This is ****ed up! Motor doping is very real.

velo.2010

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mechanical-doping-used-in-strade-bianche-and-coppi-e-bartali-claims-investigation/

I do hope they publish who was using the motors - let the riders and teams refute the claims if they can. Program is on TV later this evening, details in the article.

Inquitus

velo.2010 wrote: »

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mechanical-doping-used-in-strade-bianche-and-coppi-e-bartali-claims-investigation/

I do hope they publish who was using the motors - let the riders and teams refute the claims if they can. Program is on TV later this evening, details in the article.

Doesn't look good at first glance.

velo.2010

This show Stade 2 appears to be on right now - on France 2, so easy to find a stream for it. They're currently discussing Leicester City winning the premier league!

EDIT - This on right now

ridelikeaturtle

The *stupidest* way to cheat ... did they really think this wouldn't get discovered, by somebody?

enfant terrible

ridelikeaturtle wrote: »

The *stupidest* way to cheat ... did they really think this wouldn't get discovered, by somebody?

Van den Driessche said it wasn't her bike it was her friends :pac:

“I didn’t know anything about it. I don’t know how that bike got there. I was surprised to see that bike standing there. It’s not my bike. There’s been a mistake,” she told the Belgian broadcaster Sporza. “There was nothing in the bike that I used at the start of the race. I train hard for it too, you know. Then it’s no fun to be accused like this."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mechanical-doping-used-in-strade-bianche-and-coppi-e-bartali-claims-investigation/

ridelikeaturtle

enfant terrible wrote: »

Van den Driessche said it wasn't her bike it was her friends :pac:

“I didn’t know anything about it. I don’t know how that bike got there. I was surprised to see that bike standing there. It’s not my bike. There’s been a mistake,” she told the Belgian broadcaster Sporza. “There was nothing in the bike that I used at the start of the race. I train hard for it too, you know. Then it’s no fun to be accused like this."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mechanical-doping-used-in-strade-bianche-and-coppi-e-bartali-claims-investigation/

Yeah, right. You train hard, and you will get punished... hard: DQ'd and (if it were up to me) a time penalty for their next X races, something to significantly hurt their season. They'll double-check their equipment next time.

enfant terrible

ridelikeaturtle wrote: »

Yeah, right. You train hard, and you will get punished... hard: DQ'd and (if it were up to me) a time penalty for their next X races, something to significantly hurt their season. They'll double-check their equipment next time.

"but it’s identical to mine."

It's funny the male friend must be pretty small to be using a bike identical to her.

On an unrelated note her father is facing charges for theft and her brother is a proven doper.

For stealing parrots
http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/bike-dope-riders-brother-and-father-caught-stealing-parrots-on-cctv/

velo.2010

Hmmm, a little inconclusive to the viewer but there was definitely one rear hub which displayed a lot more heat soak than the bikes around it. An expert concluded it could only be mechanical to generate that sort of heat. It seems they had more footage which they showed to Cookson who tried to explain it away with friction etc. The reporter said one of the suspicious heat sources came from a rider who finished 4th in one of the races - make of that what you will.

The Hungarian 'supplier' showed the much hyped wheel magnets. Very Difficult to detect unless the rim is opened up. The rim magnets appear to be the way the pro's are going if teams are willing to pay that much for results.

And Contador's mechanic must have a fierce allergy to watch straps the way he was fiddling with it at the Giro last year. Strange clip!

So, mechanical doping goes on IMO anyway, but they need more checks on the bike - using heat guns during races and stripping down every bike and wheel which appears suspicious. This report will give some teams and riders something to think about.

velo.2010

Berner pulley cages, 32 teeth cogs, stiffer wheels, lighter tyres - Contador is indeed fastidious about having the most up to date gear in the peloton. He mentioned this when asked to respond to the allegations by Chippo and others at last years Giro. People will have to make up their own minds about that clip of his mechanic.

I do remember the story of the 2009 Tour when Armstrong was getting preferential treatment from Astana, helicopter trips back down the mountain, his own dining arangements etc. It was Munoz who spotted that Armstrong was using a prototype lightweigh rear disc marked up as Bontrager (I think Bontrager didn't have a decent disc then). Needless to say he quickly sourced a similar one for Contador in time for the TT.

koutoubia

Very disturbing to watch!
It puts a question over every 'Wow' attach either up a mountain or on the flat or every really fast time trial.

rollingscone

As cynical as I am, this lacks conclusive evidence and really someone needs to actually find some motors.

I'm sure law enforcement can be called to investigate outright fraud as alleged and seize some bikes as identified.

Only then will this escalate past a sensationalist witch hunt.

Must ask a friend who uses thermal cameras in his job what he thinks.

I've no doubt of or love for doping or cheating but right now this is all very DaVinci Code

Chips Lovell

The rule on doping speculation applies as much to mechanical doping as it does to pharmaceutical & blood doping. Please don't allege or speculate that someone has been cheating without documented evidence.

We've deleted one post that falls afoul of this rule and another that quoted it.

Thanks

irishrover99

I think the fact that they are unwilling to say who was using the motors shows that there is still what they believe to be a mafia type code of silence ("Omerta") in cycling like what they say there is.

If the media is afraid to name them then things must be bad. Afraid of being banished by all the teams,no more interviews ect ect.

Fian

irishrover99 wrote: »

I think the fact that they are unwilling to say who was using the motors shows that there is still what they believe to be a mafia type code of silence ("Omerta") in cycling like what they say there is.

If the media is afraid to name them then things must be bad. Afraid of being banished by all the teams,no more interviews ect ect.

No, sorry but no way is the media afraid to name suspects for fear of being banished by the other teams. They would just have a non-cycling journalist from their organisation break the story.

They have not named them because they have a much more sensible fear - unless they can prove the allegations in court they can't name individuals because they will be sued for libel.

ThisRegard

velo.2010 wrote: »

Hmmm, a little inconclusive to the viewer but there was definitely one rear hub which displayed a lot more heat soak than the bikes around it.

In the show itself did they show the film from the peleton itself were they said they believe they detected the motors?

gaffmaster

Well, there's only one thing for it...



Total Transparency.

Macy0161

Haven't had a chance to read up, but wouldn't the displayed heat shown on the camera's be dependent on scale? People are dismissing the power meter/ electronic shifting, but I haven't seen anything to say what type of temp was being shown up for the camera's if that makes a difference.

I'm always slightly dubious of evidence that the media (or their lawyers) don't have the confidence to stand over, so don't name names.

CramCycle

Macy0161 wrote: »

Haven't had a chance to read up, but wouldn't the displayed heat shown on the camera's be dependent on scale? People are dismissing the power meter/ electronic shifting, but I haven't seen anything to say what type of temp was being shown up for the camera's if that makes a difference.

I'm always slightly dubious of evidence that the media (or their lawyers) don't have the confidence to stand over, so don't name names.

Based on the side scale, the heat where the motor is claimed looks up at about 12degrees celcius. Oddly if it was just at the hubs or in the BB, I would be less suspicious but the heat pattern doesn't match in with what my limited understanding of physics would expect.

The main heat point, in the downtube is a few inches above the BB and seems to radiate from there, indicating, that is the heat source.

Does this trial photo match up with what they observed in the peloton, as I have only seen their own work. Does anyone have links to the peloton pics.

1bryan

rollingscone wrote: »

As cynical as I am, this lacks conclusive evidence and really someone needs to actually find some motors.

I'm sure law enforcement can be called to investigate outright fraud as alleged and seize some bikes as identified.

Only then will this escalate past a sensationalist witch hunt.

Must ask a friend who uses thermal cameras in his job what he thinks.

I've no doubt of or love for doping or cheating but right now this is all very DaVinci Code

If nothing else it re-emphasises how real these devices are though. And, given cycling's history and an attitute that has existed (and still exists) to do whatever it takes to win, I don't see why some wouldn't, at least, be tempted.

And that temptation must be even greater than taking pharmaceutical aids which may cause damage to a rider's health.

If this is happening, I can't see it being too long before the lid is blown off it.

1bryan

Macy0161 wrote: »

Haven't had a chance to read up, but wouldn't the displayed heat shown on the camera's be dependent on scale? People are dismissing the power meter/ electronic shifting, but I haven't seen anything to say what type of temp was being shown up for the camera's if that makes a difference.

I'm always slightly dubious of evidence that the media (or their lawyers) don't have the confidence to stand over, so don't name names.

Agree with this. At best these cameras could only really be used to help identify which bikes to test. I couldn't see anything being shown by the cameras themselves as being any way definitive.

And I'm guessing that is why no names were forthcoming.

Watched that whole documentary with my limited grasp of French.

There are some causes for concern but I think the evidence presented on race days is far from conclusive.

UCI need to be doing more.

fat bloke

You'd have to think that if the technology was available and working that there would be more money in marketing it openly and globally, rather than secretly and confined solely to a select few cheats in the pro peleton.

1bryan

fat bloke wrote: »

You'd have to think that if the technology was available and working that there would be more money in marketing it openly and globally, rather than secretly and confined solely to a select few cheats in the pro peleton.

at the alleged 50 grand a pop I'd say they've tapped into the only market that would ever consider buying their products (if the allegations are true).

I think the doping analogy is relevant here. About how, say in the example of what is now well-known about the US Postal team, how a select few, so-called stars, would have more money spent to assist them than lowly domestiques. Its not that much of a stretch to think something similar could happen in this case.

When you consider the value of the gifts that are showered on winners of the bigger races (highlighting the value of such wins), I think it could almost be considered as an 'investment'.

Trojan

UCI should take components - wheels - or even complete bikes for a full breakdown (i.e. destructive testing).

If necessary, finance replacements out of extremely hefty fines legislated on teams caught.

fat bloke

Well. Motor racing have strict mechanical controls right down to grass roots level, so it can be policed alright, or at least seen to be!

1bryan

An interesting piece on this issue;

http://fittish.deadspin.com/secret-thermal-camera-footage-allegedly-shows-seven-pro-1771492666

tomasrojo

New Scientist has an article on the clever innovation of using electric motors to win cycling competitions.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2085403-hidden-motors-cyclings-mechanical-doping-problem-hits-new-low/?utm_source=NSNS&utm_medium=SOC&utm_campaign=hoot&cmpid=SOC|NSNS|2016-GLOBAL-twitter

Probably nothing new there for people of this parish.

Moflojo

ridelikeaturtle wrote: »

The *stupidest* way to cheat ... did they really think this wouldn't get discovered, by somebody?

It's actually quite a clever way to cheat as it avoids the potential of getting found out years down the line.

The biological doping game is always about staying one step ahead of the testers. If you're using the newest substance or method available then the testers probably don't have a test to detect it. Yet. The problem with biological doping is that your blood and urine samples can be kept for years and could be tested using new methods long after you doped. If you're found out, it's bye bye legacy, or 'hand back those Maillots Jaunes', or 'You're getting sued for defrauding the federal government'!

If you cheat mechanically and nothing is found on the day of the race, then you've gotten away with it and your legacy is preserved. There's no conclusive way of proving you've cheated unless someone confesses, and even then you can engage in a 'He said, she said' defence until the cows come home.

1bryan

Moflojo wrote: »

If you cheat mechanically and nothing is found on the day of the race, then you've gotten away with it and your legacy is preserved. There's no conclusive way of proving you've cheated unless someone confesses, and even then you can engage in a 'He said, she said' defence until the cows come home.

which makes you wonder about certain 'champions' who roll out the line - 'I guarentee you I will never be stripped of my titles', in post-race interviews, doesn't it!

smacl

Moflojo wrote: »

It's actually quite a clever way to cheat as it avoids the potential of getting found out years down the line.

It's a step ahead for sure, but I'd imagine if they start recording other information for later use such as thermal imaging, electro-magnetic emissions etc..., for future analysis of tell-tale signatures, cheats still aren't protected from being caught at some stage in the future. In addition to hidden motors, the rate at which technology is advancing in remote sensing is also very impressive.

MPFGLB

There is a big case gong to break seemingly

https://twitter.com/cyclingmole/status/786327418630004736


http://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/Off_The_Ball/Off_The_Ball_Highlights/161645/The_man_behind_hidden_bike_motors_speaks_to_OTB

Macy0161

I heard it last night. I think I'm reserving judgement - clearly in yer man's interest to talk it up (in the first place) if he's signed a big deal with a broadcaster. He wasn't giving much away to Gilroy, except the fact that he'd dealt with Ferrari, which makes Armstrong's reaction on Friday to the questioning even more suspect!

There does seem to be a change in style of certain riders since motor checks came into place though, so definitely reserving judgement rather than dismissing it!