Add submersible pump to existing electric shower or...new shower?

Dardania

Hi there,

Getting bamboozled and could do with a sanity check...

Situation is the mains fed electric shower tends to get low pressure nearly any time we use it at "peak" times, largely due I suspect to having a shared mains water incomer with the next door neighbour (one stop cock between us).
This is quite unsatisfying, and the War Department has directed that I resolve.

The way I see it, I have three main options (and am open to additional please):

Option 1. Replace the electric shower (a Triton T100xr 9.5kW) with a pumped electric shower
(I have in mind something like this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B004UK4O76/ref=s9_simh_gw_p201_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=desktop-1&pf_rd_r=A25RTMMC5NCQD7SDZ3PV&pf_rd_t=36701&pf_rd_p=867551807&pf_rd_i=desktop)
In favour of this option is 10sq. cable to the shower, the vertical body of the replacement will cover the old body position on the tiles, and it is easy to disconnect the shower pipe from the mains to it's own feed from the cold water tank.
In a cheap world, I am leaning towards this. But I don't want to lose the quiet shower I have...

Option 2. Fit a booster pump to the cold water tank.
I found this:
http://www.rvr.ie/Products/ACW120/0_44_64/ as an example.
Although the price is steep. In favour of this is I had an electric fused spur left near the tank for such a possibility last year when getting electric work done, and the pipework going down to shower is easy to intercept.
I would like to do this, but am worried about not choosing the right pump for the job (e.g. too large) and also cost...

Option 3. Try to normalise the mains water connection situation such that we have our own direct connection. And reduced pressure losses on the incomer.
This is possibly something I need to do in the next few years anyhow, as we have what appears to be a lead incomer (we drink bottled water anyway, as we have Wicklow derived water, so soft).
But this opens up a lot of cost (opening the ground, tidy up inside etc.), has no guarantee of success, and the thoughts of trying to negotiate with Irish Water fill me with dread.

What do the experts think? Any other options? Some other pumping solution e.g. is there truly a pump that can be on the same level as a cold water tank, and not cavitate?

Sleeper12

Dardania wrote:

Option 1. Replace the electric shower (a Triton T100xr 9.5kW) with a pumped electric shower (I have in mind something like this:

The model in the photo is called triton t900pi in Ireland. It's basically a triton t90 but In the shape the suits you. Its a good 9 kw shower. The submerged pump would be quieter

Dardania

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Dardania wrote:

Option 1. Replace the electric shower (a Triton T100xr 9.5kW) with a pumped electric shower (I have in mind something like this:

The model in the photo is called triton t900pi in Ireland. It's basically a triton t90 but In the shape the suits you. Its a good 9 kw shower. The submerged pump would be quieter

Okay thanks for that - good to know. Their website is a bit confusing with the model numbers alright.

I reckon a submerged pump would be quieter too, but trying to justify 200 for queitness is tough.

On the reliability front, would a submerged pump be more reliable than the pump in a shower?

Sleeper12

The pump on the Triton T900pi will last roughly 8 to 10 years (or as long as 20 depending on use). It'll cost €150 to get it supplied & fitted when it needs replacing or you may need to replace the shower for around €320 after 10 years.
I solely do showers now so I'm not up on the pumps performance. Some of the other plumbers on here might be able to help you out.

Sleeper12

The pump on the Triton T900pi will last roughly 8 to 10 years (or as long as 20 depending on use). It'll cost €150 to get it supplied & fitted when it needs replacing or you may need to replace the shower for around €320 after 10 years.
I solely do showers now so I'm not up on the pumps performance. Some of the other plumbers on here might be able to help you out.

rolion

I have fitted a "performant" submersible pump in my attic water tank.
After a week of crazy noises, bangs, cracks, hammer special effects and so on I have replace it with a standalone variable speed drive pump(VFD type) with soft start-up / soft stop. All running quiet, with no more ghostly noises across the pipes.

Dardania

rolion wrote: »

I have fitted a "performant" submersible pump in my attic water tank.
After a week of crazy noises, bangs, cracks, hammer special effects and so on I have replace it with a standalone variable speed drive pump(VFD type) with soft start-up / soft stop. All running quiet, with no more ghostly noises across the pipes.

What make model did you end up with?
One of the concerns with getting a submersible for me is I'll choose the wrong one...

jodaw

This pump seems very quiet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjB06P2V3Dg

Looks very similar to DAB Booster silent
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjyKbwmLFUE

http://www.consolidatedpumps.com/products/catalogue/DAB/Booster-Silent-from-%C3%A2%E2%80%9A%C2%AC309+-VAT

Dardania

jodaw wrote: »

This pump seems very quiet

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjB06P2V3Dg

Looks very similar to DAB Booster silent
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjyKbwmLFUE

http://www.consolidatedpumps.com/products/catalogue/DAB/Booster-Silent-from-%C3%A2%E2%80%9A%C2%AC309+-VAT

That looks like an easy one to fit, and doesn't sound too bad either. Money is good also...
Could be a winner...

From trying to decipher the pump curve chart, would it maybe be too much pressure & flow for my existing shower?:
http://www.tritonshowers.co.uk/media/custom/upload/File-1383227922.pdf

I have the 9.5kW version, which needs 10l/m @ 1 bar, whereas that pump would be up around 3 bar - will the water from shower still get hot enough?

http://www.consolidatedpumps.com/download/1/Booster Silent PDF.pdf

Dardania

So I got in touch with Triton's email support desk, who suggest I check out the T150Z Pumped shower, in order to have roughly the same holes / opes / pipe connection as my old T100xr.
Nice looking shower, but at 440 according to a distributor in Kildare, pricey...
https://www.tritonshowers.co.uk/electric-showers/t150z-pumped-thermostatic-electric-shower.html

The same distributo suggested I check out the Walrus TQ200 pump, at a much more reasonable 260
http://www.walruspump.com/en-global/product/detail/58

Will now investigate what its noise levels etc. are compared to the DAB Booster

RebelButtMunch

Dardania wrote: »

Option 2. Fit a booster pump to the cold water tank.

Won't this mean the pump will come on when the loo flushes or the bathroom sink is used?

jodaw

Food for thought.

The DAB seems to have 1" outlets showing the flow will be reduce naturally when pipe is reduced to 1/2". Also in think the shower will only allow a maximum flow through and at 10.5kw should heat as desired.

They also have DAB 3M 1.5 which is 1.5Bar

I was considering a Dab to fed one/two non pumped 8.5kw showers and cold taps around house.

One other things is in think the Dab is watercooled so no airflow required. This means in theory that you could deaden noise even more with correct materials.

That triton you linked is a very expensive electric shower.

I'd imagine its a case of you get what you pay for with the walrus pump. Will do the job but will be as noisy as any standard pump. If the pump noise is not an issue you could go this route.

There are tiny 260w pumps that could possibly boost your water sufficiently on your shower.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Priming-Automatic-Washing-Machine-Booster/dp/B00L90478Q/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1462801860&sr=8-1&keywords=260w+pump

Cheap chinese things, but maybe it might help if only feeding one shower?

Sleeper12

The triton t150z is overkill. It's thermostatic & was really designed for people with special needs or nursing homes.
If you want a Pumped electric shower the t90z is a great shower. If the wall is a stud partition it's easy to move pipe and cable. The triton t900pi is also a good shower if you need a portrait shape rather than landscape

Dardania

RebelButtMunch wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

Option 2. Fit a booster pump to the cold water tank.

Won't this mean the pump will come on when the loo flushes or the bathroom sink is used?

Good point but not an issue in our case, as the shower pipe runs individually back up to the tank (so I can nicely separate)

jodaw wrote: »

Food for thought.

The DAB seems to have 1" outlets showing the flow will be reduce naturally when pipe is reduced to 1/2". Also in think the shower will only allow a maximum flow through and at 10.5kw should heat as desired.

They also have DAB 3M 1.5 which is 1.5Bar

I was considering a Dab to fed one/two non pumped 8.5kw showers and cold taps around house.

One other things is in think the Dab is watercooled so no airflow required. This means in theory that you could deaden noise even more with correct materials.

That triton you linked is a very expensive electric shower.

I'd imagine its a case of you get what you pay for with the walrus pump. Will do the job but will be as noisy as any standard pump. If the pump noise is not an issue you could go this route.

There are tiny 260w pumps that could possibly boost your water sufficiently on your shower.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Priming-Automatic-Washing-Machine-Booster/dp/B00L90478Q/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1462801860&sr=8-1&keywords=260w+pump

Cheap chinese things, but maybe it might help if only feeding one shower?

In the end, took your original suggestion, and went for the DAB (the 3m one). And...it is an excellent pump. Good pressure & good flow, and the noise is very tolerable - when in the shower you sometimes have a sensation of a far away buzz, and when beneath the pump itself, it's noticeable but in no ways intrusive. I just now have to figure out a way to thermally insulate the lot (winter seems awfully far off!) and it's a big pump - but the benefits of it being watercooled will show itself then...

The 1" outlets on the DAB caught me alright - had to reduce via 3/4" as an intermediate step, but all good. I had the supplied expansion vessel fitted, however took it off as it didn't seal correctly (I guess as I didn't tighten the threaded seat for enough) - don't really need an expansion vessel with one appliance off the pipe anyway.

Working with polycarbonate fittings is a bit more worrying than brass - I was always concerned I'd overtighten or badly thread, and crack, but all was good.

Great suggestion!

Sleeper12 wrote: »

The triton t150z is overkill. It's thermostatic & was really designed for people with special needs or nursing homes.
If you want a Pumped electric shower the t90z is a great shower. If the wall is a stud partition it's easy to move pipe and cable. The triton t900pi is also a good shower if you need a portrait shape rather than landscape

The funny thing is, now that I am with decent pressure / flow, I can see why a thermostatic shower might be nice as I can sometimes feel the shower I have slightly "hunting" for the perfect temp - total first world problem! But yes, T90z is a good shower - used one in a friend's house weekend before last, and mounted to an external (block) wall, not too much reverb

Sleeper12

Enjoy your new shower.