Western Rail Corridor Phase II: Athenry to Claremorris

marno21

Connacht Tribune wrote:

Economic review of rail line from Athenry to Claremorris

An independent economic study is to be carried out on the Western Rail Corridor between Athenry and Claremorris.
The commitment was made as part of the negotiations to form a new government.
Independent TD Seán Canney says it’s vital that investment is made in the rail network for the west.
The Western Rail Trail Campaign is welcoming the news of a review of the costings.
The group has long campaigned for a greenway to be established alongside the route of the disused rail track.
Greenway campaigners feel that an independent review of the cost, which is expected to take six months, will confirm that the rail corridor is not viable as a train route.
Spokesperson for the Western Rail Trail Campaign, Brendan Quinn says a clause trying to block plans for a greenway won’t work either.
However, Deputy Seán Canney says the programme for government, which he partly negotiated, will give a definitive cost for Phase 2 of the Western Rail Corridor.

http://connachttribune.ie/economic-review-of-rail-line-from-athenry-to-claremorris-022/

LeinsterDub

marno21 wrote: »

http://connachttribune.ie/economic-review-of-rail-line-from-athenry-to-claremorris-022/

I wonder if they can see the same lads who said phase 1 was viable . Sure don't even bother doing a review just update the old document .



I honestly can't think of a more apporate term than Jesus wept

D.L.R.

What a complete piss take. There's already a barely justified motorway under construction on this route and now they want a railway too!

A serious rail investment for the west would be rebuilding the Limerick-Charleville line and have a fast Cork-Limerick intercity service. This is just moronic.

cgcsb

Double tracking the existing railway between Portarlington and Athlone would deliver far reaching benefits for the west, slashing journey times to Dublin and increasing the frequency of service. A slow windy rail route between athenry and claremorris wont be of any use when there is an empty parallel motorway, after all folks in the west love their cars.

brandodub

It's a pity we didn't have Pascal fighting for Dart Underground
#parishpumppolitics

JupiterKid

Totally nonsensical proposal that will never happen. The population in the West is just far tool low and thinly spread to justify this. As it is, the Limerick - Galway rail line is very quiet.

The urgent priority is to build the M20 from Cork to Limerick.

Paramite Pie

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I wonder if they can see the same lads who said phase 1 was viable . Sure don't even bother doing a review just update the old document .

The problem with phase I is that there's already a great bus service from Galway to Limerick and it's probably cheaper too. Trains in Ireland are far too slow, faster trains are the only solution.

A rail going towards Sligo would only be viable if it connects to the North. A Galway - Derry (via Enniskillen/Strabane) connection would allow rail travel all the way from Malin to Mizen - well Derry to Cork anyways. It's not easy to get to Derry from anywhere except Belfast.

brandodub wrote: »

It's a pity we didn't have Pascal fighting for Dart Underground
#parishpumppolitics

We'll loan you one of our priests instead -- they got us an airport out in some field so I'm sure they'll manage to get ye the Underground. Just claim some apparitions along the proposed route.;)

lostboy75

Not sure there would be the use in this either.
however two poster complain about the motorway.
'There's already a barely justified motorway'
'there is an empty parallel motorway'
Do either if you use this road? It's along way from an empty route currently. This will greatly help those that commute in this area. It is a long way from Dublin though, so hardly a surprise people don't think there is a use for it.

marno21

lostboy75 wrote: »

Not sure there would be the use in this either.
however two poster complain about the motorway.
'There's already a barely justified motorway'
'there is an empty parallel motorway'
Do either if you use this road? It's along way from an empty route currently. This will greatly help those that commute in this area. It is a long way from Dublin though, so hardly a surprise people don't think there is a use for it.

They're on about the under construction M17 motorway, not the M6.

Jayop

marno21 wrote: »

They're on about the under construction M17 motorway, not the M6.

I think that's what they're talking about. That road will see plenty of traffic.

As for the railway line, anyone I know in Sligo thinks it should be a green way and there's never going to be the demand for a North South service all alone the West coast.

Carawaystick

Paramite Pie wrote: »

The problem with phase I is that there's already a great bus service from Galway to Limerick and it's probably cheaper too. Trains in Ireland are far too slow, faster trains are the only solution.

There are more bus services, they cost less than the regular train fare, they take less time, you can have a bus travelling in both directions at the same time, unlike the train; and the bus service is not stopped from operating by a bit of rain

lostboy75

marno21 wrote: »

They're on about the under construction M17 motorway, not the M6.

I am on about the m17 as well, I commute from up near Claremorris

KlausFlouride

C'mon now, it's important we give a ball of tax payer money to McKinsey or KPMG to generate an "independent report" that will say "Eh, I wouldn't, but whatever ya think yourselves lads". How would TD's justify their existence otherwise?

Paramite Pie

Jayop wrote: »

As for the railway line, anyone I know in Sligo thinks it should be a green way and there's never going to be the demand for a North South service all alone the West coast.

The West is too rural -- but how do we go about urbanising it? Ending one-off housing would be a start. There's half a million in Connacht, and you can easily draw a line down the middle of Mayo/Galway when you look at population density maps.

Mayo has 130,000 people, of which 100,000 live in 3 of the 4 county councils (Castlebar, Ballina, Claremorris) and West Mayo (the largest constituency) is sparsely populated.

The population has already moved toward the East of the County so population density stats are misleading. A greenway could help attract suburbs/Apartments along the route (like all the towns along the DART line), maybe in the future a train could be viable?

There's another 110,000 in East Galway, scattered among the country side between Tuam, Athenry, Ballinasloe, Loughrea, Gort ect.. so a long term urbanization plan is needed.

Jayop

Paramite Pie wrote: »

The West is too rural -- but how do we go about urbanising it? Ending one-off housing would be a start. There's half a million in Connacht, and you can easily draw a line down the middle of Mayo/Galway when you look at population density maps.

Mayo has 130,000 people, of which 100,000 live in 3 of the 4 county councils (Castlebar, Ballina, Claremorris) and West Mayo (the largest constituency) is sparsely populated.

The population has already moved toward the East of the County so population density stats are misleading. A greenway could help attract suburbs/Apartments along the route (like all the towns along the DART line), maybe in the future a train could be viable?

There's another 110,000 in East Galway, scattered among the country side between Tuam, Athenry, Ballinasloe, Loughrea, Gort ect.. so a long term urbanization plan is needed.

I'm not arguing that new one off housing shouldn't be kept to a minimum. I live in a smallish town in sligo that this would directly effect and I'd much rather the short and long term benefit from a Greenway at very low cost to the taxpayer rather than some potential future rail service that will in all likelihood never be needed. For transportation of people there's plenty of roads and busses. There's trains to Dublin already there. For goods the roads are being upgraded so road haulage is fine.

D.L.R.

Urbanisation is the key. Whether you're talking about Dublin or the West. Ireland still doesn't get it. Its still stuck in 1950s horse trading boggernomics.

Dublin should have a metro, but its "too expensive". Cork has the potential for light rail but that's pretty much science fiction. Yet a railway from Athenry to Claremorris is actually a live political option. Whether it happens or not is beside the point, its actually on the table and tax dollars are being spent on it. Says it all really.

Jayop

D.L.R. wrote: »

Urbanisation is the key. Whether you're talking about Dublin or the West. Ireland still doesn't get it. Its still stuck in 1950s horse trading boggernomics.

Dublin should have a metro, but its "too expensive". Cork has the potential for light rail but that's pretty much science fiction. Yet a railway from Athenry to Claremorris is actually a live political option. Whether it happens or not is beside the point, its actually on the table and tax dollars are being spent on it. Says it all really.

Who wants it?

Consonata

Paramite Pie wrote: »

The West is too rural -- but how do we go about urbanising it? Ending one-off housing would be a start. There's half a million in Connacht, and you can easily draw a line down the middle of Mayo/Galway when you look at population density maps.

Mayo has 130,000 people, of which 100,000 live in 3 of the 4 county councils (Castlebar, Ballina, Claremorris) and West Mayo (the largest constituency) is sparsely populated.

The population has already moved toward the East of the County so population density stats are misleading. A greenway could help attract suburbs/Apartments along the route (like all the towns along the DART line), maybe in the future a train could be viable?

Wouldn't a train attract more people than a greenway? I'm not against the reason, it is just I see no reason why there shouldn't be both? A Sligo-Galway-Limerick would be well used, especially by students who go up and down to college every weekend.

Carawaystick

Consonata wrote: »

Wouldn't a train attract more people than a greenway? I'm not against the reason, it is just I see no reason why there shouldn't be both? A Sligo-Galway-Limerick would be well used, especially by students who go up and down to college every weekend.

Except the train line form Limerick was closed for half the year due to some rain. So the students would get the cheaper faster, mores services per day coaches that run all year round.

Consonata

Carawaystick wrote: »

Consonata wrote: »

Wouldn't a train attract more people than a greenway? I'm not against the reason, it is just I see no reason why there shouldn't be both? A Sligo-Galway-Limerick would be well used, especially by students who go up and down to college every weekend.

Except the train line form Limerick was closed for half the year due to some rain. So the students would get the cheaper faster, mores services per day coaches that run all year round.

That speaks more to the rubbish quality of the line though , more than the quality of the service

KlausFlouride

Consonata wrote: »

That speaks more to the rubbish quality of the line though , more than the quality of the service

Problem is when the usage is so low, and the need for a subvention each year (was estimated @ €2.5 million p.a. on much higher passenger numbers) it becomes a catch 22. There's no money to invest, so the service will decline further. The population density isn't there.

Muckyboots

There have been two substantial reports on the WRC completed in the last three years. One was for possible Ten-T European funding and that was crystal clear that the potential passenger numbers just aren't sufficient north of Tuam. The other report commissioned by Western Development Commission, which is openly pro-rail, on potential freight-hardly mentioned the WRC, other than to say the alignment should be protected ( a Greenway will do that perfectly). Now another report ? At what cost? It's sad to see taxpayers money wasted on a sickly mix of nostalgia and begrudgery when there are far more important issues to be addressed.

Jayop

Honestly, I don't know anyone personally who wants to see this train run up to Sligo. Everyone (that I know) in my area wants the greenway developed.

It's simple. Area that doesn't need a train service but does need tourism and recreation facilities.

Just fecking sort out the really crappy dangerous parts of the N17 and there's no need for trains.

Carawaystick

Consonata wrote: »

That speaks more to the rubbish quality of the line though , more than the quality of the service

You're the person proposing building a new line to connect to the existing unfit for purpose line with some vague notion of getting traffic in trains 2 days a week...
Tuam had <9k last census
Sligo had 20k

How many of those are students? How many are travelling to Limerick?

cgcsb

Jayop wrote: »

I think that's what they're talking about. That road will see plenty of traffic.

There won't ever be sufficient traffic to justify the motorway spec.

Consonata

Jayop wrote: »

Just fecking sort out the really crappy dangerous parts of the N17 and there's no need for trains.

Which by last current projections, looks like it will cost in the region of 400 million, twice as much as a train line with no tolling so no hope of getting any of that cash back.

http://www.tuamherald.ie/news/roundup/articles/2014/03/28/4024584-m17-will-cost-as-much-to-drop-as-to-finish

cgcsb

The existing WRC between Ennis and Athenry is a real shame. For a slightly higher capital cost the then government could have built a modern railway with multiple passing loops on a more direct alignment (above the water table mind). People would've actually used it.

Muckyboots

Consonata wrote: »

Which by last current projections, looks like it will cost in the region of 400 million, twice as much as a train line with no tolling so no hope of getting any of that cash back.

http://www.tuamherald.ie/news/roundup/articles/2014/03/28/4024584-m17-will-cost-as-much-to-drop-as-to-finish

A Greenway would cost less than 10% of the cost of reinstating ( re building actually) Rail and would return multiples of what would be invested on it in a relatively short period of time. Unlike rail, the return would be wide spread over all the towns and villages and not just centred on Claremorris as a rail hub.

Consonata

Muckyboots wrote: »

Consonata wrote: »

Which by last current projections, looks like it will cost in the region of 400 million, twice as much as a train line with no tolling so no hope of getting any of that cash back.

http://www.tuamherald.ie/news/roundup/articles/2014/03/28/4024584-m17-will-cost-as-much-to-drop-as-to-finish

A Greenway would cost less than 10% of the cost of reinstating ( re building actually) Rail and would return multiples of what would be invested on it in a relatively short period of time. Unlike rail, the return would be wide spread over all the towns and villages and not just centred on Claremorris as a rail hub.

That's very true, I'm not opposed to building the greenway, I just think it should be done along side an actual railway. That figure I quoted is for an upgrade to the existing N17 to 400 Mil, double what a fully functioning Sligo train would cost

Jayop

Consonata wrote: »

That's very true, I'm not opposed to building the greenway, I just think it should be done along side an actual railway. That figure I quoted is for an upgrade to the existing N17 to 400 Mil, double what a fully functioning Sligo train would cost

Double what the train will cost but more useful by a factor of much more than double. The majority of commuting along the n17 is shorter distances of 20 or 30 miles. A train is no use to get people along the n17 looking to go to work in sligo or claremorris.

Carawaystick

Jayop wrote: »

A train is no use to get people along the n17 looking to go to work in

Parkmore, or Ballybane or anywhere not near Eyre Square really.

LeinsterDub

cgcsb wrote: »

The existing WRC between Ennis and Athenry is a real shame. For a slightly higher capital cost the then government could have built a modern railway with multiple passing loops on a more direct alignment (above the water table mind). People would've actually used it.

Except they won't as road is quicker and cheaper .

Grandeeod

Read the original and best WRC thread on Boards.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=141318

Learn. Understand. Teach.

Take your time with it as it started over 13 years ago.:D

cgcsb

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Except they won't as road is quicker and cheaper .

????which is why I said the state should have built a modern, I.e fast railway instead of riving this Victorian route.

LeinsterDub

cgcsb wrote: »

????which is why I said the state should have built a modern, I.e fast railway instead of riving this Victorian route.

Unless you talking tgv then driving will be quicker for the vast majority

Grandeeod

cgcsb wrote: »

????which is why I said the state should have built a modern, I.e fast railway instead of riving this Victorian route.

In an ideal world with a population density to justify it, you may be right. Perhaps if that aspect was explored and developed somewhat, then the WRC could be in the Q along with MN and DU, which are entering yet more exploration.

flazio

cgcsb wrote: »

Double tracking the existing railway between Portarlington and Athlone would deliver far reaching benefits for the west, slashing journey times to Dublin and increasing the frequency of service. A slow windy rail route between athenry and claremorris wont be of any use when there is an empty parallel motorway, after all folks in the west love their cars.

Not really viable without major work around Tullamore. Very tight section after the station.

https://goo.gl/maps/creAti1ZrVT2

Muckyboots

How many road crossings are there on the WRC between Claremorris and Tuam and what impact would these have on the potential speed of any given train, passenger or freight ?

cgcsb

cgcsb wrote: »

Double tracking the existing railway between Portarlington and Athlone would deliver far reaching benefits for the west, slashing journey times to Dublin and increasing the frequency of service. A slow windy rail route between athenry and claremorris wont be of any use when there is an empty parallel motorway, after all folks in the west love their cars.

flazio wrote: »

Not really viable without major work around Tullamore. Very tight section after the station.

https://goo.gl/maps/creAti1ZrVT2

Just a bit of rock removal, not too difficult to do these days, the land was reserved for a double track rail line when originally constructed as was normal practice back in the day.
All the infrastructure along the route is already built for a double track line.
Not very clear but you can see the track is offset to the southwest of the alignment in this image.(it can be clearly seen further along the line)
https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.2692686,-7.4972114,297m/data=!3m1!1e3

flazio

D.L.R. wrote: »

Closing the line here (if that's even necessary) would only affect Galway and Mayo services. This could be solved by reopening Mullingar-Athlone during the construction works, keeping the closure limited to the Tullamore/Clara section.

Which would destroy the greenway which appears to have gained quite a fan base.

Mearings

Double tracking the Portarlington - Athlone would be great but the big problem is the width of the bridges both over & under.

http://industrialheritageireland.info/TikiWiki/tiki-index.php?page=Portarlington+to+Galway

<<<The line from Portarlington to Athlone has always been single. From Athlone to Ballinasloe was singled between 1928 & 1931. From Attymon to Athenry was singled in 1927 with Oranmore to Galway singled in 1926. All other track is single. >>>

Mearings

Mearings wrote: »

Double tracking the Portarlington - Athlone would be great but the big problem is the width of the bridges both over & under.

http://industrialheritageireland.info/TikiWiki/tiki-index.php?page=Portarlington+to+Galway

<<<The line from Portarlington to Athlone has always been single. From Athlone to Ballinasloe was singled between 1928 & 1931. From Attymon to Athenry was singled in 1927 with Oranmore to Galway singled in 1926. All other track is single. >>>

Please read my post a couple up, the "permanent way" was constructed to be upgradeable to double track if needed and all the infrastructure along the line will take a double track.

This is a section just north of Tullamore, note that the track is offset in the land set aside for the railway, there is already space available for the second track.
https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.278277,-7.5089199,296m/data=!3m1!1e3
You can't see it, but the bridge has been built to take two tracks just the second span hasn't been installed.

D.L.R.

flazio wrote: »

Which would destroy the greenway which appears to have gained quite a fan base.

Then as the other poster says, you install the second track at Tullamore.

Our extensive motorway network could more than accomodate the resulting disruption.

Mearings

http://www.offaly.ie/eng/Services/Heritage/Documents/Offaly_Bridges_Part_1.pdf page 29

The road-over bridges between Portarlington to Tullamore have a 30ft span (similar to Dublin - Cork line) but between Tullamore - Athlone the bridges have a span of 28ft.

Mearings

Mearings wrote: »

http://www.offaly.ie/eng/Services/Heritage/Documents/Offaly_Bridges_Part_1.pdf page 29

The road-over bridges between Portarlington to Tullamore have a 30ft span (similar to Dublin - Cork line) but between Tullamore - Athlone the bridges have a span of 28ft.

Still wide enough for two tracks though, just less clearance.

cgcsb

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Unless you talking tgv then driving will be quicker for the vast majority

No, Irish rail is more than capable of running services at 160km/h which is why Dublin-Cork is much faster by train than by Car. We could've built a modern railway that delivers a better journey time.

cgcsb

Grandeeod wrote: »

In an ideal world with a population density to justify it, you may be right. Perhaps if that aspect was explored and developed somewhat, then the WRC could be in the Q along with MN and DU, which are entering yet more exploration.

If we were building a slow windy, sub aqua, railway anyway and could somehow justify that I don't see how we couldn't justify a few extra € on a modern solution.

cgcsb

flazio wrote: »

Not really viable without major work around Tullamore. Very tight section after the station.

https://goo.gl/maps/creAti1ZrVT2

Even if Tullamore remained single and the rest double, it would offer much more benefits to rail services in the west than the underwater victorian railway.

Thread title is misleading, there is no phase 2 and no plans for a phase 2.

A more accurate title would be WRC - Athenry to Claremorris - A fools folly

Or maybe - Fool me once....

Or - A study of the absurd

Or - How to destroy that which you love

Or - How one line killed rail development for a country

And so on

marno21

Deleted User wrote: »

Thread title is misleading, there is no phase 2 and no plans for a phase 2.

A more accurate title would be WRC - Athenry to Claremorris - A fools folly

Or maybe - Fool me once....

Or - A study of the absurd

Or - How to destroy that which you love

Or - How one line killed rail development for a country

And so on

http://connachttribune.ie/economic-review-of-rail-line-from-athenry-to-claremorris-022/

Muckyboots

marno21 wrote: »

http://connachttribune.ie/economic-review-of-rail-line-from-athenry-to-claremorris-022/

It's a cheap political trick. A "needs must" compromise for the formation of a raggle taggle government, but inherently dishonest and wasteful.