Guardiola's Legacy at Bayern

SlickRic

Out at the semis of the Champions League yet again.

He has dominated the domestic scene, and for better or worse, has stamped his style on the Bayern team.

Bayern have the pick of the German league's best players to choose from, even being able to nab their biggest challengers' best players (see Lewandowski and Gotze recently; and the likes of Lucio and Ballack in previous years. Even Neuer. Also Hummels next season seemingly). They can also spend big money on the likes of Vidal and Thiago from other European giants.

Is it enough to dominate domestically when you're at such and advantage, and can his time be seen as a definitive success? Or, is the fact he hasn't even made a Champions League final too big a blot to ignore? Can he possibly be deemed a failure?

Personally, I'd lean towards him simply doing a decent job. You can't underestimate the iron grip that is on the Bundesliga, but there has to be a caveat to his time there, as you cannot ignore the inability to even reach a Champions League final in 3 years, no matter how difficult someone wants to argue that it is to win the competition. Atletico have reached 2 finals during Pep's time at Bayern, for instance.

Anyway, discuss.

Shanotheslayer

He did a decent job.

Nothing exceptional. Reached the Semi Finals, which would be considered a must for him. But as Giggsy in the other thread pointed out. If Atletico go on and win it, he's lost to the winners the last 3 times, which is no shame.

I think a lot of the Pep hate on here is based mostly because of how AIG goes on and some posters don't like that so want to swipe at it every chance they get.

It'll be interesting how Pep gets on at City. Surely a Prem win and CL top 4 would be considered very good for City.

Or even a Double. Altho City are one of the best teams in England, it's now been 2 years since they won the Prem. But of course people will look past that if Pep wins it for them.

Mr.Nice Guy

I think it's comparable to Mourinho's time at Madrid. Success domestically, but not looked upon in glowing terms because of the failure in Europe.

Amusingly, Ancelotti followed up Mourinho at Madrid and brought them the Champions League they craved and I wouldn't be at all shocked if he does the same thing for Bayern.

Richard Hillman

His rep is very similar to Ronnie Delia at Celtic

Dirty Dingus McGee

No legacy at all I would think.

They won Bundesliga titles regularly before he got there and they will win them regularly after he leaves.If anything he made the team worse rather than better during his time there.

I'd imagine greatness at Bayern (and all of Europes great clubs) are defined by winning in Europe and managers who don't win in Europe are forgotten fairly quickly.

I'd say a more easy going manager like Ancellotti who understands that not pushing their players to the limit all the time (as we have been told Guardiola does) and instead pacing themselves across the season and for Europe will be more of a success than Guardiola who seemed not to understand that pushing the players to the limit all the time in the process of dominating the Bundesliga was not what he was brought in to do.

Also Bayern by almost always trying to stifle their rivals by buying their best players (although most top clubs do this) is counter productive in my opinion.They would be far better off having stronger rivals in the Bundesliga and losing a few Bundesliga titles every now and then would be no harm for them.

bucketybuck

He did nothing that plenty of other managers couldn't have done, he took the biggest and strongest side in Germany and won the league, a minimum expectation.

It isn't failure, but neither is it enough to sustain the narrative some people wanted to build around Pep, the so-called world's greatest.

He's probably a good manager, even if he has only ever been handed the best teams, and I can see why he could have his pick of jobs but hopefully the fawning over him dies down a little.

Mushy

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

He did a decent job.

Nothing exceptional. Reached the Semi Finals, which would be considered a must for him. But as Giggsy in the other thread pointed out. If Atletico go on and win it, he's lost to the winners the last 3 times, which is no shame.

I think a lot of the Pep hate on here is based mostly because of how AIG goes on and some posters don't like that so want to swipe at it every chance they get.

It'll be interesting how Pep gets on at City. Surely a Prem win and CL top 4 would be considered very good for City.

Or even a Double. Altho City are one of the best teams in England, it's now been 2 years since they won the Prem. But of course people will look past that if Pep wins it for them.

Dunno if people hate Pep on here, but now he has to have some comparison to Hynckes team. In that sense, he has fallen short trophy wise. And practicality wise. Bayern under Hynckes would've won more IMO.

With city, one league and a top 4 cl should be the minimum aim. If he's as great as people say, then I'd say two titles and at least a CL final appearance. With their money they should be dominating more, he needs to bring that to the club. He should have the ability to get them to a final then too.

I think his style might hamper city winning successive titles though, will depend on personnel brought in

monkey9

I don't think he's been a failure overall at Bayern as he's done the business domestically. That's really the minimum expectancy for him though and i'm sure a major part of his appointment was to take them to another level in Europe. He hasn't done that. The hammering they took against Real Madrid really popped the Guardiola bubble to an extent.

He followed a Heynckes treble winning season and he may well be following a Man City European Cup winning season. Interesting times ahead with Guardiola at City.

GavRedKing

7 out of 10, Heynckes was better.

TheCitizen

Richard Hillman wrote: »

His rep is very similar to Ronnie Delia at Celtic

:pac: Have to have a laugh at that in a few ways.

MD1990

He has done ok. He over complicates things though. Tries to be too smart constantly changing systems & formations. Bayern have never really had a settled best 11. Playing Lahm in midfield, Gotze false 9 at one point & even playing 6 wingers/full backs in certain games. Even tonight Costa has been at his best as an out & out winger but he played as an AM instead. Also Thiago not playing was surprising too.

UnitedIrishman

So much has to go in a teams favour for them to win it. The margins are so small between winning and losing from the QF onwards. Only for Neuer in the final against Dortmund they might not have won then either - and that was a better side than the current one.

A lot of what is logically going to happen goes out the window in the CL - Chelsea winning it with a manager who has done nothing since (beating Barcelona at home on route to doing so), Porto and Monaco reaching the final, Milan under Ancelotti won more CL titles than Serie A titles. Like everyone thought Mourinho at Real was always going to mean a CL title (he wins it with Inter and Porto who were lesser sides than Chelsea and Real) at some stage but football doesn't work like that.

To judge a manager on winning a CL is very harsh IMO but I will say he probably only achieved the minimum requirement (semi-final every year) in it. He's cemented Bayern at the top of the German League for a number of years and looks unlikely to be knocked off it any time soon - so it's not all doom and gloom.

ionadnapokot

I think he did ok. B minus. But no Legacy of achievement or team building.
Most tellingly though is what Heynckes achieved in comparison. Heynckes took over a team that had fin the season in 3rd. And brought them to two champions league finals. Winning the treble in his last season.

ultimately what undermines Pep the most is his apparent blindness at Centre Back. However, in his defense (u like that?) Benatia was injured for a significant portion of his reign.

I will be watching very keenly what he is going to do with the centre back partnership at City.

Oat23

If the board were happy with a league & cup every year, they could have saved themselves €14m and hired any other Bundesliga manager. Because any manager in the league would win the title with Bayern and their €230m budget.

They wanted CL titles, which is why they hired him and paid him €16m per year. He has not won a CL title, so he has failed to achieve what he was hired to do.

Thecon21

Yeah I'd say he's reached his minimum targets each year with league title and CL Semi's.. So he's done a solid job, but not a spectacular one..
Be very interesting to see how his style plays out in the PL week in week out..

TheCitizen

Ancelotti takes over, I reckon Bayern Munich will be fine in the wake of Guardiola's departure. Can Guardiola bring Man City to the next step?

Utopia Parkway

It'll hardly be a fantastic one will it? He was brought there to win Champions League titles. They see the league as a given. Leaving without one CL title (or even reaching a final) can only be seen as failure at the end of the day. Harsh as it sounds. That was why they brought him to the club.

Dempsey

Guardiola has done distinctly average at Bayern given everything in place at the club before his arrival.

ManC cant play much poorer domestically so at least expectations there will be slightly more favourable if Pellegrini doesnt pull of a miracle in the UCL

He won the World Cup for Germany, surely that's enough?

~Rebel~

Yup, to echo others, he's achieved the minimum expectation, so has done a decent job in that sense - certainly not a failure, but not a success either. Par.

I would have loved to have seen him do something different at Bayern - taking what was great about Heynckes team and adding an extra dimension, but instead he tore up a perfectly good plan and implanted an arguably inferior, less dynamic one.

This approach will probably serve Man City better though. They kind of need a total teardown and rebuild anyway, so I imagine a Pep team will be a step up on whats there, bringing in a solid ethos. I think it'll take a season though - wouldn't expect anything next year.

UnitedIrishman

Oat23 wrote: »

If the board were happy with a league & cup every year, they could have saved themselves €14m and hired any other Bundesliga manager. Because any manager in the league would win the title with Bayern and their €230m budget.

They wanted CL titles, which is why they hired him and paid him €16m per year. He has not won a CL title, so he has failed to achieve what he was hired to do.

To be fair apart from this season he hasn't spent that much when he was there to maintain it. Less than a €100m when you take into account sales of players, Dortmund have spent around €50m during the same period with the same parameters involved so it's not as if he's torched a massive amount of money.

Easy to say any manager would do it but it's not always the case.

StringerBell

As has been said, if they just wanted to win the league every year they could have had any number of managers. He was hired in principle to bring European success, in that he has failed, not even reaching a final in his 3 years.

It may be harsh to judge a manager who has won 3 league titles in a row a failure ultimately, but given the status he enjoys, and the salary he demands coupled with his achievements being no more then you would reasonably expect any good manager, one who would be on a short list Bayern would draw up, to have, I can't say I would disagree with the sentiment.

Pep is a good manager, the worlds best? I am not so sure and his time at Bayern will have to go down as unremarkable.

StringerBell

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

To be fair apart from this season he hasn't spent that much when he was there to maintain it. Less than a €100m when you take into account sales of players, Dortmund have spent around €50m during the same period with the same parameters involved so it's not as if he's torched a massive amount of money.

Easy to say any manager would do it but it's not always the case.

The only way this matters is if the Dortmund and Bayern squads were on level footing when Pep came in. Were they?

Toobz

Heynckes was a far better coach. That was clear when his Bayern side beat Peps Barca 7-0 over 2 ties.

I reckon he was offered multiple jobs this season but the path of least resistance is where he will always go. Would not be surprised if he takes the managerial role at PSG when he thinks they are fit to win a champions league which will only be a few years away.

FatherTed

Took Heynckes' treble winning team, added Gotze, Lewa, Vidal, Costa, Benatia, Xabi, Thiago and turned into perennial semi-finalists.

~Rebel~

Toobz wrote: »

Heynckes was a far better coach. That was clear when his Bayern side beat Peps Barca 7-0 over 2 ties.

Not sure this is a totally fair comparison...while it was still a side made in Pep's image a year after he left, I don't think we can quite put the loss on his head when he had no direct involvement in it.

RedemptionZ

Achieved minimum objectives and never exceeded them. Made the team worse than they were when he took over. Didn't do terribly but has very little legacy to speak of.

Interesting to see how he gets on in City, he won't have as easy a time.

Toobz

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Not sure this is a totally fair comparison...while it was still a side made in Pep's image a year after he left, I don't think we can quite put the loss on his head when he had no direct involvement in it.

Forgot his years sabbatical. Sweeping statement retracted!

~Rebel~

Toobz wrote: »

Forgot his years sabbatical. Sweeping statement retracted!

Ha, it is still an interesting point though, in that even if he wasn't there, it was still a case of Heynkesball soundly beating Guardiolaball, at least in terms of ethos.

Toobz

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Ha, it is still an interesting point though, in that even if he wasn't there, it was still a case of Heynkesball beating Guardiolaball, at least in terms of ethos.

Was gonna say this. If people want to say he leaves his mark on a team then his football style was put to the sword those nights. The style and players hadnt changed at that stage.

dfx-

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Ha, it is still an interesting point though, in that even if he wasn't there, it was still a case of Heynkesball soundly beating Guardiolaball, at least in terms of ethos.

Heynckes' Munich were Barca-lite in 2012-13. Heynckesball was very similar to Guardiolaball for all but that semifinal.

That semifinal has legendary mythical properties.

Turtwig

Heynckes team were good but overrated. They played a lot like pep's Barca though .Flattered by a result against a well below par Barcelona (no pique, injury plagued busquets, Messi and a very sick coach). Either team that played tonight would have beaten them - and very probably heynckes Bayern too.

Pep's legacy at Bayern in terms of evolving the club was a success - You only need to look at how desperate they were to keep him, how many accommodations they were willing to try to make. His legacy though in terms of the ultimate objective was a failure.

Under Pep, Bayern are a cohesive flexible tactical unit that can play any system. Doesn't count for anything though because he ultimately failed the big but I think in the long term Bayern will be happy they appointed him. In lahms words they learned so much and they will refine everything even further.

I for one cannot wait to see Carlo blend this team with his own blend of ruthless pragmatism and flair.

Turtwig

Toobz wrote: »

Was gonna say this. If people want to say he leaves his mark on a team then his football style was put to the sword those nights. The style and players hadnt changed at that stage.

Barca in the first half of season under Tito were scintillating. They played some mesmeric stuff at times. That (January?) game against Malaga will forever be in my memory. Wanted desperately for malaga to win but busquets that night was just a beast. Four players snapping on his heels: let's just do a rondo, and sure why not do another? Might as well do another. Malagas press was impressive but they were made to look like utter idiots.

How much of that was pep's mark or titos we'll sadly never know.

dfx-

I'd be saying he'd get an 8/10, maybe 8.5 on a school report at Munich. For a reactionary, highly strung club, everything has been calm and it's a testament to him that both players and those upstairs wanted to keep him on as recently as Christmas.

He did pretty ok.

He's been beaten in champions league latter stages by excellent teams tbf

Boskowski

I think he did an OK job. He brought a new style to Bayern, he attracted greatly talented players to the team and he is likely to win 3 leagues during his tenure although this years title is not completely wrapped up just yet. But nearly.
Which is no small feat although some posters seem to believe the bundesliga is a one team show. Which it isn't really. Bayerns dominance has gotten bigger in recent years but that's out of necessity. The gap between the league and the top tier in Europe is simply too big. In order to compete in Europe you simply gonna have to reach a quality level that will dominate this league. Only for the insane tv money the situation in England would be similar. This PL season has been a bit of a healthy aberration but typically no more than 2 or 3 teams are seemed capable of winning the league in England too. But anyway.
He knew with the resources available to him at least 2 league titles were expected of him. But he was always going to be judged by his success in Europe, especially with his successor winning the treble and his signing considered to be the coup of all coups at the time. So in that regard he failed. One smi final defeat is football, two is bad luck with a raised eyebrow, with three there is a pattern emerging. Wouldn't it be ironic if the same thing happened to him in Manchester? Arrive to a side that just won the champions league?
Me personally I think he was good possibly even better than that for Bayern and if I could turn back time Id still want him to sign for them but I think Heynckes Bayern were better and I think I'm going to like Ancelotti's Bayern more too.
But he's a great coach even yesterday I was impressed what with no tiki taka at all, kitchen sink from the first minute. He's not that dogmatic that he would be unable to adapt to a situation.

NIMAN

Personally I think his time will be viewed as slightly disappointing.

Winning his own league was a given, it was done before he arrived and will be done once he's gone, as others have said.

Don't get this logic of 'he lost 3 semis to good teams '. That's exactly why bayern paid him huge money, he was meant to be the best, a revolutionary coach who would bring the club success against the best. IMHO then, he failed to do that. Logic would say that bayern would have been better off if they had employed the managers who outdone Pep in those CL semis. For him to have a 0/3 success rate when it came to the crunch games is definitely a blot on his CL management record.

But hey, that's only my opinion. Others will say he did a fantastic job at Munich. Sure didn't he have 75% possession last night.

bucketybuck

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

To be fair apart from this season he hasn't spent that much when he was there to maintain it. Less than a €100m when you take into account sales of players, Dortmund have spent around €50m during the same period with the same parameters involved so it's not as if he's torched a massive amount of money.

Easy to say any manager would do it but it's not always the case.

Are you not basically saying that this season alone he spent double that of Bayerns nearest rival despite already having by far the strongest squad in the league?

derfderf

bucketybuck wrote: »

Are you not basically saying that this season alone he spent double that of Bayerns nearest rival despite already having by far the strongest squad in the league?

Got some top quality out of contract players too due to the allure of Bayern.

Boskowski

FatherTed wrote: »

Took Heynckes' treble winning team, added Gotze, Lewa, Vidal, Costa, Benatia, Xabi, Thiago and turned into perennial semi-finalists.

Not to forget getting rid of Toni Kroos. Still the biggest wtf for me.

Andersonisgod

Boskowski wrote: »

Not to forget getting rid of Toni Kroos. Still the biggest wtf for me.

Guardiola wanted to build a midfield around him, his wage demands would have completely broken Bayern's well established wage structure, Real Madrid were willing to pay the exorbitant fees. Simple as.

Unearthly

Wouldn't call it failure.

Just goes to show how hard it is to win the competition and shows how great his Barca team was.

klose

Par job really, you'd have to imagine atleast one cl trophy was a minumum given the squad he inherited and players he signed. Playing lahm in midfield has to be one of the oddest things ive ever seen, made no sense.

GLaDOS

Steamrolling the league 3 years in a row is impressive tbf, even with such an expensive squad. It's easy to say a team should be winning it every year, but it often takes a quality manager to make it happen. Be interesting to see if Ancellotti can replicate that.

Shows the weight of expectation on him that 3 CL semi finals in a row is considered a failure, though the manner of defeat (conceding 5 goals in both ties) to Barca and Real the previous 2 years probably doesn't help. Both teams went on to win the trophy and it may well happen with Atletico again.

Overall I'd say he did a good job, not a great job.

eagle eye

How many Bayern Munich managers have won three Bundesliga titles in a row?
How many times have they won four league titles in a row?

How many managers get to the Champion's league final with every club they go to within three years?

How many managers make the semi-final of the Champion's league every year?

I think Pep is held to a much higher standard that every other manager which is not his fault. Well maybe it is because he just happened to be the manager of probably the greatest side in football in my lifetime.

He has done a fine job at Bayern, if he stayed there a couple of more years I'm pretty confident he would have won a Champion's league but three years is a very small window to come in with a new football philosophy and go and win the Champion's league.

The media set him up as the greatest manager of the modern era because of that Barcelona team and now they are looking to take him down. He won't get long at City to do his thing either.

I'm not a fan of the man but I loved everything about that Barcelona team. If you don't have a prime Xavi Hernandez you can't do what he did there though.

Anyways I just feel he did very well at Bayern and I'm not going to ever think you have to win the Champion's league to have done a great job. As mentioned already in this thread his Munich lost to Real Madrid who went on to win it two years ago and then to Barcelona who went on to win it last season. Nothing wrong with losing out to the other two powerhouses of European football.

Atletico this year proved that there is a weakness to exploit in the way he sets up his teams just like Mourinho's Inter did a couple of years back to the great Barcelona team.

chopperbyrne

He's performed below what Bayern would have expected of him.

They would have expected him to take over the reigning European champions and win some more CL trophies.

He hasn't done that, and the team are playing worse football than when he took over.

Harry Palmr

Biggest budget by a mile, buy the best players from your closest competitors (the Bundesliga needs to find a way to make this less likely), win the league and a cup (maybe two). He's done the bare minimum, and that's all. It's not as if he's laid down foundations for the medium to long term, when Ancelotti takes over he'll put his mark on the side and recruitment policy will alter.

bucketybuck

eagle eye wrote: »

but three years is a very small window to come in with a new football philosophy and go and win the Champion's league.

Whose fault is that? Not only is it his own choice to leave after only 3 years, but also nobody made him change the clubs philosophy, nobody said that he wasn't allowed to be adaptable enough to change his own style to better suit the great squad he inherited.

galwaylad14

I think I'd agree with the general sentiment that he has done a decent but unspectacular job. Has achieved what would probably be considered "par for the course" for a team of that standard given the relative lack of domestic competition. He has won the league every season which is obviously impressive but their budget and quality of players dwarf everyone else in the league.

He has been beaten three times in the Champions League semi finals which again can't be faulted in that there are some brilliant teams around Europe but I think we'd have all expected Bayern to have won at least one Champions League in his three years.

So I think he has done decently and was one Champions League win away from doing what would have been considered an excellent job.

If he wins 3 League Titles in a row and an FA Cup at City while reaching three Champions League semi finals in a row then I think his time there will be considered a massive success but that's comparing Apples with Oranges as City play in a far more competitive league and are not the established European giants that Bayern are.

sky88

I think as someone said at the start of the thread its very comparable to jose at madrid. Success at domestic but failed at champions league.

Still he has done a fine job. I never really get the hate pep gets on here.

Flint Fredstone

He took over a team that won everything so he was on a hiding to nothing really. It's incredibly harsh to call his tenure a failure. It's so hard to win a Champions League, especially while trying to transform the way in which a team play. Bayern never really had that Ronaldo/Messi level player either. I would say they remained in most people's top 4 clubs on the planet the whole time he was there so even if you're to call it a failure it's only a minor one.