Car skids when brake and clutch pressed...

...wife said she was having a problem with her Golf, just took it for a drive.

When brake pressed, car slows down.

When brake and clutch pressed, car slows down.

However when clutch pressed harder, car seems to "lose it" momentarily. Dunno if wheels have locked and it's gone into a skid - this would involve decelerating from low enough speeds, say 30km - or brakes have disengaged.

Any ideas?

scamalert

is ABS working right ? - since it should kick in immediately,and should be felt on brake pedal thumping-find a straight stretch and give some gas then slam on brakes to see,might be sensor otherwise could been wet surface and if brakes were applied lightly just worn tires.

scamalert

scamalert wrote: »

is ABS working right ? - since it should kick in immediately,and should be felt on brake pedal thumping-find a straight stretch and give some gas then slam on brakes to see,might be sensor otherwise could been wet surface and if brakes were applied lightly just worn tires.

Thanks.

Tyres all in good nick, one or two new ones put on recently, and road conditions were pretty good. Guess will haul it in to the local garage.

CiniO

Deleted User wrote: »

...wife said she was having a problem with her Golf, just took it for a drive.

When brake pressed, car slows down.

When brake and clutch pressed, car slows down.

However when clutch pressed harder, car seems to "lose it" momentarily. Dunno if wheels have locked and it's gone into a skid - this would involve decelerating from low enough speeds, say 30km - or brakes have disengaged.

Any ideas?

Did you mean "clutch pressed harder" or "brake pressed harder"...

Makes little sense, as how can you press clutch harder than to the floor, which you should be doing anyway.

kirving

If the OP is correct, could it he to do with clutch and brake fluid being shared, and being very low, and causing strange behaviour?

CiniO

CiniO wrote: »

Did you mean "clutch pressed harder" or "brake pressed harder"...

Makes little sense, as how can you press clutch harder than to the floor, which you should be doing anyway.

Clutch. It's as the clutch nears the floor at the full extent if the push that the car seems to lose control or skid slightly. My wife skated into a roundabout recently, but at least it was quiet.

swarlb

Does your wife by any chance, press the clutch at the same time as the brake, for no reason other than she is pressing the brake. As in when she is coming to a roundabout as you stated, so she presses the brake to slow down, and at the same time presses the clutch... therefore 'freewheeling'.... some people have a habit of doing this, without realising what is happening.
Next time get into the car with her and get her to demonstrate what she is doing.

CiniO

swarlb wrote: »

Does your wife by any chance, press the clutch at the same time as the brake, for no reason other than she is pressing the brake. As in when she is coming to a roundabout as you stated, so she presses the brake to slow down, and at the same time presses the clutch... therefore 'freewheeling'.... some people have a habit of doing this, without realising what is happening.

It's a bad habit indeed, but it wouldn't case any symptoms like OP is describing (skids).

swarlb

CiniO wrote: »

It's a bad habit indeed, but it wouldn't case any symptoms like OP is describing (skids).

It would give the impression that the car is 'moving', simply because the wheels are obviously not driving the car, as in the car is simply being steered around the bend, rather than 'driven' around the bend. If the road was anyway slippery it would increase the understeer effect.
I have no idea what is going on with the op's car, I'm simply making offering a suggestion. Quite a lot of people, when slowing down, do not engage a low enough gear in time, and compensate by dipping the clutch, freewheeling and selecting gear as they are turning, rather than braking, clutching, selecting gear, releasing the clutch and 'driving' though... it's a common enough thing to do.

CiniO

CiniO wrote: »

It's a bad habit indeed, but it wouldn't case any symptoms like OP is describing (skids).

It could be freewheeling.

I don't know if the wheels are locked and skidding or freewheeling and moving, it's lasted for a second or two, the car keeps going. Maybe we're just overanalysing what we've always done and pushing brake, and clutch to change gears, and the clutch is becoming a bit...worn...or whatever the word is?

Esel

Braking while freewheeling (i.e. clutch depressed) - would that be more likely to cause this?

Change down (if necessary) before braking (in normal driving) is much better practice.

If you have to brake hard, leave the clutch alone until you are nearly stopped.

CiniO

swarlb wrote: »

It would give the impression that the car is 'moving', simply because the wheels are obviously not driving the car, as in the car is simply being steered around the bend, rather than 'driven' around the bend. If the road was anyway slippery it would increase the understeer effect.

That's a bit of a nonsense.
Freewheeling wouldn't increase understeer effect...
Actually on freewheeling car behaves the most neutral. When gear is engages, it can make it more oversteer on understeer depending how much gas you're pressing.

I have no idea what is going on with the op's car,

Me neither.

I'm simply making offering a suggestion. Quite a lot of people, when slowing down, do not engage a low enough gear in time, and compensate by dipping the clutch, freewheeling and selecting gear as they are turning, rather than braking, clutching, selecting gear, releasing the clutch and 'driving' though... it's a common enough thing to do.

My dad was taught that way - that always before pressing the brake, he presses the clutch.
In fact I don't think it ever happened in his 37 years driving career, that he pressed a brake pedal without having clutch pedal pressed.
As I said above - it's not a good habit, but it's not something that would cause any trouble or skids like OP is describing.

CiniO

Esel wrote: »

If you have to brake hard, leave the clutch alone until you are nearly stopped.

Well, in case of emergency braking, best practice is to either put gear on neutral or just press clutch so the car is freewheeling.

brembo26

Was there cheap/crap tyres put on it?

mickdw

CiniO wrote: »

That's a bit of a nonsense.
Freewheeling wouldn't increase understeer effect...
Actually on freewheeling car behaves the most neutral. When gear is engages, it can make it more oversteer on understeer depending how much gas you're pressing

Of course having a car freewheel will very much effect it's handling versus that of a car being driven in gear through a bend. You even confirmed it yourself in saying that engaging a gear can make a car understeer or oversteer based on throttle input. So if you can induce oversteer via engine power, you can surely alter under steering behaviour.
Certain I would feel out of control entering a roundabout near the limit of grip without driven wheels and a throttle input.

swarlb

CiniO wrote: »

That's a bit of a nonsense.
Freewheeling wouldn't increase understeer effect...
Actually on freewheeling car behaves the most neutral. When gear is engages, it can make it more oversteer on understeer depending how much gas you're pressing.



Me neither.



My dad was taught that way - that always before pressing the brake, he presses the clutch.
In fact I don't think it ever happened in his 37 years driving career, that he pressed a brake pedal without having clutch pedal pressed.
As I said above - it's not a good habit, but it's not something that would cause any trouble or skids like OP is describing.

Ok...just as an exercise... next time you are approaching a roundabout (make sure there are no people around, or cars around). Drive towards it, brake and dip the clutch and freewheel around it, keeping your left foot on the clutch. The momentum of the car will carry it 'forward' as in 'understeer' simply because the front wheels are not 'driving'. That is all that I meant.

CiniO

mickdw wrote: »

Of course having a car freewheel will very much effect it's handling versus that of a car being driven in gear through a bend. You even confirmed it yourself in saying that engaging a gear can make a car understeer or oversteer based on throttle input. So if you can induce oversteer via engine power, you can surely alter under steering behaviour.
Certain I would feel out of control entering a roundabout near the limit of grip without driven wheels and a throttle input.

Well, I agree with all you say pretty much.

But, you are saying that by being in gear, you just can have control over car behaviour. That's obviously true, but for majority of drivers this control is useless as they don't know how to use it.
You can make car more oversteer on understeer by operating throttle. Very little benefit for someone who doesn't even know that and won't touch a gas pedal is he/she thinks they are going too fast.

I would alse feel out of control entering roundabout near the grip limit, as I can do a lot with just a gas pedal in case of skid or it's prevention.

But if I was far from grip limit, I wouldn't mind getting to roundabout in neutral, same as lots of people do and survive.

CiniO

swarlb wrote: »

Ok...just as an exercise... next time you are approaching a roundabout (make sure there are no people around, or cars around). Drive towards it, brake and dip the clutch and freewheel around it, keeping your left foot on the clutch. The momentum of the car will carry it 'forward' as in 'understeer' simply because the front wheels are not 'driving'. That is all that I meant.

So you are saying the car won't turn as good when freewheeling as it would turn if I was in gear.
I'd argue that.

mickdw

Any chance there is a failure with the pedal setup with the result the pressing the clutch the full distance causes a movement in the brake pedal.

Iompair

If the clutch is pressed to the floor and the car is free wheeling then the front wheels will more easily lock up under breaking, especially if you are also cornering.

mickdw

Iompair wrote: »

If the clutch is pressed to the floor and the car is free wheeling then the front wheels will more easily lock up under breaking, especially if you are also cornering.

Yes but I don't think the op is driving to anywhere near the point where this would be happening all being well with the car.

Iompair

mickdw wrote: »

Yes but I don't think the op is driving to anywhere near the point where this would be happening all being well with the car.

Cheap tyres and a greasey road could add to it.

I had it in my head that you should never free wheel around a corner, brake in a straight line, change to an appropriate gear then drive around the corner/roundabout. It's this wrong?

2Mad2BeMad

riding the clutch is bad for the car

also its better the break and then clutch when your near stopping rather then clutch first
you have more control of the car with it being in gear.

jimmycrackcorm

It sounds to me like the ABS kicking in. Particularly when mentioning braking at the roundabout as that has happened to me braking very late in the same circumstances.

The Clutch is incidental as you would press that at the same time and the description is related to hard braking, and I don't think people experience what ABS kicking in is like very often..

mickdw

Iompair wrote: »

Cheap tyres and a greasey road could add to it.

I had it in my head that you should never free wheel around a corner, brake in a straight line, change to an appropriate gear then drive around the corner/roundabout. It's this wrong?

You would have it right. In my opinion, I would suggest an appropriate gear is one that gives you alittle power under your foot and allows you to accelerate away as opposed to a gear so high that you can press the accelerator to floor and little difference is felt.
Even with track driving, the idea is to get your braking done in a straight line, all gear changes sorted then balance yourself through the corner.
I do like to brake right into a corner though where needed.

ItsLikeThis

Floor mat somehow fouling the brake pedal when clutch pressed hard to the floor?

Esel

CiniO wrote: »

Well, in case of emergency braking, best practice is to either put gear on neutral or just press clutch so the car is freewheeling.

I said hard braking, not emergency braking.

Most people never practise emergency braking. In an emergency braking situation, steering (to possibly avoid the hazard) is the best thing to do. ABS is designed for that, but how many people know this?

It might well be that the scenario here is:

Slightly panic reaction, due to not looking ahead and being aware. Result: press both pedals hard. Further result: brain freeze; no steering input until too late.

Otherwise, I cannot see any connection between clutch and brake pedals.

Canadel

Off topic but clutch related, does anyone else find that the foot-rest to the left of the clutch interferes with your foot when attempting to depress the clutch in certain cars?

I like to keep my left foot at an angle rather than straight down and so when I go to press the clutch it catches against the foot rest and can prevent me from being able to change gear.

Poor design imo but I'm sure others would beg to differ.

Witcher

Canadel wrote: »

Off topic but clutch related, does anyone else find that the foot-rest to the left of the clutch interferes with your foot when attempting to depress the clutch in certain cars?

I like to keep my left foot at an angle rather than straight down and so when I go to press the clutch it catches against the foot rest and can prevent me from being able to change gear.

Poor design imo but I'm sure others would beg to differ.

I suppose if you were wearing clown shoes it might be a problem yeah :pac:

Esel

Canadel wrote: »

Off topic but clutch related, does anyone else find that the foot-rest to the left of the clutch interferes with your foot when attempting to depress the clutch in certain cars?

I like to keep my left foot at an angle rather than straight down and so when I go to press the clutch it catches against the foot rest and can prevent me from being able to change gear.

Poor design imo but I'm sure others would beg to differ.

Can't see how that could happen. Are you tucking the left edge of your shoe under that footrest by any chance?

mickdw

Canadel wrote: »

Off topic but clutch related, does anyone else find that the foot-rest to the left of the clutch interferes with your foot when attempting to depress the clutch in certain cars?

I like to keep my left foot at an angle rather than straight down and so when I go to press the clutch it catches against the foot rest and can prevent me from being able to change gear.

Poor design imo but I'm sure others would beg to differ.

Poor design but that's only cause we are the poor relation. Ever notice the nice wide full width footwell in the passenger side - that is what the Germans and everyone else who drives ob the other side gets. Loads of room for footrests.

Canadel

Esel wrote: »

Can't see how that could happen. Are you tucking the left edge of your shoe under that footrest by any chance?

In theory, your foot should be pointed in a straight line like when walking. But when at rest, and when driving, I always open up my left foot so that it is pointing at an obtuse angle to say the pedal. I also usually have my left leg tucked back away from the pedals. Hence when I have to change gear my foot (at the angle) can come down on both the footrest and the clutch, and if the footrest if too close to the clutch, it catches it and prevents my foot from connecting properly with the clutch. Very annoying.

mickdw wrote: »

Poor design but that's only cause we are the poor relation. Ever notice the nice wide full width footwell in the passenger side - that is what the Germans and everyone else who drives ob the other side gets. Loads of room for footrests.

That depends. If it's a problem that effects a lot of people, then it is poor design as cars are designed for real people. But I feel it's just me!

Esel

mickdw wrote: »

Poor design but that's only cause we are the poor relation. Ever notice the nice wide full width footwell in the passenger side - that is what the Germans and everyone else who drives ob the other side gets. Loads of room for footrests.

Even so, unless you wear Size 12+, or sandals, it should not be an issue.

Ignore the footrest - even if there is one there...

mickdw

Canadel wrote: »

That depends. If it's a problem that effects a lot of people, then it is poor design as cars are designed for real people. But I feel it's just me!

No there is a real issue with what is being produced for right hand drive market.
Few people suffer the exact issue you do but we get cars with pedals offset from the straight ahead in many cases all because the car is firstly designed for the left hand drive market.

Esel

I keep my left foot close to whichever pedal I might need to press. Never had a real problem with that technique.

I almost always keep both hands on the (steering) wheel too.

So she brought it in...
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...and it WAS the mat! Under the clutch pedal though, apparently it couldn't depress properly! Cue red faces...I saw that on a post here and thought, naaaa, I'd have noticed the mat...

brembo26

:pac:

ItsLikeThis

Deleted User wrote: »

So she brought it in...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...and it WAS the mat! Under the clutch pedal though, apparently it couldn't depress properly! Cue red faces...I saw that on a post here and thought, naaaa, I'd have noticed the mat...

I WIN!!!!!

ItsLikeThis

ItsLikeThis wrote: »

I WIN!!!!!

First prize!

You get us as your chauffeurs for a week...

TheBody

Some crap car mats really are deadly.

Recently bought a second hand car and the dealer had put new mats in it to bling up the sale. They were all over the place. They gathered in a lump under the pedals. So dangerous.

I quickly got rid of them and splashed out on fitted mats from micks garage that clip into the floor so they can't move. Money well spent in my opinion.

brembo26

ItsLikeThis wrote: »

I WIN!!!!!

master mechanic €1000 one for boards.ie voucher

seriously though good call!

CiniO

Deleted User wrote: »

...and it WAS the mat! Under the clutch pedal though, apparently it couldn't depress properly! Cue red faces...I saw that on a post here and thought, naaaa, I'd have noticed the mat...

But how does that apply to this:

When brake pressed, car slows down.

When brake and clutch pressed, car slows down.

However when clutch pressed harder, car seems to "lose it" momentarily. Dunno if wheels have locked and it's gone into a skid - this would involve decelerating from low enough speeds, say 30km - or brakes have disengaged.

If mat prevented clutch from being pressed properly, then I understand that once you pressed it harder, clutch was eventually disengaging like it should.
I still don't really get how this could cause car to loose it momentarily?

Special Circumstances

CiniO wrote: »

But how does that apply to this:


If mat prevented clutch from being pressed properly, then I understand that once you pressed it harder, clutch was eventually disengaging like it should.
I still don't really get how this could cause car to loose it momentarily?

And how the jesus was the car driving right at all if the clutch was being impaired to such a degree that fully disengaging the engine from the gearbox seems to have been unusual...???

STOP THE PRESS!

Was using it again today and noticed a noise from the clutch and it was shaky.

Brought it back to the garage...turns out the flywheel is gone. Not sure if that's linked to the problem with clutch and brake.