Kovalev v Ward Discussion thread

walshb

Henno touches on something that bugs me. Certain fighters getting credit for not getting hit. Ward being one last night. Paulie (will he ever fook off ramming his 'excellent' knowledge down our throats) spent most of his credit on this. For the fair few very close rds where NEITHER man was landing anything of substance the commentators were OTT crediting Ward for not getting hit. To me those rds were SKs, as he looked much more the general than Ward did..

Joe Musashi

Henno30 wrote: »

Only ONE of the eighteen scored rounds in the second half of the fight was given to Kovalev?

I'm sorry but that absolutely stinks.

Very good point. I felt Kovalev was hard done by.

walshb

Holy fook! 3 U.S. judges and a U.S. referee? Is this a wind up? How on earth did team Kovalev agree to that?

Anyone know what oz gloves were used? They looked like pillows. 10 oz is the standard at this weight.

titan18

walshb wrote: »

Holy fook! 3 U.S. judges and a U.S. referee? Is this a wind up? How on earth did team Kovalev agree to that?

Anyone know what oz gloves were used? They looked like pillows. 10 oz is the standard at this weight.

Ya, the 3 US judges are the reason Ward won imo. Just the scorecard from 6th round on is enough for that, Ward wins every close round.

walshb

titan18 wrote: »

Ya, the 3 US judges are the reason Ward won imo. Just the scorecard from 6th round on is enough for that, Ward wins every close round.

I have heard of a home ref, or even two home judges, but I cannot recall a clean fooking sweep of potential bias in a world title bout. That is not sport. It's blatant corruption-rigging that allows that.

megadodge

I have often been critical of US judging in the past, so it would be hypocritical of me to say it was ok to have three US judges, but you have to look at the reaction by all the various posters on here. Quite a lot had Ward winning and everybody admits it was close, so calling a fight where all three judges had it by only one point a "robbery" etc. is not very objective.

walshb

It's the process of allowing the fight, fights to be officiated by 4 U.S officials (in this instance) that is bent, not necessarily the verdict(s). The process is plain wrong. The result was not a robbery, but the choice of officiating that was sanctioned was.

Btw, Burial. I am 8 rds into viewing it, and sorry, but nothing yet showing me any obvious impressive body work from Ward. 90 percent of the inside action is them tangled up. The other 10 percent is so so from both men.

Rd 9 was a Kovalev "clear" rd, but of course the crowd roaring anytime Ward looked close to scoring. Macklin calling Ward a genius after the rd and Paulie calling him inspirational. Not a sniff to mention that Kovalev controlled the rd...

Dick phelan

There was only one robbery last night and that was Perez vs Hooker, a shocking decision Robert Hoyle is a repeat offender of awful cards, he had it 9-3 to Hooker! Even the even card is a robbery but Hoyle has to be on the take or something, you cannot simply put it down to incompetence that 9-3 card screams of a card that was filled out before a punch was thrown.

normanoffside

pac_man wrote: »

Judges more or less thought it was a fight of 2 halfs.

While I figured the decision could have gone either way I am surprised none of the judges gave Kovalev the 10th. I thought he clearly won that round.

walshb

Glad I watched that again. Better fight than when I first watched it. I cannot give Ward that fight. Not a robbery, but SK for me was landing the better shots, as well as controlling the flow much more.

But, you know what, for Kovalev and his team to agree to allow it to be officiated like that, they deserve to lose. I wouldn't be surprised if his team agreed to allowing the judges and ref to have ear plugs with SS commentary on it. Paulie, Macklin and Smith only wanted to concentrate on one man, and it wasn't the away fighter.

As for the bodywork. Go watch it again. Couple snippets here and there, but to describe Ward's body work to be impressive or it standing out is way off the mark. It was a tangle-fest for most of it.

Henno30

walshb wrote: »

Henno touches on something that bugs me. Certain fighters getting credit for not getting hit. Ward being one last night. Paulie (will he ever fook off ramming his 'excellent' knowledge down our throats) spent most of his credit on this. For the fair few very close rds where NEITHER man was landing anything of substance the commentators were OTT crediting Ward for not getting hit. To me those rds were SKs, as he looked much more the general than Ward did..

Narrative bias. If the fight is low contact, then that guy must be winning. It's endemic and makes it easier for negative fighters to win decisions. It's the equivalent of a team parking the bus in soccer, and being given the victory for it without actually having to score themselves.

Diddley Squat

Another blow to the sport of boxing.

Did anybody see Ward's reaction when the scores were read out ?
Even he thought he lost the fight.

Even the last round - how could that possibly be given to Ward.

Following the bookmakers through out the fight and after 12 (and before the scorecards read) Kovalev was 5/6 Ward was 9/4 and the draw was 7/1

So the markets also believed Kovalev won the fight.
Too many people get influenced by biased commentating -

It was evident from the Hooker- Perez draw that there was an agenda from the judges.


Ward now Heralded as the great American leader of boxing? pffftt !

walshb

normanoffside wrote: »

While I figured the decision could have gone either way I am surprised none of the judges gave Kovalev the 10th. I thought he clearly won that round.

Or the 9th....

walshb

I'd love to see DeGale move up and challenge Ward and SK. He's big enough, tough enough and skilled enough. SK would be risky, but Ward would not.

weemcd

I was drunk and talking shít to my cousin while watching this, so I didn't listen to the commentary at all. I went to bed and woke up today thinking that Kovalev won, and reading this thread it's easy to see why. I will watch again at some point, but going to the score cards my thoughts were that Kovalev won the early rounds and this was clear, even when Ward started to show better work as the fight progressed I found it hard to give him the majority of the rounds. I don't think Ward did enough personally.

Henno30

walshb wrote: »

Henno touches on something that bugs me. Certain fighters getting credit for not getting hit. Ward being one last night. Paulie (will he ever fook off ramming his 'excellent' knowledge down our throats) spent most of his credit on this. For the fair few very close rds where NEITHER man was landing anything of substance the commentators were OTT crediting Ward for not getting hit. To me those rds were SKs, as he looked much more the general than Ward did..

Kovalev's defence isn't part of the narrative. Only his offence. Ward on the other hand gets credit for both.

walshb

Henno30 wrote: »

Kovalev's defence isn't part of the narrative. Only his offence. Ward on the other hand gets credit for both.

Exact same when Mayweather fights anyone. Falling over themselves praising him not getting hit, even when he's doing nothing on offence in return. The Pac fight commentary was a disgrace in that regard.

StringerBell

On a rewatch I am even more certain that Kovelov won that fight, still not a robbery or anything but I find it hard to believe if it hadn't been 3 American Judges Ward would not have got the nod, a hometown influenced decision imo. No way he did enough to take those titles as a challenger, but credit to both men.

A fight I really enjoyed and would look forward to a rematch, which will hopefully be made.

Johner

My recording stopped after round 5 :rolleyes: Will watch the full fight later.

titan18

Diddley Squat wrote: »

Another blow to the sport of boxing.

Did anybody see Ward's reaction when the scores were read out ?
Even he thought he lost the fight.

Even the last round - how could that possibly be given to Ward.

Following the bookmakers through out the fight and after 12 (and before the scorecards read) Kovalev was 5/6 Ward was 9/4 and the draw was 7/1

So the markets also believed Kovalev won the fight.
Too many people get influenced by biased commentating -

It was evident from the Hooker- Perez draw that there was an agenda from the judges.


Ward now Heralded as the great American leader of boxing? pffftt !

I think the biggest thing in that is listen to his corner between rounds. There was never one ounce of it being you've got this fight, or you won that round. It was you've got to knock him out, you've got to win these next few rounds etc. Kovalev's corner didn't seem to be as worried

Morrison J

titan18 wrote: »

I think the biggest thing in that is listen to his corner between rounds. There was never one ounce of it being you've got this fight, or you won that round. It was you've got to knock him out, you've got to win these next few rounds etc. Kovalev's corner didn't seem to be as worried

Don't think he ever said he needed a knockout tbf. Virgil was motivating Ward to finish strong which he needed given the fact he was behind in the fight from the start. I only had him ahead after winning the 12th.

The outrage over the cards I've been reading all over social media this morning is actually unbearable. Close fight with a lot of swing rounds. Pure nonsense that people are screaming robbery.

Lot of people scoring rounds to Kovalev because he was on the front foot but he landed **** all from round 4 on when Ward sussed out the range. You don't win rounds by finding gloves and thin air with the majority of your shots.

I wouldn't have argued if Kovalev won close whatsoever. It was extremely close. Rounds 3, 5, 7, 8, 9, 11 and 12 I gave to Ward. Some were clear and some were tight as ****. People saying it was a robbery are just wrong though.

selectamatic

I was thinking the same last night especially 1 or 2 of the rounds where ward started well but Sergey finished well

walshb

But so what if people were scoring for SK because he was on the front foot scoring nothing. Plenty times where Ward was not landing as well as being on the the back foot. It's natural for me, in these instances to favor the aggressor. This is what Henno alluded to earlier about this bias to somehow credit the man who isn't getting hit, but not credit the opponent who also is not getting hit, but who at least happens to be trying to score.

Morrison J

walshb wrote: »

But so what if people were scoring for SK because he was on the front foot scoring nothing. Plenty times where Ward was not landing as well as being on the the back foot. It's natural for me, in these instances to favor the aggressor. This is what Henno alluded to earlier about this bias to somehow credit the man who isn't getting hit, but not credit the opponent who also is not getting hit, but who at least happens to be trying to score.

Really is one of those fights where it depends what you like. I saw Ward landing his jab flush, tying up inside and landing body shots. Being economical but effective. I though Kovalev was just straight up being ineffective in his aggression.

Diddley Squat

That was easy work for Kovalev - never in danger.

Ill look forward to the rematch if it ever happens.
But I doubt it

walshb

Morrison J wrote: »

Really is one of those fights where it depends what you like. I saw Ward landing his jab flush, tying up inside and landing body shots. Being economical but effective. I though Kovalev was just straight up being ineffective in his aggression.

At times he was ineffective, but conversely, during a lot of these times Ward was doing nothing. SK at least looked the general. He manoeuvred the fight more than Ward. And, compubox (which I realise is not gospel had SK overall landing more). It was close, and % wise it favoured Ward, but to me Ward's work was not as substantial as Kovalev's.

What you make of Paulie? At first I thought he was good, but recently he has really begun to grate me. He just doesn't shut up. And the amount of times he was speaking nonsense last night... One instance was when he heard Dan Rafael had SK 5 up after 10 rds. His response was he's missing a good fight, even though he mentioned several times that disparities in the scores would not surprise him.

Morrison J

walshb wrote: »

At times he was ineffective, but conversely, during a lot of these times Ward was doing nothing. SK at least looked the general. He manoeuvred the fight more than Ward. And, compubox (which I realise is not gospel had SK overall landing more). It was close, and % wise it favoured Ward, but to me Ward's work was not as substantial as Kovalev's.

What you make of Paulie? At first I thought he was good, but recently he has really begun to grate me. He just doesn't shut up. And the amount of times he was speaking nonsense last night... One instance was when he heard Dan Rafael had SK 5 up after 10 rds. His response was he's missing a good fight, even though he mentioned several times that disparities in the scores would not surprise him.

I do see your argument. I just felt like Kovalev gave more of a false sense that he was the general by moving forward. Ward had him completely sussed though from around the 4th round on for me and Kovalev kept finding nothing but thin air due to Ward's superior control of the distance.

I usually like Paulie on the mic. Thought he was only ok last night. I agreed with the premise of what he was saying with Kovalev's ineffective aggression but felt he was too far on Ward's side. I couldn't see an argument for having Ward winning with rounds to spare personally.

walshb

BTW, from what I recall it took Paulie till rd 11 to mention Ward's body work, and that was only because he saw Ward land a body shot. He then made out that Ward was working the body well throughout. That is not at all true. There was body work (if you could call it that) on both sides, but neither man landed well-clear to the body as they were too busy tangled up.

Burial.

I'm actually losing braincells reading that you cannot see Ward's body work. Besides the KD punch from Kovalev which obviously steals the headlines, Ward's body work was the most painfully obvious offence of the night.

walshb

Burial. wrote: »

I'm actually losing braincells reading that you cannot see Ward's body work. Besides the KD punch from Kovalev which obviously steals the headlines, Ward's body work was the most painfully obvious offence of the night.

The way you are talking you'd swear it was a Mike McCallum masterclass....

Go watch again. I did not say no work took place, but to describe it like you have is way off the mark. Most of the inside action was them wrestling. Even the dopey SS commentators used such a word several times.

SK would not allow Ward to work. He was pushing and tangling. Exactly as I thought he would.

Anyway, maybe others could say what they saw? I have watched the fight twice, and I know clean and effective and clear body work when I see it. I also know weak and sporadic body work when I see it, and I also know wrestling and tangling when I see it. Ward's work was a mix of the weak and sporadic-wrestling/tangling!