Why do I bother paying my DART fare?

Hollister11

Since I started college almost 2 years Go I have paid more than 1K on dart fare.

I'm currently on the DART now, and as I was tagging on, two scrotes in front of me, walked through the open barriers, and on to the train for free.

I have seen an inspector once in that time, so I would still be €900 better off, even after the fine.

Having the barriers open and the station unmanned is a joke, especially when you see people getting free transport.

Captain Chaos

I see it every day myself, the amount of people that don't pay and the amount of times stations are unmanned is just silly. Irsh Rail think they are saving money not have to pay staff but at the same time no one is enforcing revenue protection like Transdev.

If they got serious about inspecting tickets on the DART service alone Irish would clean up in fines, especially at off peak times.

howiya

Hollister11 wrote: »

Since I started college almost 2 years Go I have paid more than 1K on dart fare.

I'm currently on the DART now, and as I was tagging on, two scrotes in front of me, walked through the open barriers, and on to the train for free.

I have seen an inspector once in that time, so I would still be €900 better off, even after the fine.

Having the barriers open and the station unmanned is a joke, especially when you see people getting free transport.

But then you'd be just another scrote...

Captain Chaos

howiya wrote: »

But then you'd be just another scrote...

A €900 better off scrote but you can see where he is coming from.

howiya

Captain Chaos wrote: »

I see it every day myself, the amount of people that don't pay and the amount of times stations are unmanned is just silly. Irsh Rail think they are saving money not have to pay staff but at the same time no one is enforcing revenue protection like Transdev.

If they got serious about inspecting tickets on the DART service alone Irish would clean up in fines, especially at off peak times.

Irish Rail do have a revenue protection unit. Begs the question, what are these people doing to earn their wage. Probably not a lot...

Rarely see anyone checking tickets on DB either although you do have to pass the driver to get on the bus so not the same as Luas or train...

Do Transdev release any stats of how many people they catch? They do look to be the most visible although a lot of the time the officers are standing around having a chat.

howiya

Captain Chaos wrote: »

A €900 better off scrote but you can see where he is coming from.

I don't really to be honest. I can see his frustration but at the same time I wouldn't stop paying my fare. In the same way I wouldn't pick something off the shelf in a shop and not pay for it. Lots of people shoplift, doesn't make it more acceptable for everyone else to follow their lead just because they didn't get caught.

devnull

The fact is even if the gates were closed the station staff don't do anything about evading.

At Clongriffin gates used to be open all morning even when station staff were present, less hassle that way apparently, fare evasion is rampant especially between non city centre stations.

Getting away with it at Connolly for example is extremely unlikely because of a highly visible RPI and staff, but places like Grand Canal Dock, Portmarnock, Clongriffin, Kilbarack etc are rampant.

Captain Chaos

howiya wrote: »

I don't really to be honest. I can see his frustration but at the same time I wouldn't stop paying my fare. In the same way I wouldn't pick something off the shelf in a shop and not pay for it. Lots of people shoplift, doesn't make it more acceptable for everyone else to follow their lead just because they didn't get caught.

Not saying it''s acceptable but there are so many doing it daily and it's very very easy to get away with it if you were so inclined.

It would also sort out alot of the antisocial behaviour at the same time if it was enforced.

During the day on the Luas and you see all the revenue protection up ahead at the next station, all the scrotes start to panic and get off the tram even if tickets are not being checked. They work better than security at clearing a tram up.

Hollister11

devnull wrote: »

The fact is even if the gates were closed the station staff don't do anything about evading.

At Clongriffin gates used to be open all morning even when station staff were present, less hassle that way apparently, fare evasion is rampant especially between non city centre stations.

Getting away with it at Connolly for example is extremely unlikely because of a highly visible RPI and staff, but places like Grand Canal Dock, Portmarnock, Clongriffin, Kilbarack etc are rampant.

Exactly where i get on everyday

Liam O

The people who get the odd journey aren't the problem. It's the people who get on at 2 packed stations who walk through behind/in front of people as the gates are open, meaning the person in front/behind may miss their open gate window.

The fare capping being at 35+ euro for the week on the Dart is a joke too. 7 or 8 euro a day for some people who are obviously their biggest users is going to leave a sour taste. It's 27 odd on the bus, not sure why this is different on the dart. The student cap is what it should be for everyone and lower again for students.

There should be a monthly pass on the leap card for 100 odd, would save a lot of the hold up at the one or 2 machines in most stations and just be handier for everyone in general. The lack of interactivity between the 3 systems in dublin is a joke. If you have to get a 2 Buses and a Dart/Luas on lets say a weekday you are nearly hitting the 9.20 cap which is outrageous for a days travel for the people who they should be helping. Considering the state of the system we are overpaying pretty significantly for the service.

goingnowhere

devnull wrote: »

Getting away with it at Connolly for example is extremely unlikely because of a highly visible RPI and staff, but places like Grand Canal Dock, Portmarnock, Clongriffin, Kilbarack etc are rampant.

Been checked at Grand Canal Dock 3 times in the last month including this morning. Just because you don't see someone tagging on doesn't mean they do not have a ticket. Yet to see someone pulled aside for no ticket during a peak hour check

devnull

I traveled from two non city centre stations every day for 18 months and was never checked once at peak times. It's good they are checking at Grand Canal Dock now because people have been using the layout to their advantage (I have heard them openly talking about it)

The only stations I have ever been checked at in the last 5 years are Connolly, Pearse and Tara Street. It's the outer stations where the most fraud is happening because there is far less checks and the cheats know this.

North of Clontarf there are a huge amount of people not paying their fare to/from work/school/shops every day, because simply there is never any ticket checks at those stations apart from at Malahide which is a strange place to check since it's the start of the line.

howiya

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Not saying it''s acceptable but there are so many doing it daily and it's very very easy to get away with it if you were so inclined.

It would also sort out alot of the antisocial behaviour at the same time if it was enforced.

During the day on the Luas and you see all the revenue protection up ahead at the next station, all the scrotes start to panic and get off the tram even if tickets are not being checked. They work better than security at clearing a tram up.

It would be great to see it fully enforced and to remove the predictability from it. As others have said there are places where people seem to believe they can get away with it and their experience then proves this to be the case.

I'm wondering if Transdev are more proactive in this area because they are a private company. I know they get a fixed fee per day from TII but they could be incentivised in the contract to enforce revenue protection eg targets or quotas and corresponding bonuses

devnull

Personally I wonder what station staff actually do for a lot of the time, when I used the DART for 18 months solid often the gates would be open, people would just walk through without buying tickets, there are delays or cancellations, no announcements are given, you ask the guy at the station, he says he doesn't know anything and it's not his job to give service updates or to stop fare evasion.

Personally they seem to be a waste of time a lot of the times, they are just playing with their phones and adding no value to the company in the limited hours they are there. Even if there are youths acting the maggot with a ghetto blaster they say they are not security so can do nothing about that either

There has to be some proper serious fare evasion crackdown on the DART, because the current situation is just a free for all unless you get on or off at one of the big stations.

GLaDOS

Surprised there seems to be so little ticket checking on the DART. I use the Maynooth line daily and usually get checked every 3/4 weeks, either on the train or leaving the station.

Heisenberg1

OP I can assure that the so called scrotes are not the problem when it comes to fare evasion on the Dart. I'm traveling on the Dart for over 15 years and I would say the big problems come from the middle and upper classes. I've seen them hop over the fence in Dalkey numerous times I would see the same people do it over and over again and that's just one station. I've seen 6th year students from the local private school buying child tickets and bunking the train, maybe 5 to 10 students at a time. I've reported it many times and the station staff have caught some of them but that is just from 1 station as most of them are travelling to Sandycove, salt hill booterstown and the likes.

Andy Magic

The only time you ever see an inspector is at rush hour when the working class are getting the train, they don't want to catch the scrotes.

Captain Chaos

Andy Magic wrote: »

The only time you ever see an inspector is at rush hour when the working class are getting the train, they don't want to catch the scrotes.

I use the DART daily at rush hour and have not seen an inspector in years on the DART. I get checked on the Sligo train like clockwork on the weekends though.

On the Luas I got my ticket check 3 times in one trip in the morning rush hour before. Massive difference is revenue collection practices.

Irish Rail seem to be more than happy to have hundreds freeloading on the DART system daily while at the same time complaining they can't afford to run longer trains to meet peak demands. It's joke of a setup.

devnull

As stated previously, if you get checked or not tends to be heavily influenced by which stations you use, the stations nearer the city centre and the bigger stations such as Dun Lagohaire seem to be checked a lot more than hte DART only stations where I see a huge amount of evasion.

Hollister11

Andy Magic wrote: »

The only time you ever see an inspector is at rush hour when the working class are getting the train, they don't want to catch the scrotes.

Never seen one during rush hour ever.

Infini

devnull wrote: »

Personally I wonder what station staff actually do for a lot of the time, when I used the DART for 18 months solid often the gates would be open, people would just walk through without buying tickets, there are delays or cancellations, no announcements are given, you ask the guy at the station, he says he doesn't know anything and it's not his job to give service updates or to stop fare evasion.

Staff will give the information if you ask the problem is at times the staff on the ground themselves wont hear anything either until announcements are made. Sometimes we only find out whats happening at the same times as the customers too. Announcements will get made though if its gonna happen for a significant amount of time.

devnull wrote: »

Personally they seem to be a waste of time a lot of the times, they are just playing with their phones and adding no value to the company in the limited hours they are there. Even if there are youths acting the maggot with a ghetto blaster they say they are not security so can do nothing about that either.

Its a catch 22 situation. Problem is theres questions over secutity and in the past you'd have situations where if staff went to confront them the first thing management would turn around and say is what were you doing out of the office? You cant really win. Best staff can do is call the cops if theyre loitering around and refusing to leave.

devnull wrote: »

There has to be some proper serious fare evasion crackdown on the DART, because the current situation is just a free for all unless you get on or off at one of the big stations.

To be honest management just dont give a damn they just want to close the stations in the long run and have the RPU fine as many people as possible because they think its their new money making machine. Can tell you this much it'll backfire eventually some of the RPU staff themselves are finding things are getting worse out there and I myself would'nt touch the thing with a barge pole. Rather help people not fine em.

Infini

Heisenberg1 wrote: »

OP I can assure that the so called scrotes are not the problem when it comes to fare evasion on the Dart. I'm traveling on the Dart for over 15 years and I would say the big problems come from the middle and upper classes. I've seen them hop over the fence in Dalkey numerous times I would see the same people do it over and over again and that's just one station. I've seen 6th year students from the local private school buying child tickets and bunking the train, maybe 5 to 10 students at a time. I've reported it many times and the station staff have caught some of them but that is just from 1 station as most of them are travelling to Sandycove, salt hill booterstown and the likes.

Used to have some control on the child tickets because you couldnt get them out of the machine only adult tickets then someone complained etc and they were put back on. Think one older guy was caught by the RPU one day with a child ticket from greystones to bray and was caught up the other end of the line with it.....

MarkAnthony

Just got back from my shop in Aldi. It was difficult running with bags full of shopping, and I'm not sure I'll be allowed back but it sure was cheaper not paying!

Infini

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Surprised there seems to be so little ticket checking on the DART. I use the Maynooth line daily and usually get checked every 3/4 weeks, either on the train or leaving the station.

The checking on the mainline might be higher since theres only 1 train an hour either way outside of the rush. Detection would drop drastically on the Dart line because of the higher rate of services every 15min.

devnull

The big type of fraud right now is LEAP protected fraud.

Don't tag on at the start of your journey carry a leap with you with a €5 on, tag off on the gates if staff are there and pay €4.70 or don't pay at all if they are not.

I call it leap protected fraud because essentially they are carrying a card to protect themselves against a possible fine with only intention of using it being ot prevent said fine.

That is why it needs to happen ON TRAIN.

devnull

Infini2 wrote: »

The checking on the mainline might be higher since theres only 1 train an hour either way outside of the rush. Detection would drop drastically on the Dart line because of the higher rate of services every 15min.

There simply isn't any proper checking at DART only stations. Nothing at all it seems North of Clontarf.

ixoy

devnull wrote: »

There simply isn't any proper checking at DART only stations. Nothing at all it seems North of Clontarf.

I don't recall seeing inspections at Clontarf Road much either for that matter. Is it more frequent now?

There was an inspection at Tara Street yesterday morning.

devnull

ixoy wrote: »

I don't recall seeing inspections at Clontarf Road much either for that matter. Is it more frequent now?

There was an inspection at Tara Street yesterday morning.

Very rare at Clontarf, but I saw it happen three times in 15 months of using the DART to there.

Tara and Conolly seemed to be the most common places.

Captain Chaos

devnull wrote: »

Very rare at Clontarf, but I saw it happen three times in 15 months of using the DART to there.

Tara and Conolly seemed to be the most common places.

It's laughable, they put inspectors on stations that are completely covered by ticket barriers yet non on the un manned stations with barriers left open most of the day.

Couldn't make it up.

Mrs OBumble

OP, if someone else (eg a scrote, sic) jumped off a cliff, would you do it?

Did you notice all the other working people around you who did pay? Think about their lives, vs the lads who didn't pay - who do you think is happiest, healthiest and likely to do less time in jail over a lifetime.

Hollister11

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

OP, if someone else (eg a scrote, sic) jumped off a cliff, would you do it?

Did you notice all the other working people around you who did pay? Think about their lives, vs the lads who didn't pay - who do you think is happiest, healthiest and likely to do less time in jail over a lifetime.

Of course I wouldn't.

But I do find it irritating that I work hard to earn money, to pay for transport to college, and then there's people with no regard for the law who just hop on the train. But the thing that really grinds my boat, is that Irish rail don't seem to give a damn.

Bray Head

I used the DART for a bit for work just after the introduction of LEAP. I was astonished at how easy it seemed to dodge the fare. Cast your mind back to the early 90s where most stations at most times had a grumpy man clipping your ticket and it was very difficult to evade him.

Enforcement is a bit like a Laffer Curve (below). Too little and the probability of being caught is low so many will evade. If you increase evasion declines to a point where further enforcement no longer pays for itself.



Irish Rail are very much on the left hand side of the Laffer Curve. A small investment in extra inspectors would do a lot for revenue I am sure. The comparison to Luas is apt. Once again the decision to not let CIE anywhere near it justified.

Heisenberg1

devnull wrote: »

There simply isn't any proper checking at DART only stations. Nothing at all it seems North of Clontarf.

How for you know this? Are you regularly travelling through each of the northside stations.

freyners

I used to live in clongriffin and take the dart when I was too lazy to cycle. This would have been at peak commuting times once every fortnight but I remember at least 2 or 3 occasions when revenue protection were waiting as people got off to check tickets/card before you passed the barrier.

Never once saw one on train

devnull

Heisenberg1 wrote: »

How for you know this? Are you regularly travelling through each of the northside stations.

The experiences of myself and also some of my colleagues that used to regularly boast about not paying who I used to see tailgate every day at Clontarf from their North city station?

I never say any inspectors in Clongriffin in early morning or early afternoon peak, not once. never on a train either. The train is where they should be, it's the very best place since it stops people carrying out LEAP protected fraud.

Just because someone can pass through a barrier with a leap card taking the maximum fare for not tagging on doesn't mean they were not intending to evade.

goingnowhere

The current practice is for the inspectors to stand at each turnstile and check each leap card before it is tagged off.

There seems to be a presumption here that no one is paying but no evidence to prove the claim

I can jump over the wall too, I have an annual ticket

devnull

goingnowhere wrote: »

There seems to be a presumption here that no one is paying but no evidence to prove the claim

That is the attitude that Irish Rail have as well.

If you removed all barriers and ticket inspections tomorrow there would be no evidence that anybody was fare evading and the numbers would be precisely zero.

But in this thread we're talking about actual fare evasion, not just the small percentage who are actually caught.

ixoy

Heisenberg1 wrote: »

How for you know this? Are you regularly travelling through each of the northside stations.

Never seen one in Killester either and it's quite busy. The station is small (too small really) so when the ticket office is manned, the guy at the counter sometimes looks out...

ED E

I used to get the northern commuter twice a week for 2.5yrs. I never once got checked. Not once. In the same runs Id be checked 20-30% of the time on the luas.

The big question I have is what the rate of payment is on LUAS fines. If you can convinginly give a fake name and address they cannot compel you to show ID so they can either wait 40mins for AGS to show up or trust you. Repeatedly they'd recognize the face but it would be good for a few times.

devnull wrote: »

The big type of fraud right now is LEAP protected fraud.

Don't tag on at the start of your journey carry a leap with you with a €5 on, tag off on the gates if staff are there and pay €4.70 or don't pay at all if they are not.

I call it leap protected fraud because essentially they are carrying a card to protect themselves against a possible fine with only intention of using it being ot prevent said fine.

That is why it needs to happen ON TRAIN.

Does that work at turnstyles? Or just stations with standalone tagging units? The network and the card itself know your status (tagged on or off) so if you try to go into Connolly the train side readers should reject your leap.


For me the consistent price hikes on luas have left me with a sour taste in my mouth and if it were as easy as Irish rail Id almost be tempted to join the scrotes.

PS: Transdev ignore drunks and junkies interestingly enough.

ixoy

ED E wrote: »

PS: Transdev ignore drunks and junkies interestingly enough.

I saw an inspector actually go up to a customer of the red line, there with a baby and the mother. He was the sort you'd expect them not to go up to. The charming customer roared that the inspector was scaring the baby (the inspector was perfectly respectful), that he was going to pay, and would the inspector like hot coffee flung in his face. They got off at the next stop, loudly giving out about the cheek of said inspector (and of course making no effort to pay).
It's because of that sort of threatened violence that would mean it's sad, but understandable, why inspectors are selective.

devnull

ED E wrote: »

Does that work at turnstyles? Or just stations with standalone tagging units? The network and the card itself know your status (tagged on or off) so if you try to go into Connolly the train side readers should reject your leap.

It will take maximum fare, not reject your leap, on both turnstiles and tagging units.

ED E

devnull wrote: »

It will take maximum fare, not reject your leap, on both turnstiles and tagging units.

Well thats a serious design oversight.

lucernarian

ED E wrote: »

Well thats a serious design oversight.

What would you set up then? That people get back on a train to go to a station that's manned? Have people use emergency exits to leave a station?

The barriers themselves don't seem to work well. In places like Clontarf Road in the afternoon peak, there can be an almighty scrum between those returning to Clontarf or getting their car to drive onwards, and people leaving work to get on the DART. People would try to tag on at the same time and upon hearing a beep and a door opening, both would try to go through. Whose card is really tagged off or on? Try watching the tiny screen in the barrier in that mess....

Speaking of Clontarf Road...

devnull wrote:

Very rare at Clontarf, but I saw it happen three times in 15 months of using the DART to there.

I was checked 3 times there during November alone, and another time in December or January. A single user's experience however counts little in the overall relevance of how often RPU are out and about. It can simply be just a matter of timing.

It's the most poorly laid-out station in the Irish Rail network in my opinion and to take that personal accolade from Drumcondra was quite a feat.

If Irish Rail could start with their ticket barriers from scratch, or else improve accessibility in places like there then maybe payments would work that much better.

To the thread in genera:, there's plenty of people who can't get their ticket option via Leap yet so there's no point assuming people who don't tag off are somehow crooks or riding black.

LXFlyer

ED E wrote: »

Well thats a serious design oversight.

Exactly the same principle as on London Underground with Oyster.

dublindiehard

It's very simple to avoid people clashing going in both directions from the same gates.

Make gates one direction only and it doesn't happen. I know that is not possible at every station but at places with large numbers of gates rather than two or three it is simple.

This practice is used in many cities all over Europe with far bigger passenger flows than Irish rail.

dublindiehard

lxflyer wrote: »

Exactly the same principle as on London Underground with Oyster.

Thing is though there are more ticket checks and staff at stations in London are vastly more likely to challenge evaders than ticket office staff here who are the only ones at the r station who claim it is not their job.

Also London doesn't leave gates open or have no gates at all like at some stations let alone Ungated exit like at Kilbarrack

lucernarian

dublindiehard wrote: »

It's very simple to avoid people clashing going in both directions from the same gates.

Make gates one direction only and it doesn't happen. I know that is not possible at every station but at places with large numbers of gates rather than two or three it is simple.

This practice is used in many cities all over Europe with far bigger passenger flows than Irish rail.

And beyond Europe also. But I was talking specifically about Clontarf Road and Drumcondra, which are woefully inadequate (especially considering that Clontarf Road is much newer). Just 3 gates in total at the one exit. Places like Connolly are not the issue with staff always present and large numbers of gates.

devnull

There are some stations where there are large amount of gates that half of which are always disabled and are never in use whilst rest of us go through the three that are.

Clontarf is a dreadful station I agree and this winter you had the leaks and the lack of lights on the stairway which took a complaint to railway safety commission to fix because it was pitch black in the early mornings. The station is too small for its needs really bearing in mind it's right next to a huge business park but unless they cut that access road off it's difficult to see how they can expand it.

Drumcondra is pretty simple that Star Express store, that seems to actually be part of the station should stop being leased out, become part of the station that would allow for a bit of remodeling, and 3-4 gates instead of the ancient 2 gates that are there.

LXFlyer

dublindiehard wrote: »

Thing is though there are more ticket checks and staff at stations in London are vastly more likely to challenge evaders than ticket office staff here who are the only ones at the r station who claim it is not their job.

Also London doesn't leave gates open or have no gates at all like at some stations let alone Ungated exit like at Kilbarrack

Barriers are frequently left open at National Rail stations in London.

ED E

lucernarian wrote: »

What would you set up then? That people get back on a train to go to a station that's manned? Have people use emergency exits to leave a station?

In manned stations like Connolly and Tara any attempt pops up on the attendants monitor, they can manually deal with it. At unmanned stations leave it as is. The vast majority of users will go in and out of the city not from satellite town to satellite town so that would scoop up a fare few dodgers.

lucernarian

ED E wrote: »

In manned stations like Connolly and Tara any attempt pops up on the attendants monitor, they can manually deal with it. At unmanned stations leave it as is. The vast majority of users will go in and out of the city not from satellite town to satellite town so that would scoop up a fare few dodgers.

How would that avoid the situation of people through little or no fault of their own, finding themselves unable to escape the platform? It doesn't matter if even 99% of journeys are from major to minor stations in the evening peak. Do you mean to allow for unlocked gates when unmanned? What exactly does "leave it as it is" mean?