Cycling in Bus Lane

demonreedler

Cycling downhill into town on the Finglas Road (past apartments on the old Premier Dairies site) I get pulled over by two Garda in a traffic corps car.

"Why are you in the bus lane? why can't you use the cycle lane? ".

Now this is the driver leaning across and shouting out of the passenger window, I'm sitting on my bike at the kerb, in traffic (obviously not leaning in his window) and I can hardly hear him - anyway I pointed out that the cycle-lane was in fact a shared footpath/ shared-carriageway and I was entitled to use the bus lane. I tried to point out that the footpath was too narrow, full of pedestrians, kids, prams etc... it was broken up and slippy and it keeps suddenly veering back onto the road in front of the traffic (anyone who cycles here knows what I mean) - however I was cut off before I finished with "there's no need for the attitude, have you a problem?" (note I checked my video of this, I was perfectly calm) - "why are you raising your voice? " the other one asks. I tell him 'cause it's noisy and also I can't hear your colleague from the far side of the car - I assume he can't hear me? "Why can't you hear him, have you earphones in?" (i didn't) - he's in the car and my hearings not the best, I just can't hear him properly etc...

I just stopped saying anything at this point and we all sat in silence until they glared at me some more and drove off ....

Garda's finest !!! Really, I know they have better things to do, but I used to have sympathy for the budget cuts and lack of recruitment, but they can forget that.

DirkVoodoo

Video or GTFO!

Seriously, you were completely entitled to ride where you were, unless you were riding without due care. This unfortunately sounds like a similar incident to last week on the quays and a case of Garda bullying.

It's nothing new really. While there are many upstanding Gardai (hey, one of my best friends is one...) there are, as in any profession, a couple who let a bit of power get to their heads.

If members of the public were more proactive in how they treat such incidents and reported these abuses, we'd see less of these bullies (and I'm sure they act the same to their colleagues so you will be helping them out too).

Not entirely unrelated, but a video from the US showed cops knocking a cyclist down, they then filed a false report to exonerate themselves from any wrongdoing.

Leroy42

I've come to the conclusion that a sizeable part of the garda force are ignorant of the very laws they are supposed to uphold, arrogant in their demeanor, have an us v's them attitude to most people they encounter and see themselves as victims.

Its not against you as a cyclist, though obviously so in this case, but more a case of abusing the huge power they wield over most people to intimidate and bully people. They see you as someone that is on their way, not someone that is either breaking or obeying the law.

IMO, this attitude is allowed to fester as the media line is that all garda are in imminent danger and are putting their lives at risk everyday to protect you, and we are all just ungrateful. This is of course true for some of them, but they also have the added benefit of being trained to deal with those situation, have the full backing of the law, have the equipment and backup at their disposal, to help them deal with some of the situations.

Forget about today, don't waste any time on it. Hopefully, if you ever do need a garda,you will be met by one of the many that are focused on their job and looking to serve to public.

jive

You should have said you did have a problem - they stopped you for using the bus lane which you're entitled to do. If they stop you again get their names / numbers and report it. If not, don't sweat it.

In their defence, they probably think you have to use the cycle lane if it's there. But as they have said to me many times over the years, ignorance is no excuse !!!

magicbastarder

might be worth sending an email to the garda press office about it, asking if this is policy.

i found them fairly receptive previously in relation to a non-cycling issue.

demonreedler

(GTFO??) - I do have video, but it's not pointing at the Garda car and you can only hear me !!!! But heah proof I wasn't shouting. I'd report it but where do I do that and call me paranoid but I do not want to attach my name and address to such a report. And like yourself DirkVoodoo I personally know several Garda and have had many a conversation with them about the few power-mad ars-h~@es who give the rest a bad name.

It's just so frustrating as I don't break lights, always cycle with care and truly believe I'm better off cycling with the Buses, where I'm more visible than popping in and out between the road and a half-assed shared footpath (Dublin Bus drivers in my opinion have improved hugely in the past few years in their tolerance and respect for cyclists - taxis not so much!!) -

Didn't hear about the quays incident, but worrying that these guys are assigned to traffic corp !!

demonreedler

I do have video, but it's not pointing at the Garda car and you can only hear me !!!! But heah proof I wasn't shouting. I'd report it but where do I do that and call me paranoid but I do not want to attach my name and address to such a report. And like yourself DirkVoodoo I personally know several Garda and have had many a conversation with them about the few power-mad ars-h~@es who give the rest a bad name.

It's just so frustrating as I don't break lights, always cycle with care and truly believe I'm better off cycling with the Buses, where I'm more visible than popping in and out between the road and a half-assed shared footpath (Dublin Bus drivers in my opinion have improved hugely in the past few years in their tolerance and respect for cyclists - taxis not so much!!) -

Didn't hear about the quays incident, but worrying that these guys are assigned to traffic corp !!

Leroy42

Don't bother reporting it, it's basically your word against two garda, and you can bet your bottom that they will back each other.

Forget about it, a mild inconvenience which you seemed to handle perfectly. There are w&nkers in all walks of life and unfortunately the garda have the powers to actually act out on it. No amount of you complaining is going to change their mindset. If they can close ranks on own of their own to protect themselves they aren't gong to care too much about Joe Public.

This line about the many good garda out there, yet very few of them actually ever stand up for the bullied. They seem to just accept it and the bad PR it gives the force. They has been so many instances of bad practice over the last few years that it is clearly a mindset within the force rather than a few rotten apples as we are supposed to believe

demonreedler

Leroy42 wrote: »

Don't bother reporting it, it's basically your word against two garda, and you can bet your bottom that they will back each other.

Forget about it, a mild inconvenience which you seemed to handle perfectly. There are w&nkers in all walks of life and unfortunately the garda have the powers to actually act out on it. No amount of you complaining is going to change their mindset. If they can close ranks on own of their own to protect themselves they aren't gong to care too much about Joe Public.

This line about the many good garda out there, yet very few of them actually ever stand up for the bullied. They seem to just accept it and the bad PR it gives the force. They has been so many instances of bad practice over the last few years that it is clearly a mindset within the force rather than a few rotten apples as we are supposed to believe

I think you're right Leroy - needed to vent a little here and make sure I wasn't imagining the grievance - but what's the point - more and more I think they revel in "being the victims" as another poster above mentioned - they'd actually hate it, if they were fully funded, equipped and resourced as they'd have to drop the "chippy" attitude and do some actual work.

ThisRegard

Leroy42 wrote: »

Don't bother reporting it, it's basically your word against two garda, and you can bet your bottom that they will back each other.

Well there's a video. And in fairness, even if they're not reported for disciplinary reasons, at least it might be educational. The guy driving could well have been ignorant as to how the rules and laws applied in this situation, its good for nobody, the public, his colleagues or himself to continue like that.

If there was someone in your own job doing something the wrong way you'd want them corrected.

Roland27

There was a picture on twitter recently near where (I think) you are referring to: https://twitter.com/CathalMacCoille/status/729630740929974272

Its a brutal cycle lane, in terrible condition and never cleaned, a perfect example of why cyclists don't use segregated cycle lanes like that.

Its ridiculous to think that some members of the Gardai don't know the rules of the road in relation to this. Its frustrating trying to explain to people why you don't always have to use cycle lanes, but what hope is there for people to understand if even the guards don't?

I would report this to the Garda press office. The issue needs to be highlighted. This is handy cover note link for reporting issues (its intended for close/dangerous calls while cycling but could still be some use) http://www.safecyclingireland.org/suggested-cover-note-to-gardai/

Del2005

I know that cyclists don't have to use the cycle lane. But if there's a cycle lane and separate bus lane should the cyclist not use the traffic lane if they aren't using the cycle lane?

ted1

Del2005 wrote: »

I know that cyclists don't have to use the cycle lane. But if there's a cycle lane and separate bus lane should the cyclist not use the traffic lane if they aren't using the cycle lane?

No, they should use the bus lane as allowed for by current legislation

galwaycyclist

Del2005 wrote: »

I know that cyclists don't have to use the cycle lane. But if there's a cycle lane and separate bus lane should the cyclist not use the traffic lane if they aren't using the cycle lane?

No all bus lanes are open to cyclists (apart from contraflow - but that was changed if I remember correctly).

Thats why the official sign for a bus lane includes a picture of a bicycle.

Carawaystick

Del2005 wrote: »

I know that cyclists don't have to use the cycle lane. But if there's a cycle lane and separate bus lane should the cyclist not use the traffic lane if they aren't using the cycle lane?

Only to overtake the busses...

demonreedler

Del2005 wrote: »

I know that cyclists don't have to use the cycle lane. But if there's a cycle lane and separate bus lane should the cyclist not use the traffic lane if they aren't using the cycle lane?

Again - there was no "cycle" lane there is a footpath with a whiteline indicating an area where a bicycle MAY use the footpath (this is more about allowing a bike on the footpath, which of course is normally illegal). Note it is not the direction in the post above but the other way, on which side the shared footpath is much narrower, very fragmented (if you use it, at one point, you suddenly appear back on the road in front of cars turning left - not fun for either party)

Del2005 - The bus lane sign if you look also has a bicycle symbol in it, you are entitled to cycle in it. This is where you should cycle, rather than the traffic lane, which legally you can also cycle in !!! but that would be to invite a whole world of pain and verbals !!!

Leroy42

ThisRegard wrote: »

Well there's a video. And in fairness, even if they're not reported for disciplinary reasons, at least it might be educational. The guy driving could well have been ignorant as to how the rules and laws applied in this situation, its good for nobody, the public, his colleagues or himself to continue like that.

If there was someone in your own job doing something the wrong way you'd want them corrected.

Thats very cute that you think any complaint will be treated as a learning experience. His colleague must also be ignorant of the law. One, could be an exception, two in the one car seems statistically remote if most of them are up to speed.

The fact that this particular garda is ignorant of his core job is the problem, and it falls on other garda, like the one sitting in the car with him, or his managers to root out the problem. How often are they updated on the rules, how often are they tested. Is there any on the job evaluation?

Tenzor07

I wouldn't use the "cycle lanes" along that road if you paid me!

demonreedler

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I wouldn't use the "cycle lanes" along that road if you paid me!

Ha - that's the one .. and that's not even the worst part !!!!!

ted1

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I wouldn't use the "cycle lanes" along that road if you paid me!

I would love to have a sit down with the engineer who designed and signed that off. I wonder can we get a FOI request to see all the correspondence relating to the cycle path. It might make for good reading

ThisRegard

Leroy42 wrote: »

Thats very cute that you think any complaint will be treated as a learning experience. His colleague must also be ignorant of the law. One, could be an exception, two in the one car seems statistically remote if most of them are up to speed.

The fact that this particular garda is ignorant of his core job is the problem, and it falls on other garda, like the one sitting in the car with him, or his managers to root out the problem. How often are they updated on the rules, how often are they tested. Is there any on the job evaluation?

It's been a while since someone told me I was cute, I'll accept all compliments going.

There's no harm in going to the press office, I'm sure there are notices, briefings and updates sent out regularly. Managers can't root out problems if they're unaware the problem actually exists.

cython

galwaycyclist wrote: »

No all bus lanes are open to cyclists (apart from contraflow - but that was changed if I remember correctly).

Thats why the official sign for a bus lane includes a picture of a bicycle.

FYP Though I think this may have been what you were saying anyway - All bus lanes, contra-flow or otherwise, are currently usable by cyclists (unless someone can enlighten me to the existence of a bus lane on a motorway, of course). Contra-flow bus lanes are not, however usable by taxis, which is their main distinction from with-flow lanes.

Tenzor07

Was a thread on this about 6 years ago, sadly not a single thing appears to have changed....

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055872833

demonreedler

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Was a thread on this about 6 years ago, sadly not a single thing appears to have changed....

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055872833

Nope it's worse than ever - and that last picture where the lane suddenly pops out in front of cars turning left is near where I was stopped. Up the hill just before this - the "cycle" lane veers behind a bus shelter and is basically one person wide, slippy with algae, and full of people waiting for the bus !!! - safer in the bus lane me thinks. Also, when I'm in the bus lane the cars can see me coming up to the left-turn junction and equally I can see they are turning left and nod at them to go on if appropriate. Otherwise bike just suddenly appear out, 2-3 metres before the turn - not safe.

josip

demonreedler wrote: »

... (this is more about allowing a bike on the footpath, which of course is normally illegal)...

I didn't think it was illegal to cycle on footpaths?
I thought cycling on footpaths without due care and attention was illegal?

http://irishcycle.com/2015/07/19/cycling-fines-what-you-need-to-know-from-august-1/

Roland27

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Was a thread on this about 6 years ago, sadly not a single thing appears to have changed....

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055872833

That is just nuts, still the same. Goes to show how much thought are put into these cycle lanes. And yet we still have the issue of Gardai/people asking why cyclists don't use them. What hope is there.

Please, report it. Most likely nothing will happen or come of it, but have to at least try.

demonreedler

josip wrote: »

I didn't think it was illegal to cycle on footpaths?
I thought cycling on footpaths without due care and attention was illegal?

http://irishcycle.com/2015/07/19/cycling-fines-what-you-need-to-know-from-august-1/

.. Oh, ok, I stand corrected, thanks for the link. However, I'm sure that'd be a whole other days lecture from my Starsky & Hutch genius pair

arybvtcw0eolkf

I knew there was a [sort of] cycle lane opposite but I genuinely didn't know there was one on the N2 heading into the city.

I do use the opposite one when I've to use the N2 but its a royal pain in the arse so I can imagine the opposite side not being any better.

I'd forget about it, sounds like you just met two ignorant fooks.

magicbastarder

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Was a thread on this about 6 years ago, sadly not a single thing appears to have changed....

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055872833

do i recall beasty mentioning he'd been stopped at least once on the airport road and berated by cops for not using the cycle lane?

also, i only noticed yesterday the rather amusing cycle lane between home farm road and griffith avenue - it jumps onto the footpath, but not along the edge of the kerb, it's in about six foot to allow people to park on the footpath, so the traffic is unable to see you...

ED E

ted1 wrote: »

I would love to have a sit down with the engineer who designed and signed that off. I wonder can we get a FOI request to see all the correspondence relating to the cycle path. It might make for good reading

That's a wonderful idea.

ThisRegard

magicbastarder wrote: »

do i recall beasty mentioning he'd been stopped at least once on the airport road and berated by cops for not using the cycle lane?

It also happened to someone around Lusk I think, there's been a few incidents of it.

Lumen

magicbastarder wrote: »

do i recall beasty mentioning he'd been stopped at least once on the airport road and berated by cops for not using the cycle lane?

I bet they won't be doing that again. Can you imagine?

cython

josip wrote: »

I didn't think it was illegal to cycle on footpaths?
I thought cycling on footpaths without due care and attention was illegal?

http://irishcycle.com/2015/07/19/cycling-fines-what-you-need-to-know-from-august-1/

demonreedler wrote: »

.. Oh, ok, I stand corrected, thanks for the link. However, I'm sure that'd be a whole other days lecture from my Starsky & Hutch genius pair

To be clear, cycling on a footpath is still illegal, and was for God knows how long prior to the FPN regime. It is just not an explicit FPN offence, and what has been referenced just suggested that the "without reasonable consideration" clause could be used to fine those cycling on footpaths in the absence of the explicit FPN offence. Never mind that arguably a footpath is also a "pedestrianised area", though I'm sure there's some subtle distinction differentiating them.

Catch a Garda on a bad day and he/she could still bring you to court for cycling on a footpath.

07Lapierre

Could cycling in a bus lane when there is a bike track available be considered "cycling without reasonable consideration"?
(Even if the bike lane is crap!)

magicbastarder

'i have given the matter reasonable consideration, guard, and concluded that the bus lane is safer'.

no court in the land would convict you.*

*i am not a legal professional.

Leroy42

07Lapierre wrote: »

Could cycling in a bus lane when there is a bike track available be considered "cycling without reasonable consideration"?
(Even if the bike lane is crap!)

Its such a catch all term that basically anything goes. Cycling two a breast would fall under this, cycling too far from the kerb, simply holding up traffic on a winding road could be.

Its a typical "if they give you any lip hit them with this" type charge as it really is totally down to the garda.

droidus

That stretch is a nightmare.

I cycled it everyday for a few years. Cycle on the 'cycle path' and you get thrown onto the road before junctions, left hooked by motorists turning into garages, hit tons of debris and dead leaves and have to slow right down on the downhill section.

Cycling on the road is generally safer but you get buzzed repeatedly by Dublin Bus drivers and occasionally abused by drivers.

I tended to stay on the cycle-lane/footpath past Glasnevin Cemetery, join the road at Claremount court for the downhill bit/garages then go off-road again at the Tolka.

I had three complaints upheld against Dublin Bus in less than three years. The Gardai were generally very sympathetic.

Now I just take a different route.

Seve OB

you should have followed them down to the criminal courts where they were proibably heading to park their car up along with the other 15 garda cars in the cycle lane at the bottom of the phoenix park.

unless of course they are one of the considerate ones who actually just leave their whole car up on the footpath or in the wheelchair or taxi space

Star hurl

The traffic corps is not amongst the most popular of units within the guards according to my Garda friends most regular beat gardai probably wouldn't give a ****e ha !

Tenzor07

Seve OB wrote: »

you should have followed them down to the criminal courts where they were proibably heading to park their car up along with the other 15 garda cars in the cycle lane at the bottom of the phoenix park.

True!

tomasrojo

Leroy42 wrote: »

They has been so many instances of bad practice over the last few years that it is clearly a mindset within the force rather than a few rotten apples as we are supposed to believe

I have become quite fascinated how people say not to worry about the system, that it's just a few bad apples. How does the rest of that adage go again, with regard to the barrel?

Wishbone Ash

ThisRegard wrote: »

It also happened to someone around Lusk I think, there's been a few incidents of it.

That was myself - Garda Sergeant pulled across my path with flashing lights and sirens Starsky and Hutch style. After a long winded debate (where he said several time that he would do the questioning, not me) he asked if I had a driving licence. When I responded that I did, but didn't require it for cycling, he advised me that I was fortunate, as otherwise he'd be putting points on it.

demonreedler

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

That was myself - Garda Sergeant pulled across my path with flashing lights and sirens Starsky and Hutch style. After a long winded debate (where he said several time that he would do the questioning, not me) he asked if I had a driving licence. When I responded that I did, but didn't require it for cycling, he advised me that I was fortunate, as otherwise he'd be putting points on it.

Do these clowns just make it up as they go along ? "I am an Garda - I am the Law" - too many US cop movies I think. I got the very same attitude i.e. keep it shut sonny - I do the talking, you do the listening etc.. etc.. as he proceeds to talk utter garbage about how I can't use the bus lane if there's a cycle lane present.

It just wears me out and is much more frustrating than idiots cutting me up, because theses fools are tasked with upholding laws they haven't even bothered to familiarise themselves with.

Seve OB

Tenzor07 wrote: »

True!

every bloody day. and that looks to me like it was a quiet day!!!

do these guys not realise their job is to uphold the law. it does not mean they are above the law.

magicbastarder

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

That was myself - Garda Sergeant pulled across my path with flashing lights and sirens Starsky and Hutch style. After a long winded debate (where he said several time that he would do the questioning, not me) he asked if I had a driving licence. When I responded that I did, but didn't require it for cycling, he advised me that I was fortunate, as otherwise he'd be putting points on it.

what powers would the garda be able to call on if you insisted on recording such an exchange on your phone?

NiallBoo

magicbastarder wrote: »

what powers would the garda be able to call on if you insisted on recording such an exchange on your phone?

"Filming without due care and attention"

liamog

Seve OB wrote: »

Tenzor07 wrote: »

True!

every bloody day. and that looks to me like it was a quiet day!!!

do these guys not realise their job is to uphold the law. it does not mean they are above the law.

At least it's some use of the lane, I cycle this way every morning, most people stay in the main lane as the surface is so bad here. Hopefully this will be resurfaced with some of the money being given to OPW for Bike Paths in the park.

Seve OB

liamog wrote: »

At least it's some use of the lane, I cycle this way every morning, most people stay in the main lane as the surface is so bad here. Hopefully this will be resurfaced with some of the money being given to OPW for Bike Paths in the park.

haha, to true

Carawaystick

I wouldn't hold my breath about the cycle lanes in the Park. A few weeks ago, the cycel lane on the old lamps road was closed to allow cars drive on it.... :rolleyes:

buffalo

Carawaystick wrote: »

I wouldn't hold my breath about the cycle lanes in the Park. A few weeks ago, the cycel lane on the old lamps road was closed to allow cars drive on it.... :rolleyes:

I had to look that one up - I'd never heard the name before, apparently it's "Odd Lamp Road".

The cycle lane on it was closed on Saturday as well, they use it as an alternate road when they close Chesterfield Avenue - http://www.phoenixpark.ie/newsevents/title,24084,en.html

For those who don't know it, during the week it's fenced off with bollards (at this point: https://goo.gl/maps/N1nqAnr65tT2), and so only open to cycle and foot traffic. A contra-flow bike lane exists, though I'm not sure it's needed?

arybvtcw0eolkf

demonreedler wrote: »

Cycling downhill into town on the Finglas Road (past apartments on the old Premier Dairies site) I get pulled over by two Garda in a traffic corps car.

"Why are you in the bus lane? why can't you use the cycle lane? ". .

I just remembered this thread this morning!.

I was riding my motobike down the N2 and immediately in front of me a cyclist was (unsuccesfully) trying to mount the cycle lane at the old Premier Dairies when his front wheel hit the higher edge of the pavement where there's a gap in the cycle lane at the apartments (old Premier Dairies).

The poor lad went straight over the bars and was left in a terrible state with head & facial injuries, a very broken left hand and other injuries.

Anyway, just watch dismounting and mounting those cycle paths!.