Fran Ventoso open letter on disc brakes in pro peloton

nialljf

Fran Ventoso open letter on disc brakes in pro peloton

from: https://www.facebook.com/fran.ventoso.9/posts/10156809619355611

Open letter: Fran Ventoso.

On disc brakes.

I’ve spent thirteen years in the pro cycling peloton and another thirteen moving up the ladder in youth categories. That makes it 26 years on my bike, training every day, enjoying what I like most, my passion. Since I was six, I’ve enjoyed racing, and I continue to do so. I’m so happy to have turned my vocation into a dream job.

Just like in any other sport, cycling has evolved in many technical aspects. However, it has not done so in others in a way we’d all have liked.
Through all these years, I’ve witnessed many improvements on different parts of the bike and cycling apparel. We started off with steel, then aluminum, and later on, carbon. That last one came here to stay, since it was as rigid as we needed while also offering lightness. We’ve also stopped using toeclips for clipless pedals, much more comfortable, effective and secure. Days are long gone when we used hairnet helmets: modern ones are now lighter, beautiful to the eye and offer absolute security guarantees when you use them.

I’ve also seen very important improvements on gearing. My first bike had one chainring and three sprockets; nowadays, we use two chainrings, even three, and 11 sprockets… and I’m certain it won’t end there. Technology evolution has been a sort of trial and error: getting to this point hasn’t been easy. I remember how easily chains were broken when we first used ten sprockets: links that broke, because of materials still not as resistant as it was required… it still happens today. We could also talk about the revolution that has brought the electronic shifting. When it was first shown and used, we all were surprised and made early judgments: it’s not necessary, it might not work well, carrying batteries seems wrong, having to connect your bike to AC is bonkers… And now, we can’t imagine our bikes without it.

My point is: two years ago, we started seeing disc brakes put on cyclocross bikes, and the rumour was that there could be a chance that they be tested in road cycling events.

Beforehand, I want to make this clear: I’m so in favor as anyone else that cyclocross professionals or participants in sportives enjoy the advantages of disc brakes during their rides.

But then, there’s pro road cycling events. Was there really anyone who thought things like Sunday’s wouldn’t happen? Really nobody thought they were dangerous? Nobody realized they can cut, they can become giant knives?

At Paris-Roubaix, only two teams used them. With eight riders each, that makes it sixteen, carrying a total 32 disc brakes into the peloton. Let me take you to 130km into the race: into a cobbled section, a pile-up splits the field, with riders falling everywhere. I’ve got to break but I can’t avoid crashing against the rider in front of me, who was also trying not to hit the ones ahead. I didn’t actually fall down: it was only my leg touching the back of his bike. I keep riding. But shortly afterwards, I have a glance at that leg: it doesn’t hurt, there’s not a lot of blood covering it, but I can clearly see part of the periosteum, the membrane or surface that covers my tibia. I get off my bike, throw myself against the right-hand side of the road over the grass, cover my face with my hands in shock and disbelief, start to feel sick… I could only wait for my team car and the ambulance, while a lot of things come through my mind.

Just a stroke of bad luck? I don’t thing so: few kilometers later, one of the thoughts I had sitting in the gutter becomes real.

15km after my incident, Nikolas Maes, a rider from Etixx-Quick Step, comes into the very same ambulance I’m sitting in. There’s a deep wound in his knee, produced by another disc, one of those 32. One question comes inevitably and immediately to one’s mind: what will happen when 396 discs get into a race where 198 riders ferociously battle for position?

Disc brakes should have NEVER arrived into the peloton, not at least as we know them right now. I haven’t met any rider who has run out of braking power with traditional brakes; I haven’t known anyone who didn’t see his wheels skidding when you brake with all power you’ve got, no matter traditional or disc brakes. Then: why using them?

Conversely, there are lots of problems to change wheels after a puncture; added trouble for neutral service, which has to carry three or four different sets of wheels to help you out in case your team car is not around… and the most worrying thing, as I stated before, is that disc brakes in its actual concept are giant knives, ‘machetes’ when crashing against or crashed by them at a certain speed. And in some points, we reach 80, 90, 100 kilometres per hour.

I’ve been lucky: I didn’t get my leg chopped off, it’s just some muscle and skin. But can you imagine that disk cutting a jugular or a femoral vein? I would prefer not to.

All of this happens because the international riders’ association –the CPA–, national riders’ associations, international and national feds, teams and, above all of them, OURSELVES, PROFESSIONAL RIDERS, are not doing anything. We always think that it’s not a problem if it doesn’t happen to ourselves. We always wait for horrible things to happen in order to take measures. Sooner or later, it could happen to anybody: it’s a matter of probability, we’ve all got the same. Pro riders should take a look beyond our own belly. Others tell us what we should do, but we just can’t forget WE’VE GOT THE POWER TO CHOOSE, AND WE SHOULD MAKE A CHOICE.

Disks produce cuts. This time it was me; tomorrow, it can be more serious and happen to others.

Mycroft H

Because bikes don't have pointy chainrings. And roads don't have stationary objects to crash into. And cobbles arent slippy. And so on and so forth.


People have been crashing and injuring themselves on the Paris Roubaix for as long as the race exists. Same with other races.

I don't believe the hyperbole.

happytramp

Mycroft H wrote: »

I don't believe the hyperbole.

I'm not sure how the opinion of a pro rider injured by disk brakes could be construed as hyperbole.

tunney

Mycroft H wrote: »

Because bikes don't have pointy chainrings. And roads don't have stationary objects to crash into. And cobbles arent slippy. And so on and so forth.


People have been crashing and injuring themselves on the Paris Roubaix for as long as the race exists. Same with other races.

I don't believe the hyperbole.

Probably best you read and educate your self a bit more.

Pros don't use the small ring on the flat.

Yes risks exist, why add another one?

ragazzo

tunney wrote: »

Probably best you read and educate your self a bit more.

Pros don't use the small ring on the flat.

Yes risks exist, why add another one?

Have to agree with Tunney on this occasion.
The first response post by mycroft is difficult to comprehend and shows a lack of understanding of bike racing generally.

spyderski

Mycroft H wrote: »

Because bikes don't have pointy chainrings. And roads don't have stationary objects to crash into. And cobbles arent slippy. And so on and so forth.

Is this a reason to add more danger? Where do you stop?


[/QUOTE]People have been crashing and injuring themselves on the Paris Roubaix for as long as the race exists. Same with other races. [/QUOTE]

People have categorically not been injured by disc brakes until last weekend

[/QUOTE]I don't believe the hyperbole.[/QUOTE]

He's speaking from direct personal experience. Perhaps you need to look up a definition of Hyperbole?

Mycroft H

ragazzo wrote: »

Have to agree with Tunney on this occasion.
The first response post by mycroft is difficult to comprehend and shows a lack of understanding of bike racing generally.

Thanks, I'll bear that in mind the next time I sit down to watch the spring classics. Not going to get into petty arguments about who knows more.

My point is, that there's already a significant amount of risk and you fall off onto the cobbles, you're going to be somewhat injured. It's a race with such a high amount of risk. It's tough. There's not exactly a lot of unbiased information out there either.

Pro Racer blames the disbrakes and everyone agrees

dragratchet

ive been lobbying for the introduction of parachute braking to the peleton for years but those pesky pro's simply wont have it....

Lumen

The anti disc argument is that the additional benefit is zero and the additional risk is non-zero.

The former is debatable, the latter is not really. Nobody ever got injured by a rim brake, at least directly.

omri

Perhaps its best to give this new technology one season and then reflect on how suitable or not it is in pro peloton. I wouldnt like to see anyone injured like that again but maybe in tdf or giro disc breaks can give far better control and keep raiders safer on descends.

niceonetom

Mycroft H wrote: »

My point is, that there's already a significant amount of risk and you fall off onto the cobbles, you're going to be somewhat injured. It's a race with such a high amount of risk. It's tough..

Exactly. It's already risky so there's no good reason not to make it even riskier. Frankly I think this disc brake issue is half measures - hopefully we'll see some sort of chainsaw action in years to come. Or fire? Fire would be exciting.

Mycroft H wrote: »

Pro Racer blames the disbrakes and everyone agrees

Again, spot on. It's preposterous that we should allow a professional with 26 years of direct experience and knowledge to challenge the opinion we have so recently pulled out of our arses.

Risks are all the same.

Opinions are all equally valid and likely to be true.

Lumen

omri wrote: »

Perhaps its best to give this new technology one season and then reflect on how suitable or not it is in pro peloton. I wouldnt like to see anyone injured like that again but maybe in tdf or giro disc breaks can give far better control and keep raiders safer on descends.

Riders always go to the limit. If they have better brakes they'll just crash faster.

omri

Lumen wrote: »

Riders always go to the limit. If they have better brakes they'll just crash faster.

Personally I'm 50/50 on the subject. But isn't P-R much more prone to various crashes than say TdF (despite some big crashes recently, maybe it's just less likely) - therefore the benefits of using these brakes might outweigh the risks, or they will stop using them entirely or just in P-R.

Leroy42

Its very strange. The UCI have had a very arbitrary weight limit for years when it can safely be undercut yet they seemed in a big rush to get this introduced

As it says in the letter, he has no issue with sportive or cross using them but there is simply no call for better braking in the pro ranks. These guys know the limits and by introducing this into the race they are simply bowing to manufacturers desire to sell something different.

They introduce all sorts of maintenance, bike safety (strenght of fork etc), quick release, spare wheels etc issues and don't seem to really solve any.

TheBlaaMan

I think the risks outweigh the benefits; Ventoso makes the point that the additional braking effort provided by disks is not needed and this is a crucial point; there are others and all are on the 'pull' side of the argument, (ie the users side) once these things are being considered for use, or not.

The other side of the argument is the 'push' side - the bike industry, and this is not inconsiderable. Every industry finds a way to sell/push more product as their existing product pipelines slow down, and in my opinion, brake disk use in road racing is just such a development - not being demanded by users, not offering any substantial benefits (that outweigh the numerous negatives anyway), but are nonetheless 'forced' onto the scene by the stakeholders - the bike/component manufacturers (substantial sponsors of teams), UCI etc.

I think Ventoso is to be admired in looking for a collective effort to look seriously at the adoption of disks, I dont know if he will have mush impact against the considerable resources that are in place to see disks deployed throughout the peloton.

clog

I have just seen on cyclingnews that UCI has suspended the use of disc brakes.
Not 100% sure of the source though.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-suspends-road-disc-brakes-in-races-after-ventoso-injury/

Kaisr Sose

Mycroft H wrote: »

Because bikes don't have pointy chainrings. And roads don't have stationary objects to crash into. And cobbles arent slippy. And so on and so forth.


People have been crashing and injuring themselves on the Paris Roubaix for as long as the race exists. Same with other races.

I don't believe the hyperbole.

Picture landing on a disc front wheel spinning because it's off the ground...then think of what the a spinning blade would do on contact with your skin.... A chainwheel or sprocket would appear blunt by comparison and they don't keep rotating for long in a crash. Wheras, a wheel off the ground keeps spinning for a while (including a back wheel with no chain on it )

Still hyperbole?

And crashes are not just a Paris Roubaix thing...in the Tour, big pileups in the first week are just as much a feature of every stage as the flam rouge!

Eamonnator

As well as the risk of cuts, discs get very hot.

Eamonnator

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/pro-riders-photos-of-horror-wound-from-disc-brakes-pens-open-letter/

Article from Sticky Bottle, showing some photos of injury.
Don't open, if you're squeamish.

dastardly00

EDIT: Eamonnator got there before me ^^^^

For those who want to see the damage that was done by the disc brakes..... Here is a link to some photos of Ventoso's leg...

Not suitable for those who are squeamish!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cf7f4CpW8AAAP83.jpg

Leroy42

Totally OT, but what is the blue 'string' type stuff coming out on either side of the staples?

omri

Eamonnator wrote: »

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/pro-riders-photos-of-horror-wound-from-disc-brakes-pens-open-letter/

Article from Sticky Bottle, showing some photos of injury.
Don't open, if you're squeamish.

Yuck... that changed my view on this issue...

sprite0

Just wodering on something here. He said in his letter that he didn't fall down, his left leg touched off the back of the bike in front and he kept riding until he noticed the cut later. How did he manage to hit the disc if these are mounted on the left unless the guy he hit was coming towards him. Pic shows cut to his left leg. Still though it looks horrendous and hope it heals OK.

Kaisr Sose

Wow!

The Hell of the North takes on a whole new meaning!

I hope it heals clean and fast!

letape

Cyclingnews reporting that the UCI have suspended the use of disc brakes in competition.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-suspends-road-disc-brakes-in-races-after-ventoso-injury/

Hope it remains like that - reminds of the spinergy wheel debate about 15 years ago. No doubt discs still have a use in leisure cycling but not in a bunch of 200 riders riding at 50kph.

dastardly00

Leroy42 wrote: »

Totally OT, but what is the blue 'string' type stuff coming out on either side of the staples?

Could be something like this?
https://m.reddit.com/r/Health/comments/1kisvq/had_surgery_on_my_knee_have_some_kind_of_string/

Buzwaldo

Leroy42 wrote: »

Totally OT, but what is the blue 'string' type stuff coming out on either side of the staples?

Most likely a drain to stop fluid accumulating deep in the wound and interfering with healing. Will be left in for a small few days I think. (But I may be wrong - perhaps a medic will confirm)

dastardly00

sprite0 wrote: »

Just wodering on something here. He said in his letter that he didn't fall down, his left leg touched off the back of the bike in front and he kept riding until he noticed the cut later. How did he manage to hit the disc if these are mounted on the left unless the guy he hit was coming towards him. Pic shows cut to his left leg. Still though it looks horrendous and hope it heals OK.

The rider in front maybe slid/turned counter-clockwise and Ventoso slid/turned clockwise?

CramCycle

Leroy42 wrote: »

Its very strange. The UCI have had a very arbitrary weight limit for years when it can safely be undercut yet they seemed in a big rush to get this introduced

Bike producers want a quick way to get many enthusiasts to buy more bikes quicker.

Thats my impression anyway.

doozerie

In the letter he describes his leg as having touched the back of the bike of the rider in front of him. The only way I can picture it happening is that his left leg straddled the rear wheel of the bike in front and was on its left side. And that wheel and rotor must have been moving, presumably, as it's hard to imagine that injury being caused by a stationary rotor. That all paints a picture of an unusual mash-up of riders and bike, not what I'd consider a "typical" crash, if such a thing exists.

The long and the short of it though is that he incurred a horrible injury, and the rotor seems to have been the cause if it being so severe. That certainly warrants discussion about the use of disc brakes in the pro peleton but that discussion is not helped by references to legs being "chopped off", or dismissing similar dangers in cyclocross as if crashes don't happen in CX or if they do they only ever involve a single rider or something, etc. That's where the hyperbole comes in, and it detracts from any proper consideration about the pros and cons of disc brakes.

I'd like to hear the views of other pro riders on the topic. What do they think of the benefits and the risks? What do pro CX riders think, considering many of them have a wealth of experience of racing with disc brakes? Is Ventoso's view representative, or is it entirely biased by what might well be an extremely rare and unfortunate occurrence?

As far as I am concerned rotors are clearly dangerous, I wouldn't want any part of me near one while it is spinning. But I also wouldn't want any of my fingers near a spinning spoked wheel either, particularly wheels with flat spokes. Carbon frames shatter, wheels collapse, handlebars snap, chains snap, carbon rims (used to) delaminate/disintegrate while braking, etc., etc. Pro riders live with these risks all the time, because presumably for them the benefits of various technologies and components outweigh the risks. Are rotors one risk too many or are they yet another reasonable risk for the benefits they (might) offer?

And on the topic of benefits, the stopping power of disc brakes is often the sole focus of any discussion about them. I don't understand that. As mentioned time and again it doesn't matter whether you can stop the wheel dead if the tyre just loses all grip on the road as a consequence - sometimes you might want to skid your bike but typically you wouldn't want to do that in a bunch. For me the main potential benefit of disc brakes on road bikes is the ability to better modulate your speed, and in all road conditions, not the potential outright stopping power. The mechanical disk brakes on my commute bike are not great in that regard though, are good quality (road) hydraulic disc brakes better than modern rim brakes? And if so, are the benefits enough to justify the weight penalty and potential risks?

Tenzor07

Ban chainrings too! :pac:

Eamonnator

Yes,but only two teams were using discs in P.R.
The chances of the same happening again will surely increase, if every team start using discs.

Lumen

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Ban chainrings too!

As has been pointed out already, the chain covers the teeth of the big ring in almost all pileups. Uphill mass pileups are rare.

doozerie

Eamonnator wrote: »

Yes,but only two teams were using discs in P.R.
The chances of the same happening again will surely increase, if every team start using discs.

Many pro CX riders use discs. That's a lot of riders + rotors crammed together in what are often conditions that seem designed to take riders off their bikes. How many injuries are incurred from rotors in CX race falls and crashes?

Before we take one horrible injury on the road as representative, the experiences of their use off-road should be taken into account - that data is presumably available, it could be very informative.

Tenzor07

These guys at a MTB race are lucky to have survived without rotor cut! :rolleyes:

ford2600

doozerie wrote: »

Many pro CX riders use discs. That's a lot of riders + rotors crammed together in what are often conditions that seem designed to take riders off their bikes. How many injuries are incurred from rotors in CX race falls and crashes?

Before we take one horrible injury on the road as representative, the experiences of their use off-road should be taken into account - that data is presumably available, it could be very informative.

https://twitter.com/ryantrebon/status/430041511343185920/photo/1 (don't click if you don't like to look at cuts)

February 14 I think

ThisRegard

That's vicious alright.

niceonetom

doozerie wrote: »

I'd like to hear the views of other pro riders on the topic.

So would I, but that's not going to happen. At least not in any reliable way. Their job is to sell bikes, wheels and groupsets - the racing is simply a means to that end. Who has the job security to be able to publicly say "our sponsors' products are dangerous and unnecessary"? Probably about 10 big riders who won't because they are paid enough to make sure they never will. Everyone else is on two-year contracts and will sing from whatever hymn-sheet is put before them.

The most valid opinions on this are the least likely to be expressed, at least until they end up in hospital it seems. Even then I'd be amazed if Canyon and Campagnolo (who have a bunch of disc braked frames, wheels and groupsets all ready to sell us) aren't at least giving Movistar's DS the evil eye today.

I've no doubt that emails are going out to riders, mechanics, and team bosses today that maybe they should be very careful what they say about discs should the press ask them for an opinion. Some will break ranks of course, because they're not all clever enough to know to STFU. It'll be interesting to hear how the industry responds.

Eamonnator

Confession time.
About ten years ago, I was checking over my MTB. I was having trouble with the pads rubbing against the discs. I had my bike on the work stand.I spun the back wheel to see, if I could see where the disc was rubbing. I thought, I saw where the problem was and went to adjust the pad, my finger got caught in the rotor.
I cut it badly, had to go to A&E. I got 5 stitches and still have no feeling in the tip of that finger.
Never happened again.

doozerie

ford2600 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/ryantrebon/status/430041511343185920/photo/1 (don't click if you don't like to look at cuts)

February 14 I think

That's certainly another horrible injury, and one that sticks in the memory, but is it yet another rare occurrence or an example of a common rotor-induced injury though?

While searching for further info on the cause of that particular injury (to see if it was caused by a rotor, as it looks like), I came across an article saying that the same guy fractured two vertebrae in a crash in 2014. As scary injuries go, breaking your back has to be near the top of the list in terms of long term impact, but while it's not the first time I've read of a rider having incurred such an injury I don't recall much in the way of uproar at this being a risk that pretty much every pro (and non-pro) rider takes on in every race. Some of that is certainly because bloody and open wounds generate a stronger reaction than potentially much more serious but less gory injuries, but maybe our perception of risk is just flawed too and we shout about what are arguably the "wrong' things.

In the case of Paris-Roubaix, maybe it's the "right" thing to complain about the risk of disc brakes, or maybe we should be looking at the terrain the riders are subjected to and we should complain about the many many risks they are being obliged to endure year after year in such a race. It's a fantastic spectacle though, an amazing demonstration of sheer guts and grit on the part of the riders, as spectators we probably don't want to risk the loss of that. So our assessment of acceptable risk is biased, we're trying to balance our own enjoyment of the spectacle with the welfare of the riders (assuming we even take their welfare into account). Such is the nature of any spectator sport of course, but Paris-Roubaix is particularly fierce, and for that reason I'd put more weight on the view of the riders themselves than of us biased sitting-on-the-ditch spectators.

doozerie

niceonetom wrote: »

So would I, but that's not going to happen. At least not in any reliable way.

I agree it's unlikely to happen, but riders have held their ground en masse before, and more than once. If rotors are seen by the riders as an unacceptable risk, I'd hope they'd protest loudly and publicly this time too. No guarantee that it would succeed of course, they are fighting an uphill battle as ever, but it would make it clear that they don't want disc brakes. Without that I can't see any halt to the widespread roll-out of disc brakes.

Chips Lovell

Look at this Wendy.



You don't see anyone doing Paris - Roubaix with knee pads, do you? :rolleyes:

Tenzor07

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

You don't see anyone doing Paris - Roubaix with knee pads, do you? :rolleyes:

Or in XC racing Julie...:rolleyes:

doozerie

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

You don't see anyone doing Paris - Roubaix with knee pads, do you? :rolleyes:

I wonder how we'd react if riders did start to wear knee pads, back protectors, full-face helmets, etc., for Paris-Roubaix? Or what if the toughest and most dangerous sections of pavé were taken out of the route? Would we welcome these for the potential safety benefits for the riders, or we would we complain about the race being diminished for us in some way?

Look at some of the reactions to stages being cancelled recently due to poor weather, the reaction against those decisions seemed to be louder and more vocal that the reaction in favour. How motivated was that by concerns which take the riders into account and how much by annoyance that we wouldn't get our quota of cycling viewing that day?

Basically, how much do we care for the welfare of the riders really? The gist of some of the public reaction to disc brakes seems to be that the riders are somehow safe "enough" right now but that rotors push races into the realm of dangerous. Maybe we are getting upset about the wrong thing.

Chips Lovell

Sorry, I think my point was lost there. It's horses for courses and doesn't make sense to compare disciplines. Nobody complained about discs in CX because you usually don't have the same kind of crashes.

Inquitus

Tenzor07 wrote: »

These guys at a MTB race are lucky to have survived without rotor cut! :rolleyes:

CX and MTBing aren't bunch sports so its a particularly pointless comparison, that bunch would have been all over the circuit for the entire race. In Road cycling, as you well know, the bunch will remain intact for the entire 4-5 hours of the stage or race, disingenuous post at best.

doozerie

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Nobody complained about discs in CX because you usually don't have the same kind of crashes.

That depends on what you mean by "same kind of crashes". Riders fall and crash in CX, sometimes while riding solo and sometimes while riding amongst others, much like they do on the road. At least some data should be available about the nature of those CX falls/crashes and the extent to which rotors contributed to severe injury, or not.

That kind of data should be considered when discussing whether disc brake use on the road is likely to lead to a significant increase in risk for the riders. Otherwise any discussion will just consist of pitching ill-informed opinions/generalisations against ill-informed opinions/generalisations, it'll be a pointless row rather than a debate.

Lumen

Lumen wrote: »

As has been pointed out already, the chain covers the teeth of the big ring in almost all pileups. Uphill mass pileups are rare.

On pure power numbers, the inertia of a disc rotor spinning after a sprint finish crash is comparable to an angle grinder.

Just saying..

Chips Lovell

Crashing in a road race often involves having others and their bikes coming down alongside you. Crashing in off-road races, less so.

doozerie

Races are unpredictable things at best. Some road races blow up and riders are scattered all along the road in groups of very small numbers, some road races have a large peleton that stays tightly packed together and travelling at speed for a long time. Some CX races blow up and most riders ride solo for the majority of the race, some CX races don't blow up and you have many groups scattered across the course, each and every rider within each group having to focus constantly just to keep their own bike upright at all times.

We are far too casual in dismissing the risks associated with CX races versus road races. What's worse, coming down in a bunch of 20 on the road (where the actual road hazards are usually few and far between = risk of fall being X), or coming down in a group of 4 riders off-road (where the hazards are many and constant = risk of fall being some multiple of X)? I don't know the answer to that, but I'm convinced that the difference between the two is not so huge as some people seem to believe.

There should be data available about CX crashes though that might help inform whether rotors are the scourge they are being painted as for road users, that would be a good starting point for any argument for or against disc brakes.

Raam

One thing to note... a chainring is a required part in order to make the bike actually function. A rotor is not.