empty or if someone was preparing to alight. Its not uncommon for kids to just bolt out.

Basically, if I hit a stationery object, I'd consider myself at fault and I can't for the life of me fathom why it would be the other way around. You are in control of a moving object, you should retain enough control to stop within reasonable grounds.

frostyjacks

If the minivan reversed into the parking space, and the other car drove in nose first beside it, then that sounds like yer man drove into the open door, so it's mostly his fault. What speed would he be parking the car that he couldn't stop in time before clipping the door?

Cabaal

ironclaw wrote: »

You are in control of a moving object, you should retain enough control to stop within reasonable grounds.

So if a motorist opens a door infront of a cyclist you blame the cyclist because they should have stopped in your view?

Boskowski

I'd say its 50:50. Car park or not one would still have to pay attention whether its safe to open the door or not. On the other hand when pulling into a car park space - especially when the car next to you also just pulled in and has people still sitting in the car - also requires due care.
When it comes to what is just it depends on many factors. Like did the other car pull in fast and unexpectedly? Was the door opened fast and unexpectedly? Did the other car pull in from the rear or the front bladibla...?
But realistically nobody (a judge? lol )will look at those finer points in such a marginal accident. It would be ridiculous. The insurance companies will simply be settling between them for whats the cheapest solution to this. And I bet it will be shared 60:40, 50:50 or such.

Del2005

ironclaw wrote: »

I'd take the same line as hullaballoo. If you are driving past a row of parked cars on the street, you have to be on the look out for someone walking out between them or a door opening, either by leaving ample room for said door to open or driving with due car and attention. If its narrow enough that a door opening is likely to be hit and you can't leave room, you should be crawling along anyway. Same would apply in a car park, if I'm going to swing into a space, I'm going to take it nice and easy, and at a rate where I can stop if someone jumps out of the car. I'd also make a point of seeing if the car was empty or if someone was preparing to alight. Its not uncommon for kids to just bolt out.

Basically, if I hit a stationery object, I'd consider myself at fault and I can't for the life of me fathom why it would be the other way around. You are in control of a moving object, you should retain enough control to stop within reasonable grounds.

If you open a door in front of a cyclist or pedestrian the driver is responsible, even if it's a passenger opening the door, why do you think the blame passes to the other person if they happen to be in a car?

Using your logic if I'm approaching a T junction on the main road and I don't slow down to a crawl it's my fault if someone pulls out of the side road.

CramCycle

Del2005 wrote: »

If you open a door in front of a cyclist or pedestrian the driver is responsible, even if it's a passenger opening the door, why do you think the blame passes to the other person if they happen to be in a car?

Using your logic if I'm approaching a T junction on the main road and I don't slow down to a crawl it's my fault if someone pulls out of the side road.

I am still unclear in the OP thoug. Was the door open and a few seconds later the car drover into it even though he had reasonable time to see it and stop or did the passenger jam it out as the driver was nearly in the space and there was no time to see it i.e. she hadn't even finished opening it when the car hit.

Two very different situations, both of which assign blame to one party or the other.

In truth, I imagine it would either be 50:50 with one person lying or one person coughs up.