Season 6 Episode 2 "Home" thread "Book readers"

Hans Bricks

I thought that was a cracking episode. Got JS resurrection out of the way early.

I wonder what Hodor's impact on the rest of the season will be ? Perhaps he knew something the Starks didn't want him telling anyone else ?

Interesting that the Umbars and Manderleys were mentioned by Ramsey. I can see a well overdue Northern revenge in the form of a Battle of Stirlingesque U turn from them during the battle between the Bolton 'loyalists' and the Wildings.

Mr. Incognito

Nody wrote: »

Well I could see it go slightly different but on a similar premise; here's the exact oath taken:
Bolded the important part; he was there until he died so he's actually free from the oath now to take the wildlings south to retake Winterfell (as per the book). Then rouse the north to come help defend the wall while they elect someone else as the lord commander basically. That way he'll not be an oath breaker and I could see in the final episode how he either becomes lord of Winterfell (under his right name) or goes back to the wall to swear the oath again.

Well considering the next episode is called oathbreaker

Roose is a very big loss to the show. Very cheap death and confusing how the Karstarks would be so accepting of Kinslaying over something as simple as not being allowed fúck up the wall. I don't mind Ramsey killing Roose per se but that's 2 weeks in a row that characters who are notorious for their perception and safe thinking have been stabbed cheaply by letting their guard down in completely out of character situations.

Daith

They're rattling through everything now.

Still I loved this episode. The Walda scenes were hard to watch.
Loved Lyanna coming through on her horse. Surprised Bran didn't say "she looks like Arya".
Actually intrigued about the Iron Islands now.

Aww that Tyrion speech about wanting a dragon.

Niska

Enjoyed it more than the first episode but still feels rushed.
They're no longer organically developing plot and character, the interaction by the characters is forced to move the plot forward, and this makes some scenes feel a bit stilted and forced.
Davos approaching Mel for 'Raise Dead' been the most obvious example - there's no reason for Davos to believe there is a way to bring Jon back. It would have been easy for them to write in - 'Gendry told me about Beric and Thoros...' (Or similar) and lead into the request from there.

As for Balon's death - that happens 'off screen ' in the books - and is officially an accident, though the vision by the Ghost of High Hearth more or less states taht Euon (the downe crow) hired a faceless man o kill him:

The old gods stir and will not let me sleep. I dreamt I saw a shadow with a burning heart butchering a golden stag, aye. I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings. I dreamt of a roaring river and a woman that was a fish. Dead she drifted, with red tears on her cheeks, but when her eyes did open, oh, I woke from terror. All this I dreamt, and more

Savage Tyrant

Nody wrote: »

Well I could see it go slightly different but on a similar premise; here's the exact oath taken:
Bolded the important part; he was there until he died so he's actually free from the oath now to take the wildlings south to retake Winterfell (as per the book). Then rouse the north to come help defend the wall while they elect someone else as the lord commander basically. That way he'll not be an oath breaker and I could see in the final episode how he either becomes lord of Winterfell (under his right name) .

This is exactly how I assumed it would go. "and now his watch has ended"

In addition, I think we shall get a very short lived 999th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch before a big name gets elected as the 1000th.... Stannis Baratheon?

Owryan

Liam O wrote: »

Roose is a very big loss to the show. Very cheap death and confusing how the Karstarks would be so accepting of Kinslaying over something as simple as not being allowed fúck up the wall. I don't mind Ramsey killing Roose per se but that's 2 weeks in a row that characters who are notorious for their perception and safe thinking have been stabbed cheaply by letting their guard down in completely out of character situations.

To me it looked like the Karstark fella had aligned himself with Ramsay before the deed. He didnt seem at all surprised and was quick to point out to the maester who the new lord was.

"Jon Snow is dead...dead dead, and he's not coming back" -

Game of Thrones' writers and cast, you are a bunch of filthy liars!

Seriously though, we might have all seen it coming since we finished reading the prologue of ADWD, but it was nice to see it official after almost 5 years of speculation.

Owryan

Owryan wrote: »

To me it looked like the Karstark fella had aligned himself with Ramsay before the deed. He didnt seem at all surprised and was quick to point out to the maester who the new lord was.

Ah yeah I think that much was obvious, doesn't make much sense unless they have ulterior motives with regards taking down the Boltons though. Roose is by far the better and more stable option for further establishing power in the north.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Owryan wrote: »

To me it looked like the Karstark fella had aligned himself with Ramsay before the deed. He didnt seem at all surprised and was quick to point out to ther maester who the new lord was.

Yeah that makes sense, Ramsay's not one of the world's greatest strategists, but even for him that would have been far too risky a move.

Still, he seems to be heading to a plot that echoes Theon's time at Winterfell, between Roose's 'if you act like a mad dog that's how people will treat you' and the High Sparrow's whole bit about the nameless oppressed hordes rising up it seemed to me to be foreshadowing in that direction. I really hope it does go that way because a) JFC would it be satisfying to see that character torn to shreds physically and emotionally and b) I really think Ewan Rheon is one of the strongest actors in the show right now and I'd like to see him portray that

Rezident

Great episode, very good all round. Even Arya's bit wasn't as depressing as usual.

Are they going to skip arya's warging now or what?
I could have sworn they were gonna do that with Jon

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

The whole Jon scene was pretty trolly really. The world and his mother knew how it was going to end, and it was dragged out to feck. They knew there were theories about Jon warging into Ghost, throw in a few significant looking shots of Ghost. So much internal repetition of gesture and words in the ritual too.

I actually quite liked it, it's a big important moment for the story and when things can feel so rushed it's nice to slow down for those ones. And it was gorgeous looking, too. Seems to be a lot of people who hated it though

Owryan

Alisa Immense Bat wrote: »

Yeah that makes sense, Ramsay's not one of the world's greatest strategists, but even for him that would have been far too risky a move.

Still, he seems to be heading to a plot that echoes Theon's time at Winterfell, between Roose's 'if you act like a mad dog that's how people will treat you' and the High Sparrow's whole bit about the nameless oppressed hordes rising up it seemed to me to be foreshadowing in that direction. I really hope it does go that way because a) JFC would it be satisfying to see that character torn to shreds physically and emotionally and b) I really think Ewan Rheon is one of the strongest actors in the show right now and I'd like to see him portray that

The book reader in me is now wondering if the manderleys and umbers are using the karstarks to get Roose Bolton out of the way. Rickon was sent by bran to the umbars if I remember correctly.

Could be the TV's take on the manderley plot from the books

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Owryan wrote: »

The book reader in me is now wondering if the manderleys and umbers are using the karstarks to get Roose Bolton out of the way. Rickon was sent by bran to the umbars if I remember correctly.

Could be the TV's take on the manderley plot from the books

I'm never really sure how much faith to have in the show. Book-reader me would tend to think the same as you 'ah, this seemingly illogical action probably has a concealed motive which will transform the situation when revealed'. But show-watcher me suspects the motivation was just 'yolo' basically. They did make sure to remind people of the Karstarks' grudge against the Starks dating back to season three right beforehand. I dunno, I hope you're right!


Ages since I read the books but there's some serious uneasiness among the Northern houses over the Bolton's being in charge, isn't there?

intheclouds

How come Davos isn't upset about Shireens death?

Oh and I didn't like the children of the forest revamp.

I also liked Euron having his "sea legs" on the bridge but Balon didn't.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

intheclouds wrote: »

How come Davos isn't upset about Shireens death?

Oh and I didn't like the children of the forest revamp.

I also liked Euron having his "sea legs" on the bridge but Balon didn't.

Yeah that was a great touch, and then when he takes his hands off the ropes and Euron's just like :rolleyes:. For all the tiny bit of screen time he got Balon was a fairly strong contender for least sympathetic character really

xper

intheclouds wrote: »

How come Davos isn't upset about Shireens death?

How much does he know at this point? Her nibs hasn't been exactly talkative since she rode back through the gates of Castle Black, though you'd think that both Jon and Davos would have followed up with her at some point before the stabby stabby stuff happened.


Just watched episode two on the first Sky Atlantic showing. They didn't quite sync Jon's eyes opening with the moment Leicester City won the Premier League ... but it was close!

Mr.Prodston

Manderley's been mentioned. Anyone? Anyone? :pac:

I didn't see the Roose dispatch coming at all. Although very obvious at the same time.

I may have my problems with this show but even before the Jon confirmation I thought it was a really good episode.

Great to see Bran too and Edd looking like such a bad ass.

I did think for a second that a Quentin type situation was going to go down.

Glad I managed to avoid the internet all day anyway that's for sure.

Liam O

Liam O wrote: »

Roose is a very big loss to the show. Very cheap death and confusing how the Karstarks would be so accepting of Kinslaying over something as simple as not being allowed fúck up the wall. I don't mind Ramsey killing Roose per se but that's 2 weeks in a row that characters who are notorious for their perception and safe thinking have been stabbed cheaply by letting their guard down in completely out of character situations.

Owryan wrote: »

To me it looked like the Karstark fella had aligned himself with Ramsay before the deed. He didnt seem at all surprised and was quick to point out to the maester who the new lord was.

As disappointed as I was to see Roose go by the hand of someone who wasn't a Stark, I had no problem with 'buying' that whole scene or Ramsay's motivations, and didn't find it cheap. Cheap, as an example of my standard, was Areo Hotah getting stabbed in the back by one of the Power Puff Girls last week. Plus, I don't think Ramsay murdered Roose over "something as simple as not being allowed fúck up the wall". The show has foreshadowed the threat to Ramsay were Fat Walda to give Roose a son born pure between the Boltons and Freys. Roose even taunted Ramsay about this possibility. Had the maester not delivered news about the birth of a son in that scene, Roose would not have gotten murdered just then. Disagreeing with Ramsay about the Wall and then some other things might have made it happen eventually, but the birth of a son was what made Ramsay make that play when he did.

As for Roose being known for being perceptive and safe and the show betraying this, there is no way even he could have known that Ramsay would do such a thing IMO. He even went as far as taunting Ramsay about the possibility of having another son. If he had have thought Ramsay would outright murder him mid-embrace, there's no way he would have made those jibes. Never mind that, there's no way Ramsay would have still been alive. Upon until that point, Roose was aware of Ramsay's "games", but he believed that Ramsay was all for the Bolton cause. "Yes my son is a mad bastard (literally) - but he's my mad bastard" sort of thing. Look at Ramsay's reaction/charade when he was made a Bolton officially in an episode from last season. He acted like it was his life's dream made complete. He played the act so well. Even right to the end, his final words to his father who said to him "You will always be my first-born". Ramsay: "Thank you for saying that, it means a great deal to me." -STAB! Roose thought that Ramsay could be tamed and made to further the cause of House Bolton, but it turns out that Ramsay only wants to further the cause of Ramsay and will act as swiftly as is necessary in order to accomplish it, as demonstrated in this episode.

Ramsay is unhinged, with not one redeeming bone in his body nor any desire on his part to have one. Of course the show-runners walk a fine line here between 'pure psychopath' and 'pantomime villain' but for me, so far anyway, they are achieving the former. That's not to say that there is no way they could possibly jump the shark with the character in my view, just that it hasn't happened yet for me.

We saw Roose Bolton cross his King, Robb Stark, in a move that led to the butchering of Robb, his wolf, his mother, wife, unborn child and friends and bannermen. Roose Bolton is despicable. Yet, it was interesting to see the man talk some sense in last night's episode when he warned Ramsay about acting like an all-out mad dog all of the time. An interesting juxtaposition of values amongst cold-blooded murderers. Even someone as ruthless as Roose can see a time and a place, which battles to fight and when to fight them, a strategy. He can see the long game. As ruthless and hateful as his part in the Red Wedding was, at least the man had a plan and his reasons behind his actions.

Ramsay is different altogether though. He just wants to sit on top of the world now and doesn't care what alliances he makes or breaks in the meantime. Repercussions? Bring them on! Pure killing and fear is the way he is going to do it and even before last night's episode, his reputation was well known to those who knew his name. I imagine that he had made the young Karstark aware of the situation that could arise should a son be born to Roose. It could have happened along the lines of "Hey Karstark, come ere, should my father be delivered a son, they will all perish. You can either go with it, or I can have you outside on a flaying board in two minutes flat. Yes your house will declare war on me, but you will have died screaming by the time they do, and they will soon die screaming too."

Or it could have gone another way; What Liamo speaks of in the quoted paragraph refers to honour and acknowledgement of ideals and traditions. From my reading of the show, Westeros is in the middle of a great change and the actions of the younger generation are only part of that change. Most normal people would think 'Of course the Wall isn't defended from the South, why the hell would they need to do that?' - The Wall protects the South and is a place to send criminals and no-hopers to forget about them. So if honour wasn't enough to keep a house from attacking the Wall, then at least common sense should do the trick. However, all the heads of the great houses are getting murdered and the evidence so far for me is that the younger generation coming up to take their place aren't just as honourable or kindly to tradition in their quests towards fulfilling their selfish goals.

I even use the Lannisters as an example here. Tywin was not a nice man, but was cunning, clever and wholly deserving of his reputation as an all-time great war strategist. He himself even honoured old ways and traditions, and because of this he kept alive and in power until...his son shot him with a crossbow as he sat in the sanctity of his bathroom. Tyrion murdered his father over a selfish, personal reason, similar to Ramsay.

We know how little Cersei and Jamie care of honour and traditions too, given their incest and previous actions to cover it up (attempting to murder Bran, son of the new Hand of the King while they were guests at his home) never mind anything else we've seen them do separately onscreen.

Outside the Lannisters, Theon is another example. He engineered a move to wipe out the name of the house that raised him as one of their own, called him brother, in a short-planned move just to impress his stone-faced father Balon. Yes, Theon dreamed of returning home to the Iron Isles and being accepted with open arms and a line to the Seastone Chair, but life had moved on there as if Theon had died rather than just become a ward of the Starks in Winterfell. After seeing this reality, it is understandable that Theon would want to impress the family and remind them that he was still a Greyjoy, but his move on Winterfell was completely selfish and not serving to any long-term strategy but that of his own fulfillment.

I know that betrayal and disrespect of traditions existed long before Ramsay and the younger generation came along. Roose Bolton crossed his King at the Red Wedding for example, but this in itself was a survival tactic. The death of Ned Stark was a game-changer. Roose could see that Robb was not Eddard and that Robb's (and his own) cause and houses would eventually be smothered and wiped out by the Lannisters.

Ramsay murdered his father and newborn brother because he felt threatened. There was no long-term plan beyond that. There are selfish goals at play with many of the younger players in Westeros, and Ramsay is the sum of them all and then some more. I believe he will go to The Wall, or at least send some cavalry there because he feels threatened by Jon Snow. It clearly doesn't matter to him if the other houses revolt or not. And by current evidence, notably in the houses where the elder has been killed off and there is a younger head in place now, they won't really bat an eyelid because they'll have their eyes on their own goals and/or not want to be killed by the rising Bolton mad dog. Likewise, be it because of fear or because he is also not as attached to honour and tradition when it comes to furthering his own goals - The younger Karstark sensed the change, saw the momentum of the Ramsay train and chose to get on board.

So my point is that the younger generation in Westeros appear to be a bit more removed from old ideals and traditions in the face of a rapidly changing world around them. Is this a bit reflective of the real-world we live in today? That's another TLDR for a different forum maybe, but something 'real' did actually spring to mind while I watched Ramsay stab Roose and demonstrate that he is a different breed altogether. I remembered reading a quote from a convicted Irish gangster upon his imprisonment, one of the Dunne brothers who are reported to have started organised crime in Ireland back in the 80s. "If you think we were bad, wait 'til you see what's coming after us." In the many years since right up to recent weeks, we can unfortunately see what came after them. I think this is an example of how despite being a show featuring dragons, magic and resurrection, there are strong themes that can be applied to the real world.

That's my long reasoning for why the Ramsay/Roose scene is fine with me. Beyond the loss of Michael McElhatton to the show, I'm fine with it from a story and execution point of view. I totally agree about Areo Hotah from last week's episode though, complete betrayal of the character. However, the show's depiction of Dorne has been more or less a betrayal since the outset (post-Oberyn) so at least it is consistent there :pac:

intheclouds

xper wrote: »

How much does he know at this point? Her nibs hasn't been exactly talkative since she rode back through the gates of Castle Black, though you'd think that both Jon and Davos would have followed up with her at some point before the stabby stabby stuff happened.

True. Perhaps he doesn't know.

Do they know the Bolton army defeated Stannis?

I'm going to miss Roose Boltons honeyed tones, such a great voice.

Thought Max von Sydow looked amazing, all creases.

Ave Sodalis

Is anyone else thinking that Ramsey stabbing Roose the way he did was his own (twisted) mark of respect? We all know Ramsey likes his drawn out tortures and gruesome deaths, and someone as fasinated by it as he would know where to stab to keep them alive but dying painfully. However, Roose's death was quick and relatively painless. Really, with a man like Ramsey, stabbing in the chest is the best you could hope for.

wp_rathead

I've a feeling that Bolton Maester is gonna be in for a flaying

xper

stankratz wrote: »

I genuinely thought for a moment that Tyrion was going to get Quentyned in that dungeon and found it tense viewing.

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

I did think for a second that a Quentin type situation was going to go down.

The point-of-view shot looking directly down the dragons's throat at the flame within is pretty much lifted directly from the book as the last thing Quentin sees before being roasted. Deliberate troll to book readers there.

They missed the opportunity to have Tyrion speak his tourist Valyrian to the dragons, say something inappropriate and have Varys shout out a correction just in time.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

sup_dude wrote: »

Is anyone else thinking that Ramsey stabbing Roose the way he did was his own (twisted) mark of respect? We all know Ramsey likes his drawn out tortures and gruesome deaths, and someone as fasinated by it as he would know where to stab to keep them alive but dying painfully. However, Roose's death was quick and relatively painless. Really, with a man like Ramsey, stabbing in the chest is the best you could hope for.

Yeah but the 'he was poisoned by his enemies' lie would be harder to keep going if people in the castle knew that was going on.

I think Ramsay genuinely did crave Roose's approval and look up to him, he was the only person whose opinion he gave a single shít about. Roose made the mistake of thinking that meant Ramsay was under his control though. Massive mistake on Ramsay's part though, Roose was constantly stopping him from making, or chastising him for making stupid mistakes, he's signed his own death warrant purely in that regard not to mind the Kinslaying taboo

Turtyturd

Enjoyed that episode. Everybody knew the end was coming but it was great when it did. Also a nice touch to have Ghost recognise he had returned.

Loved Edd and the Wildlings return to Castle Black, although I wanted to see Thorne and Olly on the receiving end of some sweet justice.

Good to see them give some context/explanation to the High Sparrow and how he has the power he does. I don't think the show has done a good job explaining that.

Rufus Hound throwing Balon off the Bridge could have been done much earlier.

Bran was grand, liked the updated CotF, and the flashback. Will Hodor be the one the reveal Jon's parentage? Has the Internet been inundated with 'Hodor?...What you talking about Willis?' memes?

Tyrion filling in for Quentin didn't even cross my mind, character is bulletproof. I did think he was sending Missendi to deal with the dragons though.

Ramsey is the one thing that irks me about the Northern part of the show. His character normally seems like something from a GOT sketch show. The actor seemed to be toning it down this week though so hopefully that continues. Roose's death, and Doran/Aereo last week, while shocking just don't seem to have the same impact or build as the major deaths in the first 4 seasons.

SB_Part2

I loved the episode overall. Everyone know Jon was coming back. Can't wait for next weeks episode.

The only thing I didn't like was the portrayal of the Three-Eyed-Crow/Raven in the tree.

Most of him has gone into the tree ... He has lived beyond his mortal span, and yet he lingers. For us, for you, for the realms of men. Only a little strength remains in his flesh. He has a thousand eyes and one, but there is much to watch. One day you will know.

I expected him to be intwined in the tree similar to the way Bootstrap Bill was intwined to the ship in Pirates of the Caribbean. Not just looking like he was stuck in the tree.

CMOTDibbler

Turtyturd wrote: »

Enjoyed that episode. Everybody knew the end was coming but it was great when it did. Also a nice touch to have Ghost recognise he had returned.

I saw that as Jon leaving Ghost and going back to his body.

The second time of watching, Melisandre repeated the same phrase four times followed by 'please'. I took that as the incantaion to call the spirit back into the body. But Jon had warged into Ghost who was having a nap at the time (nice touch) and when he woke up, he was able to warg back becaus Melisandre had done everything right except the most important bit.

I think this also means that Jon will be much more 'complete' than other resurrections as his spirit is intact rather than having 'drifted' off and perhaps diminshed over time.

intheclouds

Alisa Immense Bat wrote: »

I think Ramsay genuinely did crave Roose's approval and look up to him, he was the only person whose opinion he gave a single shít about.

I dont know about this. I think that Ramsay needed Roose's approval so he played up to that until he got it, and more importantly, til he got official recognition i.e., was legitimised.

But once Roose gave him that legitimacy it was only a matter of time for Roose. At any point Roose could have made another heir and threatened Ramsays position further. At any point Roose could have changed his mind and disowned Ramsay. The only way Ramsay could be safe was for Roose to be out of the way and for Ramsay to be Lord Bolton.

Roose probably didnt help the situation by being so dismissive of Ramsay and taunting him about the new trueborn heir on the way etc.. but fundamentally, Ramsay was never going to be safe in his position until he got rid of Roose.

ArmaniJeanss

I haven't watched since around mid series 4, just read the threads so apologies if question is silly.

Are there not lots of Frey family members and soldiers amongst the Bolton army, such that killing Walda would lead to a split in the alliance within minutes? Ramsey is still mad enough to attempt it obviously, but repercussions would be instant. Or do the producers just not give a fcuk about consistency in the story?