Seven Mysterious Facts About Fatima

alma73

http://reginamag.com/seven-mysterious-facts-fatima/

99 years after the apparitions its an interesting read.

hinault

alma73 wrote: »

http://reginamag.com/seven-mysterious-facts-fatima/

99 years after the apparitions its an interesting read.

Thanks for posting this.

2017 represents the centenary of the apparitions at Fatima.

2017 is said to be the 500th anniversary of martin luthers "reformation".

endacl

hinault wrote: »

Thanks for posting this.

2017 represents the centenary of the apparitions at Fatima.

2017 is said to be the 500th anniversary of martin luthers "reformation".

1517 is when the theses were nailed to the door. This act is widely accepted as the beginning of the reformation. Why 'said to be'?

solodeogloria

hinault wrote: »

Thanks for posting this.

2017 represents the centenary of the apparitions at Fatima.

2017 is said to be the 500th anniversary of martin luthers "reformation".

Good evening!

At the risk of being controversial, the Reformation has had a longer and more lasting legacy than Fatima.

I'm thankful for the work of the Reformers. I'm hoping to go to Germany and see some of the sites of the Reformation there. Not because I'm going to worship Martin Luther, but because I want to be aware of the history as it unfolded.

Martin Luther and others led a movement that brought the Bible into the hands of millions so that people could believe it for themselves. No doubt millions have become Christians through that work.

I don't think I can say the same for what happened at Fatima.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

hinault

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

At the risk of being controversial, the Reformation has had a longer and more lasting legacy than Fatima.

I'm thankful for the work of the Reformers. I'm hoping to go to Germany and see some of the sites of the Reformation there. Not because I'm going to worship Martin Luther, but because I want to be aware of the history as it unfolded.

Martin Luther and others led a movement that brought the Bible into the hands of millions so that people could believe it for themselves. No doubt millions have become Christians through that work.

I don't think I can say the same for what happened at Fatima.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

The "reformation" has had a 400 year lead on the events at Fatima.
Fatima and it's prophecy will be proven in time.

luther is a heretic.

solodeogloria

hinault wrote: »

luther is a heretic.

Good evening!

At the risk of getting this all moved to the megathread. How is he a heretic, and how am I in turn a heretic for not accepting Catholicism but believing in Jesus and in His Word?

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

endacl

hinault

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

At the risk of getting this all moved to the megathread. How is he a heretic, and how am I in turn a heretic for not accepting Catholicism but believing in Jesus and in His Word?

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Exsurge Domine issued by the Pope, condemned luther.

Moreover, because the preceding errors and many others are contained in the books or writings of Martin Luther, we likewise condemn, reprobate, and reject completely the books and all the writings and sermons of the said Martin, whether in Latin or any other language, containing the said errors or any one of them; and we wish them to be regarded as utterly condemned, reprobated, and rejected. We forbid each and every one of the faithful of either sex, in virtue of holy obedience and under the above penalties to be incurred automatically, to read, assert, preach, praise, print, publish, or defend them. They will incur these penalties if they presume to uphold them in any way, personally or through another or others, directly or indirectly, tacitly or explicitly, publicly or occultly, either in their own homes or in other public or private places.

Indeed immediately after the publication of this letter these works, wherever they may be, shall be sought out carefully by the ordinaries and others [ecclesiastics and regulars], and under each and every one of the above penalties shall be burned publicly and solemnly in the presence of the clerics and people.

As far as Martin himself is concerned, O good God, what have we overlooked or not done? What fatherly charity have we omitted that we might call him back from such errors? For after we had cited him, wishing to deal more kindly with him, we urged him through various conferences with our legate and through our personal letters to abandon these errors. We have even offered him safe conduct and the money necessary for the journey urging him to come without fear or any misgivings, which perfect charity should cast out, and to talk not secretly but openly and face to face after the example of our Savior and the Apostle Paul. If he had done this, we are certain he would have changed in heart, and he would have recognized his errors. He would not have found all these errors in the Roman Curia which he attacks so viciously, ascribing to it more than he should because of the empty rumors of wicked men. We would have shown him clearer than the light of day that the Roman pontiffs, our predecessors, whom he injuriously attacks beyond all decency, never erred in their canons or constitutions which he tries to assail. For, according to the prophet, neither is healing oil nor the doctor lacking in Galaad.

But he always refused to listen and, despising the previous citation and each and every one of the above overtures, disdained to come. To the present day he has been contumacious. With a hardened spirit he has continued under censure over a year.

What is worse, adding evil to evil, and on learning of the citation, he broke forth in a rash appeal to a future council. This to be sure was contrary to the constitution of Pius II and Julius II our predecessors that all appealing in this way are to be punished with the penalties of heretics. In vain does he implore the help of a council, since he openly admits that he does not believe in a council.

Therefore we can, without any further citation or delay, proceed against him to his condemnation and damnation as one whose faith is notoriously suspect and in fact a true heretic with the full severity of each and all of the above penalties and censures

You can read the full encyclical here
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo10/l10exdom.htm

uck51js9zml2yt

hinault wrote: »

The "reformation" has had a 400 year lead on the events at Fatima.
Fatima and it's prophecy will be proven in time.

luther is a heretic.

I would get involved in this only that hinault wont see my posts ( unless someone quotes me )
Interesting that he says the reformation has lasted 400 years and has hada proven effect on christendom.
Fatima hasnt even seen a century and as H admits, has yet to be proven.

As for Luther being a heretic. It was the council that resulted in him being kicked out of the RCC. Thankfully he had the sense not to accept his invitation. The result would probably have resulted in a BBQ

What H doesnt see is that there was always a Christian stream outside of the RCC over the proceeding 1500 years. Having never been a Protestant, I'm happy to associate with that stream:D
Has anyone got more popcorn:rolleyes:

mdebets

hinault wrote: »

Exsurge Domine issued by the Pope, condemned luther.

You can read the full encyclical here
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo10/l10exdom.htm

This was 500 years ago.

These days 'Pope Francis To Join Ecumenical Celebration of Protestant Reformation'.
And already under Pope John-Paul II, the Roman Catholic Church signed the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification with the Lutheran World Federation, saying that at least with this, Luther was right.

hinault

mdebets wrote: »

This was 500 years ago.

These days 'Pope Francis To Join Ecumenical Celebration of Protestant Reformation'.
And already under Pope John-Paul II, the Roman Catholic Church signed the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification with the Lutheran World Federation, saying that at least with this, Luther was right.

Exsurge Domine was issued 500 years ago, I agree.

What was held 500 years ago remains bound 500 years later and for the remainder of eternity.

Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification is an ecumenical document.

mdebets

hinault wrote: »

Exsurge Domine was issued 500 years ago, I agree.

What was held 500 years ago remains bound 500 years later and for the remainder of eternity.

If this were right, how could Pope Benedict then say:

Pope Benedict wrote:

Yet, it was indeed biblical to say, as did Luther, that it was the faith of a Christian, not his works that saved him.

see http://www1.cbn.com/ChurchWatch/archive/2009/02/06/pope-benedict-xvi-luther-was-right

hinault wrote: »

Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification is an ecumenical document.

Yes, written jointly by the Roman Catholic Church and the Lutheran World Federation.

Are you saying
[a] The Roman Catholic Church sometimes writes Declaration that they don't relay believe in (if this, please indicate how to determine which Deceleration to believe in and which to not believe in)
The Roman Catholic Church accepts today that some of Luther's writings are indeed not heretic.

hinault

mdebets wrote: »

If this were right, how could Pope Benedict then say:

The Catholic Church condemned luther as a heretic in the encyclical Exsurge Domine. This condemnation has never been retracted to this day.

Pope Benedict XVI did not issue an encyclical repudiating Exsurge Domine.

mdebets

hinault wrote: »

The Catholic Church condemned luther as a heretic in the encyclical Exsurge Domine. This condemnation has never been retracted to this day.

Pope Benedict XVI did not issue an encyclical repudiating Exsurge Domine.

How do you reconcile this with the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification and statements by Pope Benedict about Luther?
Wouldn't that make Pope John-Paul II and Pope Benedict heretics too?

hinault

mdebets wrote: »

How do you reconcile this with the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification and statements by Pope Benedict about Luther?
Wouldn't that make Pope John-Paul II and Pope Benedict heretics too?

I'd much prefer to discuss Fatima.

But let's deal with this Joint Declaration business.

I suggest that any reconciliation should be premised upon what weight does a declaration contain compared to other documents issued by the Vatican.

It's important to understand the hierarchy of documents issued by the Vatican, first and foremost.

A declaration is a document issued by a Pope with a non-Catholic religious leader and/or group.

In the hierarchy of Vatican documents where does a declaration sit compared to other Vatican documents? This is very important.

What we do know is that a declaration is not

(i) An Apostolic Exhortation category of document similar to an Apostolic Letter, which the Pope uses to communicate to the Church the conclusions he has reached after consideration of the recommendations of a Synod of Bishops.

(ii) An Apostolic Letter is of less solemn authority than an encyclical, they may be written on a doctrinal matter. They may also announce a papal act such as declaring a person Venerable (heroic virtue) or declaring a church a Basilica.

(iii) An encyclical is circular or general letter expressing the mind of the Pope, generally on matters of faith and morals. It may be a letter to the entire Church or an epistle to a particular Church or people

(iv) An Apostolic Constitution includes solemn Magisterial acts of the Pope; in governance, erecting dioceses, changing their status, rules for a papal election and the like.

(v) A Motu Proprio from the Pope on his own initiative, and not in response to a request or at the initiative of others. Its legal determinations carry the full force of papal authority, though it does not derogate from existing laws unless specifically stated.

It is clear to see from the hierarchy of documents where the status of a declaration rests. A declaration document does not carry the weight of an Exhortation, Encyclical, Constitution, Letter, Motu Proprio.

Given all of this, I'm rather more interested in discussing Fatima.

solodeogloria

Zayd Thankful Transmission wrote: »

I would get involved in this only that hinault wont see my posts ( unless someone quotes me )
Interesting that he says the reformation has lasted 400 years and has hada proven effect on christendom.
Fatima hasnt even seen a century and as H admits, has yet to be proven.

As for Luther being a heretic. It was the council that resulted in him being kicked out of the RCC. Thankfully he had the sense not to accept his invitation. The result would probably have resulted in a BBQ

What H doesnt see is that there was always a Christian stream outside of the RCC over the proceeding 1500 years. Having never been a Protestant, I'm happy to associate with that stream:D
Has anyone got more popcorn:rolleyes:

Good morning!

It was actually the Council of Trent that introduced the dubious theology of grace being received through the participation of the sacraments.

Prior to that point it seems many Catholics agreed with Luther. Including Gasparo Contarini who was a Papal advisor and only disagreed with him on Papal authority.

The basic point is if I'm a heretic for believing the Bible and for the Pope saying I should be judged for doing so, by all means call be a heretic. What matters is what Jesus makes of me.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

hinault

Attached is a link from the Vatican website.

The link describes the revelations said to be made at Fatima and how these revelations impact in our time.


http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

uck51js9zml2yt

Interesting link H.
So the apparition masquerading as Mary says pray to me so you can be saved from hell.

In total contradiction to the fact that Jesus died to save us, and there is no other Name in heaven or earth by which men must be saved.

God doesn't lie. He didn't give us Jesus and then say you have an alternative to be saved by.
This of course stems from the idea that Mary is co redemptrix as though Jesus'death wasn't sufficient and He needed a little help.

Safehands

alma73 wrote: »

http://reginamag.com/seven-mysterious-facts-fatima/
99 years after the apparitions its an interesting read.

It is a very interestng read. Obviously I don't know exactly what happened at Fatima. But the sun did not "dance" in the sky. However it happened, that was an optical illusion. That is not my opinion, that is a fact.
The article says; "that the Church is in a period of decline in the West –especially Europe — is patently obvious." Why did that happen? could it be largely due to the way the church and its clergy, have behaved. Is there anyone on the planet who could say that the clergy have behaved in a way which Christ would have approved of? Would he say they were representing him or would he say their behaviour was more representative of everything he despised? How would Jacinta, Francisco and Lucia have judged the behaviour of the Clergy in the Mid 20th century? Obviously these children were very pious believers. But to present an article which berates the people of Europe for turning their backs on a way of behaving, which was at best, extremely questionable, suggests that the credibility of the writer leaves a lot to be desired.

hinault

The apparitions at Fatima in 1917 prophesied the apostasy which was to take place in the Catholic Church.

Apostasy will be the catalyst to the loss of faith. Part of this apostasy will include a deception that will take place in the physical structures of the Temple of God (St.Peters Basilica?). In fact Fatima affirms what the NT says in Thessalonians Chapter 2.

Father Augustin Fuentes interviewing Sr.Lucia in 1957

Father, the Most Holy Virgin did not tell me that we are in the last times of the world but she made me understand this for three reasons.

The first reason is because she told me that the Devil is in the mood for engaging in a decisive battle against the Virgin. And a decisive battle is the final battle where one side will be victorious and the other side will suffer defeat. Hence from now on we must choose sides. Either we are for God or we are for the Devil. There is no other possibility.

“The second reason is because she said to my cousins as well as to myself that God is giving two last remedies to the world. These are the Holy Rosary and Devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. These are the last two remedies which signify that there will be no others.

“The third reason is because in the plans of Divine Providence, God always, before He is about to chastise the world, exhausts all other remedies. Now, when He sees that the world pays no attention whatsoever then, as we say in our imperfect manner of speaking, He offers us with a certain trepidation the last means of salvation, His Most Holy Mother. It is with a certain trepidation because if you despise and repulse this ultimate means we will not have any more forgiveness from Heaven because we will have committed a sin which the Gospel calls the sin against the Holy Spirit. This sin consists of openly rejecting with full knowledge and consent, the salvation which He offers. Let us remember that Jesus Christ is a very good Son and that He does not permit that we offend and despise His Most Holy Mother. We have recorded through many centuries of Church history the obvious testimony which demonstrates, by the terrible chastisements which have befallen those who have attacked the honor of His Most Holy Mother, how Our Lord Jesus Christ has always defended the honor of His Mother."[