Phoenix Park cycle lane incident

Tenzor07

Let's hope the bicyclist and pedestrian make a speedy recovery:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/cyclist-fighting-for-life-after-a-collision-with-pedestrian-in-the-phoenix-park-34680463.html

http://jrnl.ie/2747711

buffalo

I was driving through the Park last night at the time - saw the blue flashing lights of a fire engine, ambulance and fire chief on the way to the scene. With that level of response and care, hopefully he'll be alright.

jon1981

Very sad.

Though a serious accident was on the cards, the pedestrian gets out of a car and has to cross a cycle lane to get to the pedestrian path. It's a silly design! I often cycle that way and its full of pedestrian and runners. They need to swap the lanes asap.

Beasty

Please do not speculate over the condition of the cyclist.

Also there is to be no speculation over the circumstances including cause or blame

Thanks

cython

Saw part of the cycle lane cordoned off this morning on the way by, but hadn't imagined at the time that it was apt to be something like this Pretty sobering sight as someone who commutes that route, even though I only use the cycle paths on the way out of town (and thus going slower uphill).

Fingers crossed for both parties involved anyway.

Rew

Friend of a friend saw this one happen, sounded nasty, cyclist hit his head pretty hard.

I came up on a similar incident a few years back the cyclist both had nasty cuts on their head. I don't come though the park anymore but plenty of close calls over the years.

average_runner

Its a crazy design in that park, some little kid is going to get a serious injury there and then the poor cyclist will have to live with it and it won't be their fault.

As for running on the cycle lane, if a runner is going to that, they got to run very close to the edge, be fully aware of whats going on and have no head phones. But better off not running on it.

Skatedude

Rew wrote: »

Friend of a friend saw this one happen, sounded nasty, cyclist hit his head pretty hard.

I came up on a similar incident a few years back the cyclist both had nasty cuts on their head. I don't come though the park anymore but plenty of close calls over the years.

The guards are asking for witnesses .

Rew

Skatedude wrote: »

The guards are asking for witnesses .

Yeah passed that on already

Tenzor07

If i'm cycling through the park i'll do everything to avoid using the cycle path, it's usually fine to use the road apart from the sections on both sides close to the zoo as there's constant movement from cars parking, though using the city bound section is very haphazard due to the numbers of people walking towards the Zoo...
It would be better to create a raised kerb/barrier cycle lane along the main road and set up a car park for the zoo somewhere else and charge people for it's use.
On a related note, the car parking on Wellington road is out of control with people parked haphazardly on each side of the road up the monument end...

And enforcement of the road speed limit in the park would be a good idea also..

Rew

Tenzor07 wrote: »

If i'm cycling through the park i'll do everything to avoid using the cycle path, it's usually fine to use the road apart from the sections on both sides close to the zoo as there's constant movement from cars parking, though using the city bound section is very haphazard due to the numbers of people walking towards the Zoo...
It would be better to create a raised kerb/barrier cycle lane along the main road and set up a car park for the zoo somewhere else and charge people for it's use.
On a related note, the car parking on Wellington road is out of control with people parked haphazardly on each side of the road up the monument end...

And enforcement of the road speed limit in the park would be a good idea also..

There is a car park for the Zoo but people still park along the road and walk down. Personally I think they should look at swapping the foot and cycle paths (hard to know how feasible that really is), making all the road crossings for bikes and pedestrians proper zebra crossings with right of way over cars and enforcing speed limits.

jack presley

Tenzor07 wrote: »

And enforcement of the road speed limit in the park would be a good idea also..

There's been a Garda van on Chesterfield Avenue on numerous occasions over the past few months and in all my years going through the park before this I had never seen any sort of enforcement.

Spanish Eyes

Very sorry to hear about this.

As a walker on that route, I also think the lanes should be swopped over. As another poster said, anyone getting out of a parked car instinctively might think the roadside lane is for walkers. It is not, therefore walkers have to cross the cycle lane. Dangerous at the best of times.

Not a good layout IMO. Should be swopped over ASAP as a start.

I wish both injured people well.

magicbastarder

Rew wrote: »

Personally I think they should look at swapping the foot and cycle paths

am i right in thinking that they've already been swapped once?

LollipopJimmy

jack presley wrote: »

There's been a Garda van on Chesterfield Avenue on numerous occasions over the past few months and in all my years going through the park before this I had never seen any sort of enforcement.

That Garda Van is the Gatso van and is usually only there for testing/training, they often have it on twitter.

Hopefully the cyclist makes a speedy recovery. That stretch forms part of one of my spins, I use the road myself and avoid the cycle lane

columbus_66

I usually stick to the road in the park, especially if you're going fast out training. I have used the cycle path up by the Ashtown gate though as it's quieter and wider. The cycle path up the main road is narrow and busy and cyclists have run into each other on that as well. I also find if there are pedestrians in front of you I don't say anything to tell them I am coming as from experience you have no idea what they will do so it's better to say nothing and pick your line beforehand.

jack presley

LollipopJimmy wrote: »

That Garda Van is the Gatso van and is usually only there for testing/training, they often have it on twitter.

Oh ok. Didn't know that.

Hopefully it's presence will still have some effect though.

Doctor Bob

magicbastarder wrote: »

am i right in thinking that they've already been swapped once?

I think so; about 10 years ago or so.

ED E

Really I dont think the design is that bad. There's a decent gap between the curb and path and it has full visibility on either side (and then a fence along a lot of it). If you move the lane out into the road you have doors opening in your face and drivers pulling out suddenly and I dont know that its practical to move it way further in.

Hope he recovers fully.

Spanish Eyes

ED E wrote: »

Really I dont think the design is that bad. There's a decent gap between the curb and path and it has full visibility on either side (and then a fence along a lot of it). If you move the lane out into the road you have doors opening in your face and drivers pulling out suddenly and I dont know that its practical to move it way further in.

Hope he recovers fully.

I think most people are thinking that the current cycle lane should be placed where the walking lane is now...i.e. further in.

niceonetom

It doesn't matter which one is which or what signs are erected - walkers will use both.

Tenzor07

there's cycle lanes along North road heading towards the main roundabout at the Aras, but there's cars parked on your right heading towards the roundabout which leads oncoming motor traffic to drive towards you in the cycle path, they also come from your right at the fork in the road a bit further down, was nearly side-swiped by one last week who didn't even look as he drove with half his car in the cycle lane.... lethal for the unwary!

eamonnq

Tenzor07 wrote: »

It would be better to create a raised kerb/barrier cycle lane along the main road and set up a car park for the zoo somewhere else and charge people for it's use.

Why should they charge people for using the car park ? Would they then not be more inclined to park elsewhere any way? Or should everybody be charged for parking in the park or how would you manage this ?

ED E

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I think most people are thinking that the current cycle lane should be placed where the walking lane is now...i.e. further in.

Personally not sure thats ideal though. Parents want to walk along the path while kids play, dogs sniff around etc. The mental metaphor of everything inside the fences is "road area" and outside is greenspace works. Daddy tells little Jimmy not to cross that fence and everyone is safe.

Tenzor07

eamonnq wrote: »

Why should they charge people for using the car park ? Would they then not be more inclined to park elsewhere any way? Or should everybody be charged for parking in the park or how would you manage this ?

Well, something has to be done about the safety issues being generated by the level of car parking along Chesterfield avenue, North road and Wellington road, so a facility for Zoo patrons to securely park would at least be a start in addressing this issue.

trellheim

As a local cyclist and pedestrian and jogger in the park, this was inevitable. Those cycle lanes are really only for the rentabikes - slow , sightseeing type cycling. I am absolutely appalled by the high speed nature of many cyclists on those lanes given the complete lack of segregation, and very large amounts of children in the area.

Cyclist in many cases not adjusting their progress to match the lane.

magicbastarder

eamonnq wrote: »

Why should they charge people for using the car park ? Would they then not be more inclined to park elsewhere any way? Or should everybody be charged for parking in the park or how would you manage this ?

if you charged say €3 for the car park but then offered a €4 discount on entry to the zoo on presentation of your parking ticket, maybe?

beauf

To increase parking means removing park area. So its a catch 22. The problem with the park is that is used for both recreational, and commuting. So there's a conflict right there.

Some cyclists go too fast on what is in reality a mixed use path. I think if you want to go fast stay on the road. There should be a speed limit on the cycle path. I also think it should be moved to the inner path, but the surface improved. Perhaps make it two way on one side only. Better sign-age along it.

I use the cycle paths in the park a fair bit for commuting and out with the family. So I have no problem slowing down and going around walkers on the path, or moving to the road when needs be. You just have to considerate of other people.

That said all it takes is for someone to step last minute into your path at slow speed and you can take a bad tumble.

We've lots of old threads, posts on the cycle lane in the park. All these issues are well known. Considering the volume of pedestrians and cyclists, most people are pretty reasonable otherwise there would be more accidents.

beauf

magicbastarder wrote: »

if you charged say €3 for the car park but then offered a €4 discount on entry to the zoo on presentation of your parking ticket, maybe?

They used to block parking on the main road every now and then to stop people parking there all day and walking into town, luas etc.

eamonnq

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Well, something has to be done about the safety issues being generated by the level of car parking along Chesterfield avenue, North road and Wellington road, so a facility for Zoo patrons to securely park would at least be a start in addressing this issue.

magicbastarder wrote: »

if you charged say €3 for the car park but then offered a €4 discount on entry to the zoo on presentation of your parking ticket, maybe?

But people not attending the Zoo still need to park somewhere too ?

I use one of the annual passes for the zoo, head in early on a weekend morning, park in the 'zoo' car park as there is plenty of space but when I come out a few hours later, the car park is full and the cars are parked anywhere they can. The car park size could surely be increased but this does take from the park area, but as the cars are parking on the grass anyway it may as well be carpark, not sure it would be worth it for when the place is quiet though.

beauf

I reckon the the OPW would like to close the park to cars and stop through traffic.

I think though its a problem not going away. Its just needs a better way of managing it. The numbers of cyclists are increasing, the OPW would probably like to encourage that.

Perhaps some marking to distinguish a Cycle Superhighway (for commuting) vs a leisure mixed use path.

http://www.eastlondonlines.co.uk/2012/11/tfl-cancels-cycle-superhighway-extension-to-lewisham-due-to-unknown-constraints/
https://www.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.streetsblog.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F03%2Fcyclingsuperh1.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.streetsblog.org%2F2012%2F03%2F29%2Flondon-mayoral-candidates-vie-to-be-the-most-bike-friendly%2F&docid=jA7JSDMD_TqKfM&tbnid=y86P3hEUTUYZQM%3A&w=1600&h=1200&safe=off&bih=899&biw=1280&ved=0ahUKEwiow_u0373MAhXDJB4KHVivBl8QMwhPKCkwKQ&iact=mrc&uact=8

https://www.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bikers-delight.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F07%2FIMG_0708.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bikers-delight.com%2Fcycle-super-highway%2F2107-cycle-super-highways%2F&docid=5qvCSpEiKgqeyM&tbnid=FD937H3Vwv_d-M%3A&w=2000&h=1500&safe=off&bih=899&biw=1280&ved=0ahUKEwiow_u0373MAhXDJB4KHVivBl8QMwhoKEIwQg&iact=mrc&uact=8#h=1500&imgdii=FD937H3Vwv_d-M%3A%3BFD937H3Vwv_d-M%3A%3BrTxInKYmF7JVNM%3A&w=2000

Tenzor07

beauf wrote: »

I reckon the the OPW would like to close the park to cars and stop through traffic.
I think though its a problem not going away. Its just needs a better way of managing it. The numbers of cyclists are increasing, the OPW would probably like to encourage that.

I think they'd like to discourage the park from being used as a major car commuting route, for the safety of the wild deer in the park and also to more easily accommodate the numbers of mini-marathon/jogging events that occur during the year...

I would certainly not go so far as to say the OPW would like to encourage cycling in the park!
Maybe on a purely leisure/tourism basis only...

Birdie Num Num

trellheim wrote: »

As a local cyclist and pedestrian and jogger in the park, this was inevitable. Those cycle lanes are really only for the rentabikes - slow , sightseeing type cycling. I am absolutely appalled by the high speed nature of many cyclists on those lanes given the complete lack of segregation, and very large amounts of children in the area.

Cyclist in many cases not adjusting their progress to match the lane.

Not a cyclist but I use the park as both a pedestrian, runner/walker and driver. Pedestrians should always get consideration and priority within a public park.

I don't believe swapping over the outer and inner lanes would be a good idea either as the inner lanes are not as well lit, are often flooded or iced over. It would be much more dangerous for cyclists. I always prefer to run on the grass were possible but moving out to the outer cycle lane to run is something I have had to do when the inner pedestrian lane is flooded or icy. I've had some issues with some cyclists even though I would step off onto to the grass. I notice more and more cyclists are also going off road and using the trails too.

As I always say the park is big enough for us all to use, it just takes common sense all round.

I am not suggesting any of the above is the reason for this accident and I hope both make a full recovery.

mr spuckler

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I think they'd like to discourage the park from being used as a major car commuting route, for the safety of the wild deer in the park and also to more easily accommodate the numbers of mini-marathon/jogging events that occur during the year...

I would certainly not go so far as to say the OPW would like to encourage cycling in the park!
Maybe on a purely leisure/tourism basis only...

not sure i can agree with you there!

http://www.cyclingireland.ie/cycling-news-item/orwell-wheelers-to-host-national-road-championships/1967

Nationals to Start and Finish in Phoenix Park 23-26 June

beauf

I think the suggestion is more could be done to facilitate cycling commuters in the park. The OPW might be torn in seeing all commuting through the park as bad vs leisure cycling.

brocbrocach

trellheim wrote: »

As a local cyclist and pedestrian and jogger in the park, this was inevitable. Those cycle lanes are really only for the rentabikes - slow , sightseeing type cycling. I am absolutely appalled by the high speed nature of many cyclists on those lanes given the complete lack of segregation, and very large amounts of children in the area.

Cyclist in many cases not adjusting their progress to match the lane.

With respect, you seem to be blaming the cyclist for cycling on a cycle lane.
The lane is very straight and well surfaced. Very little of it is anywhere near the Zoo. Much like the busy, unsegregated(?), road ten feet away pedestrians should take responsibility for not walking on it.
Generally people don't care to make their way to the pedestrian lane further out. Very little of the problem is with people crossing the cycle lane to get to the walking lane, which is easy to do as the lane is one way and sight lines are good. Joggers and walkers are often happy enough to ignore the very clear signage, often walking with their backs to oncoming traffic and with no lights. That is the major problem with the cycle lane.

Anyway it's an old story, often highlighted here as has been said elsewhere. Unfortunately I get angry reading comments like this though, as there but for the grace of God, etc.

Tombo2001

trellheim wrote: »

As a local cyclist and pedestrian and jogger in the park, this was inevitable. Those cycle lanes are really only for the rentabikes - slow , sightseeing type cycling. I am absolutely appalled by the high speed nature of many cyclists on those lanes given the complete lack of segregation, and very large amounts of children in the area.

Cyclist in many cases not adjusting their progress to match the lane.

I get where you are coming from; but on the face of it, a cyclist is completely within their rights to cycle as fast as they want on a cycle lane. There is no rule to say they shouldn't; and pedestrians shouldn't be there.

A cycle lane is for bikes full stop - you may say its only for rentabikes, but the fact is that its for all bikes.

People give out an awful lot about cyclists abusing the rules of the road.

In the phoenix park. pedestrians walk along the cycle path all the time regardless of the pictures of bicycles on the path - and its still the cyclists fault (not in this case, but in general) for going too fast?

If a pedestrian walked along the middle of the main road, would it be the car drivers fault for going too fast? Cyclists cant always to be blame for everything.....

What you are saying is that cyclists should use common sense to avoid the danger that the poor design creates. And you are right. But ultimately, the problem is (I) the poor design and (II) the fact that pedestrians continually use a cycle path.

ThisRegard

niceonetom wrote: »

It doesn't matter which one is which or what signs are erected - walkers will use both.

Plus pedestrians, dogs and kids will still want to cross it. I don't think switching the lanes is the panacea.

Jawgap

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I get where you are coming from; but on the face of it, a cyclist is completely within their rights to cycle as fast as they want on a cycle lane. There is no rule to say they shouldn't; and pedestrians shouldn't be there.

A cycle lane is for bikes full stop - you may say its only for rentabikes, but the fact is that its for all bikes.

People give out an awful lot about cyclists abusing the rules of the road.

In the phoenix park. pedestrians walk along the cycle path all the time regardless of the pictures of bicycles on the path - and its still the cyclists fault (not in this case, but in general) for going to fast?

If a pedestrian walked along the middle of the main road, would it be the car drivers fault for going to fast? Cyclists cant always to be blame for everything.....

What you are saying is that cyclists should use common sense to avoid the danger that the poor design creates. And you are right. But ultimately, the problem is (I) the poor design and (II) the fact that pedestrians continually use a cycle path.

It's a park not a velodrome - plenty of other roads etc available for a bit of 'hammer time' - and yes, legally, you may be right but common sense would dictate adjusting your 'cycling behavour' to match the environment, and not expecting the environment to adjust to your expectations.

BTW - I hope everyone invovled makes a full and speedy recovery.

Birdie Num Num

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I completely get where you are coming from; but on the face of it, a cyclist is completely within their rights to cycle as fast as they want on a cycle lane. There is no rule to say they shouldn't; and pedestrians shouldn't be there.

A cycle lane is for bikes full stop - you may say its only for rentabikes, but the fact is that its for all bikes.

People give out an awful lot about cyclists abusing the rules of the road.

In the phoenix park. pedestrians walk along the cycle path all the time regardless of the pictures of bicycles on the path - and its still the cyclists fault (not in this case, but in general) for going to fast?

If a pedestrian walked along the middle of the main road, would it be the car drivers fault for going to fast? Cyclists cant always to be blame for everything.....

Tombo2001, that works both ways. Cyclists also cycle on the inner (pedestrian) lane as is evident in the photo on the journal.ie article in the link in the first post. The cycle lane was always a pedestrian lane up until recent years when it was made into a cycle lane and got the painted cycle symbol. Common sense has to prevail here, you are always going to get pedestrians on this lane. It is not always possible to restrict walking or jogging on the inner path depending on conditions.

Tombo2001

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

Tombo2001, that works both ways. Cyclists also cycle on the inner (pedestrian) lane as is evident in the photo on the journal.ie article in the link in the first post. The cycle lane was always a pedestrian lane up until recent years when it was made into a cycle lane and got the painted cycle symbol. Common sense has to prevail here, you are always going to get pedestrians on this lane. It is not always possible to restrict walking or jogging on the inner path depending on conditions.

I've never seen a cyclist, apart from young kids, on the inner lane, and I use the park very frequently for running, cycling etc...at day time and night time. I'm sure it has happened; but it is absolutely not frequent.

I agree with you that the inner lane on Chesterfield is v poor for walking/ running at night time - its poorly lit, far from the road, prone to flooding.

Tombo2001

Jawgap wrote: »

It's a park not a velodrome - plenty of other roads etc available for a bit of 'hammer time' - and yes, legally, you may be right but common sense would dictate adjusting your 'cycling behavour' to match the environment, and not expecting the environment to adjust to your expectations.

BTW - I hope everyone invovled makes a full and speedy recovery.

You are right of course.

In the same way that Pedestrians should use common sense and not walk along a lane that is designated solely for cyclists....

So why single out the cyclists as the problem

jon1981

The " kill all cyclists" brigade are out in force on the Indo comments section, best not to read if you want to keep your blood pressure down.

beauf

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I get where you are coming from; but on the face of it, a cyclist is completely within their rights to cycle as fast as they want on a cycle lane...

Thats a terrible mindset.

"Cyclist driving a pedal cycle without reasonable consideration"

beauf

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/video?vid=1.1768030

Birdie Num Num

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I've never seen a cyclist, apart from young kids, on the inner lane, and I use the park very frequently for running, cycling etc...at day time and night time. I'm sure it has happened; but it is absolutely not frequent.

I agree with you that the inner lane on Chesterfield is v poor for walking/ running at night time - its poorly lit, far from the road, prone to flooding.

I'd hate to see any radical changes to the park including lighting. It is a public park and a fantastic amenity. It just needs to be treated with respect and those using it need to be treated with respect by other users.

beauf

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I've never seen a cyclist, apart from young kids, on the inner lane, and I use the park very frequently for running, cycling etc...at day time and night time. I'm sure it has happened; but it is absolutely not frequent.

I agree with you that the inner lane on Chesterfield is v poor for walking/ running at night time - its poorly lit, far from the road, prone to flooding.

The inner lane needs to be upgraded for cycling only.

Fast cyclist should be encouraged to moved to the road.

beauf

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

... It just needs to be treated with respect and those using it need to be treated with respect by other users.

Eaxctly.

Seve OB

Living in Castleknock since 2005 and can tell you that the current cycle lane has always been a cycle lane in that time. If there was a swap over with pedestrians, it happened before then.

jon1981

There needs to be more 'no pedestrian/walking/running " signs along the cycle lane, the cycle lane in parts can be over 1km long and as far as I have noticed there is only a sign at the beginning and ends of each section, pointless for pedestrians that park along the middle of such section and decide to go for a walk.

Seve OB

Picture it, busy Sunday, park your car on Chesterfield, halfway up to the Aras, get the buggy out, load up the baby and the kids and try to walk over to the path.

Not possible, you can't get there.


Ooops, who designed that! :rolleyes: