1000's of kids making their communion today

One eyed Jack

eviltwin wrote: »

One Eye out of interest why is your son making confirmation? I didn't think you were Catholic.

Yeah, I'm a practicing Catholic alright (not very good at it, why I'm still practicing ), but he's hoping to make his Confirmation next year. I say "he's hoping" because he actually does want to make his Confirmation, and not for the money or the fitting in or anything else, but genuinely for it's spiritual element.

The thing about it is though, and we had it yesterday when myself and himself would usually be going to mass, he wanted to go play with his friends. I basically told him that there's no point in him making his Confirmation if he doesn't even want to take half an hour out of the week to go to mass. His friends go to Mosque during the week and he goes with them as he's curious about the spiritual element of Islam too, and I don't mind that because he's learning through immersion rather than indoctrination.

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

No it doesn't have to be this way, and the sooner it is sorted out and religious rituals are removed from the primary school curriculum the better!

Kiwi it sounds like you have a good handle on it. I hate the idea of anyone feeling like they have to justify the decisions they make for their children to anyone else and that's why I rarely comment on other people's parenting, because you've raised your child for seven years and there are going to be occasions like this come up time and time again, and you'll know what works best for your child than I ever would. I hope that I didn't come across as interfering or finger wagging as there's nothing worse IMO, and FWIW I actually do agree that the current education system setup for children of parents who aren't Catholic is farcical, and is damaging to Irish society.

Unfortunately the way it is now too, there are so many stakeholders involved in the Irish education system, each with their own set of priorities that they put before the welfare of the children.

Mark Hamill

Hannah Tart Flutist wrote: »

Based on the ops argument we shouldn't let our kids get involved in politics or law enforcement as the politicians and guards covered up the child abuse and therefore allowed it happen.

Yes, because the systematic abuse, rape, selling and murder of children would only be wrong if the church had done it entirely by themselves. They had friends in the garda and the government help them, so it's not really their fault at all. :rolleyes:

Bristolscale7

Speaking of first communions, here's an interesting work of art

recedite

Here's some sort of explanation for the mad picture.
Abe Lincoln and Barbie seem to be included as part of the modern pantheon of small gods.
That baby is gonna hit somebody if he doesn't get his slice of meat soon!

iguana

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Feck communion and "poor child is left out". We will beat it!

Good for you. I was talking about this with a family member recently who's preschool aged children will probably be in a Catholic school and she's already thinking they will go to Disneyland for communion week. My son won't be in a Catholic school but if he was, I've always felt we'd be going to either Disney or Legoland at communion week. It's not about competing but there is no way on earth I'd let my child sit through months of spending five days a week in a room with 30+ kids all getting increasingly excited about their big party and what they'll be spending their loot on while he has no special once/twice in a lifetime event of his own to look forward to.

Kiwi in IE

I won't have the slightest problem with Little Kiwi not wanting to do the religious stuff anyway. This evening we stopped at a shop which was near a grotto. For some reason, there were several older women sitting in front of the statue of Mary. I'm not precisely sure what they were doing, but they appeared to be staring at it. Little Kiwi said "Mummy, what are they doing? Are they praying to the statue of Mary?" I replied impartially that yes, I think that must be what they are doing. Little Kiwi said "I don't mean to be mean, but that's the exact same as praying to the wall."

meeeeh

I must say I find all this ostentatious competition between parents of the kids revolting. Be it Catholic girls and boys getting dolled up up to the nines, the greed and the money or nonreligious parents competing to make sure their kids have some mad party to compensate for not being dressed as mirangue. It's pretty sad really.

Our kids will get communion if their father wants to take them to mass (and won't if it depends on me) but if there is one thing I am certain about is that I'm not letting it get out of hand. I don't want to go all 'starving kids in Africa' but I certainly hope I am not introducing them to the vulgar one upmanship at the age of seven or eight.

As for opening post, making a stand all the time is terribly dull thing. Especially because societies have to look at themselves too and ask why so many vulnerable people and especially vulnerable kids were put in position to be abused.

One eyed Jack

meeeeh wrote: »

I must say I find all this ostentatious competition between parents of the kids revolting. Be it Catholic girls and boys getting dolled up up to the nines, the greed and the money or nonreligious parents competing to make sure their kids have some mad party to compensate for not being dressed as mirangue. It's pretty sad really.

Our kids will get communion if their father wants to take them to mass (and won't if it depends on me) but if there is one thing I am certain about is that I'm not letting it get out of hand. I don't want to go all 'starving kids in Africa' but I certainly hope I am not introducing them to the vulgar one upmanship at the age of seven or eight.

As for opening post, making a stand all the time is terribly dull thing. Especially because societies have to look at themselves too and ask why so many vulnerable people and especially vulnerable kids were put in position to be abused.

I used to wonder actually when I was younger, was my generations vulgar obsession with materialism a symptom of Irish culture being influenced by a steady diet of American MTV shows, and then I realised as I got older that no, Irish culture was always like this, having to outdo their neighbours even if it meant they couldn't put a meal on the table for the next year because they were after getting themselves into crippling debt just to show off to the neighbours. The Celtic Tiger years were some of the worst excesses I've ever witnessed - pink hummer stretch limos and horse drawn pink pumpkin carriages pulling up to the Church and squeezing in among the 4x4 city slicker SUVs!! Honest to... well, you get the idea :pac:

Even reading through Irish history, there was always this thing of having to show you were better than your neighbours, and the RCC milked our sense of haughy indignation, self-righteousness, ego and narcissism for all it was worth by having people who had fcukall after a shìtty crop failure STILL competing with each other to give the last of what was left of their crops to the Church! :rolleyes:

The OP has a point, but honestly it was made so badly I couldn't even be arsed. I sat in mass there yesterday and not once, not twice, but THREE fcuking times the money baskets were passed around, and the Church was packed, packed, and there were €10s and €20s in the baskets EACH time!! This is EVERY Sunday, and I'm just thinking to myself as the guy is reaching to pass me the basket for another round - "Will you fcuk off mate, I come here to pray, not to pay!!" I don't even need to say it to him as we both look each other in the eye and he knows he's taking the piss, and he knows I'm absolutely infuriated that he appears to have no shame whatsoever about his behaviour. There's no humility, there's no graciousness, there's nothing! Just a gormless old fart with his grubby shovel hands out again for more money. The same chap probably still has his own Communion money ffs! He's moved on to the next pew before I lose my shìt and fcuk the baskets out of his hands... It absolutely enrages me the sort of self-centred greed and one-upmanship I see in ALL sectors of Irish society, the expectation and the entitlement.

I've had to stop working with some "charity" organisations because I literally could not stomach the utter corruption and greed and vulture culture I witnessed - one particular charity which shall remain unidentified which had €7m (that's seven MILLION btw) in assets on it's balance sheet, donations of €75k and upwards on a regular basis left to them in wills, funding from the HSE and private donors that had my work colleagues tell me I "worked the room like a two-bit whore" to squeeze cheques with three figure sums from their fat fingers. Even thinking about it now I'm actually ashamed I had to do that, but I believed that the money was going to fund resources for the people who needed them the most. It was in it's bollocks. I'd say if there was even two cents in every euro going to fund resources I'm being generous. Most of it was going on funding the lifestyles of the people who actually managed the money, with everyone taking their cut, while I was breaking my balls for nothing, because I believed that eventually the money would trickle into funding resources while I was providing what resources I had for free to them because it was a good cause.

When I got talking with the MD about the running of the organisation and the way it was being so inefficiently run because the people weren't getting the resources they needed, he seemed more interested in my background than actually talking about how funds were being siphoned and the thought occurred to me that this a-hole was lining me up to be the face of their next campaign. That's when I figured they could find themselves another poster boy, I'm out.

That was just one organisation btw, of many, many "charities" I've worked with over the last 20 years, and if anyone thinks the RCC are good at exploitation and sucking the very life and soul out of people, the RCC are positively amateurs in comparison to some of the organisations I've experienced.

The problem OP isn't with any particular organisation or club, or religion or anything else, the problem is human nature, in all of us. Don't get me wrong though, the vast, vast majority of people I've worked with and met in the course of my work and in any of the organisations I've worked in have been truly hard working, incredible, amazing people, and that's why I count someone like Michael Nugent as someone I very much admire, because the man is a tireless and dedicated worker, truly dedicated to what he believes in, and it's a shame I feel anyway that he and his organisation don't get the national recognition I feel anyway that they deserve. I may not entirely agree with the policies and aims of Atheist Ireland, but fcuk me I have to admire their dedication all the same, all the more admirable when I see the humility and lack of egotism every time I've ever watched Michael in action and read his contributions to this forum (I've always wanted to ask him is that the same red tee shirt he wears all the time, and if so, what brand of washing powder is he using that he manages to keep it's colour so vibrant!! ).




Christ I held that one in a while! :pac:

TL:DR; In short OP, that's people for you, and you could spend your whole life trying to figure them out, or just get on with your own life and where you see people in need, help them out without being a cnut about it, and without expecting anything in return. It pays better.

NIMAN

Would it be wrong to name the organisation with 7mill on its balance sheet?
I'm curoius.

Kiwi in IE

Kiwi in IE wrote:

They won't be in competition with each other, but when Johnny tells him on the Monday after communion that he had a party and got paid €1000 for being Catholic, Little Kiwi can say "cool, what are you going to buy? I had a great weekend too, I went to Old Trafford", rather than "You're really lucky, I wish I was Catholic so I got €1000 too".

It's funny, because I was fully behind this plan until this hypocrisy struck me; so you reject the mass adoption of Catholicism but you buy into football. Just replace one form of meaningless nonsense with another, I suppose.

iguana

meeeeh wrote: »

I must say I find all this ostentatious competition between parents of the kids revolting. Be it Catholic girls and boys getting dolled up up to the nines, the greed and the money or nonreligious parents competing to make sure their kids have some mad party to compensate for not being dressed as mirangue. It's pretty sad really.

Our kids will get communion if their father wants to take them to mass (and won't if it depends on me) but if there is one thing I am certain about is that I'm not letting it get out of hand. I don't want to go all 'starving kids in Africa' but I certainly hope I am not introducing them to the vulgar one upmanship at the age of seven or eight.

Wow way to be super condescending and totally miss the point. You don't put a small child in the position of watching everyone around them get an amazing present and have them be one of the very few, or maybe the only one, left out. If this was done for any other reason people would be up in arms. A lot of schools ban kids handing out birthday party invites on school grounds for the express reason that they want to minimise the feelings of being left out for the children not invited. Most parents know that you either invite a small number of your child's friends to a party or all the class but never 32 out of 34 kids. Exclusion is a form of bullying and can do serious damage to a child. And this is a case of deliberate exclusion from a great day out as the church knows that many parents go through with something they consider a farce just so their child won't be left out. It's a real case of "You could save a lot more souls with roller-skates and Easy-Bake ovens, than with this 2000-page sleeping pill."

So while my child is unlikely to ever be in a position where he is one of the only kids being excluded from this lifetime event and chance to accumulate a four figure sum for himself. If he was, I'd be making sure he had his own lifetime event to look forward to at the same time.

Shrap

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Christ I held that one in a while! :pac:

TL:DR; In short OP, that's people for you, and you could spend your whole life trying to figure them out, or just get on with your own life and where you see people in need, help them out without being a cnut about it, and without expecting anything in return. It pays better.

Bloody good post OEJ. I don't always (or even often) agree with you, but I'm with you 100% on this one!

meeeeh

There us a difference between making sure child is not left out to planning a trip to Disneyland because neighbors hired a bouncy castle.

How can those kids whose parents can't afford bouncy castles, big parties and trips away ever manage to grow up in well rounded individuals? I'm not against treating your child but all the talk here was about making it bigger and better. Good for you that you can afford it but I don't think my kids are bulied because they won't get a trip to Disneyland.

Optimalprimerib

Parents are teaching their kids how to cherish and adore their one true god. I don't see what's wrong with that. At the end of the day we all worship the same thing , that's why we devote our lives to this worship. Some say they don't but they really do. Without our one true god we would be in suffering as we can witness all around us.

What is our one true god? Money.

iguana

meeeeh wrote: »

There us a difference between making sure child is not left out to planning a trip to Disneyland because neighbors hired a bouncy castle.

How can those kids whose parents can't afford bouncy castles, big parties and trips away ever manage to grow up in well rounded individuals? I'm not against treating your child but all the talk here was about making it bigger and better. Good for you that you can afford it but I don't think my kids are bulied because they won't get a trip to Disneyland.

It's not about the bouncing castle, that's barely the cherry on the enormous sundae. It's having a day on a bouncy castle while all day long adult friends and relatives show up and hand you a card with €50-200 inside. Children who come from large extended families, which is still pretty much the norm in this country, can end the day with close to or over €1000. The talk among communion kids tends to be 5% bouncy castle and princess dress, 95% great swag they'll buy with their takings. (And 0% love for their one true god.)

stoplooklisten

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

....I don't mean to be mean, but that's the exact same as praying to the wall."

He's right, god can hear your prayers anywhere. It was Pentecostal. I know that because the secular state that I am currently on holiday in has it as a national holiday.

[Deleted User]

Maybe if people stopped giving kids money for communion & confirmation it wouldn't be about the money anymore.
Maybe there wouldn't be so many holy children anymore...........

markc2951

Kenny Bania wrote:

Are people just not aware that the Catholic Church molested 10's of 1000's of kids around the world and covered it up, or do they just not care?

Kenny Bania wrote:

Why are people cool with kids being molested, especially being parents themselves? And I believe they must be "cool" with it, otherwise why would they voluntarily choose to associate with this very same organisation.

Kenny Bania wrote:

And not only that, a few weeks before their communion, they send their kid into a box with a dirty old man who asks them about all the naught things they've been getting up to lately!! aka 'first confession'. They're 8 - they have nothing to confess to you, ya big weirdo FFS!

Kenny Bania wrote:

Am I the one that's crazy here? Is it okay to molest thousands of kids? People seem cool with it.

Wow were you ever at mass in your life?
First confessions in my area was done on the alter in front of everyone although you couldn't hear anything but could see it all..I think your a disgrace posting such a comment and tarring all priests with the one brush,and that's coming from someone who goes to mass once or twice a year.shame on you

cowboyBuilder

Vast majority of people do it just to keep up appearances and "its what you do" mentality... unfortunately it gives the RCC stats to call these people believers when most don't give a ****e about the religion.

Kiwi in IE

Caleb Important Colt wrote: »

It's funny, because I was fully behind this plan until this hypocrisy struck me; so you reject the mass adoption of Catholicism but you buy into football. Just replace one form of meaningless nonsense with another, I suppose.

Yeah, unfortunately though you can't insist that your 7 year old boy has interests that are exactly the same as your own. I'm not a fan of Star Wars or Avengers either really (although I'd be happy enough to have his poster of Thor (Chris Hemsworth) in my bedroom.

BrianBoru00

Are all of these threads like for like. Anytime I've clicked to a link in Atheism & Agnosticism bar once I think, it was a Catholic bashing thread.
I click again and the same thing - the OP with a ridiculous statement with no aim for balance whatsoever and supported by a number on that side.

Then we have the "defenders of the faith" coming out with the consistent "God is good, we must all bow before God" attitude without any consideration for any flaws (which is the head in the sand attitude that allowed all the abuse to continue).

There are of course some reasoned debaters on both sides but JHC, this really stifles constructive debate

robindch

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

Anytime I've clicked to a link in Atheism & Agnosticism bar once I think, it was a Catholic bashing thread.

You should distinguish between criticizing an idea (which is fine), criticizing the actions of a person (which is generally fine) and criticizing the person (which is not fine).

Phrases like "catholic-bashing" are intended not to illuminate a debate, but - like the unhelpful word "islamophobia" - intended instead to shut down debate by making it appear that criticism of an idea amounts to criticism of the person holding the idea.

The distinction might seem jesuitical, but it's important to understand how language is used and abused for political ends.

Absolam

robindch wrote: »

The distinction might seem jesuitical, but it's important to understand how language is used and abused for political ends.

Verily, like unto choirs of angels

Kenny Bania

markc2951 wrote: »

Wow were you ever at mass in your life?
First confessions in my area was done on the alter in front of everyone although you couldn't hear anything but could see it all..I think your a disgrace posting such a comment and tarring all priests with the one brush,and that's coming from someone who goes to mass once or twice a year.shame on you

Well my first confession, and every other one I know of, was done in a confession box - you know that dark wooden box that every church has at the side of the pews? My description was accurate.

And don't try the "few bad apples" argument - it's never held water. Any priests that didn't partake were well aware - and that, by definition, makes them complicit. They all knew what was going on.

BrianBoru00

robindch wrote: »

You should distinguish between criticizing an idea (which is fine), criticizing the actions of a person (which is generally fine) and criticizing the person (which is not fine).

Phrases like "catholic-bashing" are intended not to illuminate a debate, but - like the unhelpful word "islamophobia" - intended instead to shut down debate by making it appear that criticism of an idea amounts to criticism of the person holding the idea.

The distinction might seem jesuitical, but it's important to understand how language is used and abused for political ends.

The phrase "Catholic bashing" was not intended to shut down debate but intended to describe the post.

The OP criticised The Catholic Church in its entirety, then the general public implying "people" were cool with the idea of kids being molested and follows this with claiming people send their kids "into a box with a dirty old man".

Kenny Bania wrote: »

Are people just not aware that the Catholic Church molested 10's of 1000's of kids around the world and covered it up, or do they just not care?

Why are people cool with kids being molested, especially being parents themselves? And I believe they must be "cool" with it, otherwise why would they voluntarily choose to associate with this very same organisation.

And not only that, a few weeks before their communion, they send their kid into a box with a dirty old man who asks them about all the naught things they've been getting up to lately!! aka 'first confession'. They're 8 - they have nothing to confess to you, ya big weirdo FFS!

Am I the one that's crazy here? Is it okay to molest thousands of kids? People seem cool with it.

The OP doesn't appear to have any motive except to criticise the people who send their kids "into a box" . Its a rant over first holy communion and the gist of it is quite clearly criticising "the person" or more precisely "people".

Absolam

Kenny Bania wrote: »

And don't try the "few bad apples" argument - it's never held water. Any priests that didn't partake were well aware - and that, by definition, makes them complicit. They all knew what was going on.

I have to say, I don't think that argument ever held water. I've known plenty of priests (from more than one Christian denomination) who would never have been complicit at all; all of them would and do find such abuses abhorrent. What was done was bad enough without engaging full conspiracy mode.

flutered

a kid on our road got the first communion last sunday, people arrived from various parts of the globe, all attended the church, all were asked not to give money gifts, all bar three or four attended the cermony, afterwards there was tea and cake etc in the community hall, then back to the house where the bouncy castle was the star attraction for the kids, the adults had food and drink, a tent had been erected for the purpose, the food was prepared by friends of the family, drink was provided by both the family and friends, i was not in attendence but it was supposed to have been a fantastic day for all, people who had not met in years spent the day reviving old memorys etc, it ended up around five, with everyone helping to clean and tidy, when i think of how this day went, against how others are trying to degrade such days, i have to wonder at the reasoning behind attacking such events, every one knows about the pedo sch1t, but it was not confined to the c.c. look at kincora up north, look at the bbc in the uk, the thread started went on about how his kid would go to see a game across chanell, that they would remember for the rest of their lives, i am wondering if it is the adult which will enjoy it the most, i assume that there will be 70-90k at the game, big crowd, big q's, big waiting, big travel, all so as a seven year old could enjoy a day out, to me this has to be more overwheleming and frightning than enjoyment for the kid, then the journey home, the tieredness, the overtierdness, me i dunno

[Deleted User]

Could they not have had the exact same day without the communion though?

I didn't see anything there about the child receiving communion & whatever that means religiously.

meeeeh

I would think it doesn't matter if it's religious occasion or not but it has a lot more to do with what is important to parents. I have distaste for big events so there probably wouldn't be a big party and since we are small family and half of relatives outside Ireland even if gifts were given our kids wouldn't come out with huge amounts. I don't feel sorry for my kids in fact I think they are damn lucky, they live in comfortable house in nice neighborhood, they get everything they need and while we don't consider ourselves parents of the month, they are happy and loved kids. And that is why I find the idea kids would be bullied without big expensive day out insulting and out frankly out of touch with reality.

As a society we do like a bit of ritual though. Be it the wedding (a signature in registry office would be enough), christening or naming ceremonies, even funerals have a degree of ritual to it. So I can appreciate why kids go through different sacraments without big soul searching about depth of their or their parent's religion.

Qs

All of those things have separate meanings though. A wedding is a declaration of love and an official joining of a family with or without religious elements. And a funeral is a celebration/mourning of a person who has died. These are human rituals that make sense in their own right. A communion or confirmation has no meaning outside of its religious significance. Therefore it should be a time when those involved seriously think about their faith.