Smart meters that can identify devices?

ED E

Hey all,

Now I'm sure I've seen more of these devices but my googlefoo is failing me right now other than Sense which is only at the preorder stage (and US only and iPhone only).

The concept being wrapping a clamp meter on the single phase mains feed to a residence and detecting devices via the noise/draw they create. My electrical knowledge is pretty limited, theoretically how viable is this?

Powerline signalling obviously works but thats a deliberate AC modulation, would the compressor in your fridge be significantly different from your washing machines motor? And the hoover? PC PSU vs kitchen lights? Would the RCBs not "filter out" for lack of a better term the noise of devices from rings to incoming mains?

Connecting everything via a killawatt isnt a practical idea, especially for devices that are wired directly, but this kind of per device monitoring could be really informative. If it works.

Thanks,
ED-E

Stoner

ED E wrote:

Connecting everything via a killawatt isnt a practical idea, especially for devices that are wired directly, but this kind of per device monitoring could be really informative. If it works.

Hi I'm struggling to identify your question , or is this just an opener for discussion.?

Identifying all your different devices from a single meter would be difficult. Some loads would have a signiture alright and could be identified. Identifying if something is on or off and identifying exactly how much load it's taking are two different things if you expect this from one device upstream from the sum of all your load.
Huge steps have been made in this regard, however I suspect that for full analysis we will need smart appliances or an addressable smart device per device/ device group.

ED E

I'm querying the viability of devices like the Sense(linked above).

Regarding measuring load assuming you're reading the sum draw of the home then the deltas could be automatically matched to devices, assuming you can identify them.

Say current draw is 3A, and then you switch on kettle, its "fingerprint" is detected and draw jumps to 3.5A, thus the kettle is 115W(not a great kettle). This would become more complex for variable load devices, but in theory could such a unit sense enough to deduce a good guess?

2011

You could simply work out how much power individual devices consume by reading the name plates on them.

2011

2011 wrote: »

You could simply work out how much power individual devices consume by reading the name plates on them.

That won't be anywhere near accurate for non resistive domestic loads. That's just a max. load rating.

2011

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

That won't be anywhere near accurate for non resistive domestic loads. That's just a max. load rating.

So far we don't know how accurate the OP is looking for.

ED E

Well, accurate to be useful. Rated max is no real indication of actual draw and doesnt show usage, just instantaneous.

The benefit would be from catching devices that are consuming more than expected or are running more than expected.

ED E

2011 wrote: »

So far we don't know how accurate the OP is looking for.

To be clearer, I'd class home meters in 3 ways:
A. A simple counter at the consumer unit, basically a replication of what the official meter reads (Such as the Owl range)
B. A system of multiple meters that are plugged in at each device providing a breakdown of usage
C. A meter at the CU that claims to detect devices based on their electrical signature

Its C that I'm looking at. A single point of install, per device metering.

Products I've spotted:

• Sense (110V only)
• Neurio (110-240v, 50-60Hz)
• Smappee

Here's an example of the training process that I'm interested in: (From the company, not impartial)

What I'm still unsure of is how accurate they are, and are EoP devices going to prevent them functioning.

Davy

electric Ireland have a recorder that can be installed at the CU that gives a readout of applicance cost, but i dont know how accurate it records

bk

ED E, yes, I'd love something like that too, but from reading reviews they don't seem to be very accurate at doing it unfortunately.

Stoner

True i could see a fridge or a washing machine having a signature.

But resistive loads like cookers Kettles toasters I'd imagine would be difficult to tell apart.

legin500

Wattics.com is pretty much exactly what you described. I think its restricted to 12 devices for each unit. Its probably more industry based.

As an aside I don't know how much call for this there is in the domestic market. I imported several smart metering devices a couple of years ago but people didn't really have much of a want for them.
The fact that they now knew how much energy their house was using didn't make any difference to them. "sure we use what we use" ie they know what wastes electricity the meter readings did not add any incentive to change.

ted1

legin500 wrote: »

Wattics.com is pretty much exactly what you described. I think its restricted to 12 devices for each unit. Its probably more industry based.

As an aside I don't know how much call for this there is in the domestic market. I imported several smart metering devices a couple of years ago but people didn't really have much of a want for them.
The fact that they now knew how much energy their house was using didn't make any difference to them. "sure we use what we use" ie they know what wastes electricity the meter readings did not add any incentive to change.

Wattics lacks accuracy , I bench marked it years ago and wouldn't recommend it.

OP what is your objective? Lights are fairly straight forward, as a electric showers as they tend to be based around d morning consumption, ovens tend to be on in the evening. Etc

ED E

Its mostly a hobby/enthusiast idea rather than expecting massive savings etc. With the rest of the tech in my life I can numbers on pretty much everything else and this is one of the IoT gaps in the house I'd like to fill.

I've done spreadsheets before and run the numbers based on expected "on time", and could continue to do that but this would just be a more hands off and fun setup.