RTE Radio program EV Cars

steelboots

I listened with disappointment to the program this morning with Sean O'Rourke program on EV's (Like below, jump in 20mins).

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/today-with-sean-o-rourke/#2152475

Did nothing to promote or give useful facts on EV ownership, costs, running costs etc....


Your thoughts ?

mordeith

steelboots wrote: »

I listened with disappointment to the program this morning with Sean O'Rourke program on EV's (Like below, jump in 20mins).

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/today-with-sean-o-rourke/#2152475

Did nothing to promote or give useful facts on EV ownership, costs, running costs etc....


Your thoughts ?

'You can't carry a spare can of pertrol'
That would be useful in an electric car :rolleyes:
Also, who the hell carries spare petrol with them anyway?

Pretty poor interview overall. Mainly talked about renewable energy in general.

I have to listen later but what would you expect on an Island that still burns coal for heating ?

Most people haven't a clue about electric cars, including the Government and here lies the greatest problem, the Government have no green thinking what so ever and these emissions fines are easy just to make the tax payer pay rather than get to the root problem.

NIMAN

I missed it and was going to listen back, but I think I'll give it a miss now.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I have to listen later but what would you expect on an Island that still burns coal for fueling electric cars.

Pertinent and relevant to the comment the chap made re the life pollution comparison with diesel cards. It would seem there is little difference overall. EV pollution is just created somewhere else.

steelboots

steelboots wrote: »

I listened with disappointment to the program this morning with Sean O'Rourke program on EV's (Like below, jump in 20mins).

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/today-with-sean-o-rourke/#2152475

Did nothing to promote or give useful facts on EV ownership, costs, running costs etc....


Your thoughts ?

Probably not their job to promote EV?

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Pertinent and relevant to the comment the chap made re the life pollution comparison with diesel cards. It would seem there is little difference overall. EV pollution is just created somewhere else.

20 % of our leccy fuel comes from coal, there are several days/nights where 50% of our electricity comes from wind. The rest is gas/hydro/ British Nuclear.

That's a lot of energy that doesn't have to be refined to make petrol and diesel and then that petrol and diesel burned at best 30% efficiency in a diesel engine, at best of course, not many drive a diesel at it's optimum efficiency or drive on the open road but in towns where they're least efficient.

Electrics use their energy vastly more efficiently.

With a feed-in-tariff there is no reason a lot of electricity to charge electric cars can't come from solar PV or wind micro generation.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Pertinent and relevant to the comment the chap made re the life pollution comparison with diesel cards. It would seem there is little difference overall. EV pollution is just created somewhere else.

Firstly the program overlooked serval points

centrally the producing of transport power allows you to bring economies of scale to pollution reduction that are not feasible at the vehicle level , This includes a switch to renewals

furthermore point pollution is important , cars generate incredible levels of local pollution rising to the point of serious health risks for urban living and especially children

EVs at least move that pollution to areas and disposal mechanism that are not as toxic

in that regard EVs offer significant benefits for urban users

This is before you add in things like significant noise reduction etc

end to end or lifetime pollution or C02 emissions is a nonsense argument anyway, most of it would happen anyway , with or without EVs.

Who cares about Co2 ? it's not pollution.

zilog_jones

Deleted User wrote: »

That's a lot of energy that doesn't have to be refined to make petrol and diesel and then that petrol and diesel burned at best 30% efficiency in a diesel engine, at best of course, not many drive a diesel at it's optimum efficiency or drive on the open road but in towns where they're least efficient.

Electrics use their energy vastly more efficiently.

Diesel engines are more like 50-55% efficient, but yes normal driving conditions won't lead to maximum efficiency (especially with traditional transmissions).Thermal efficiency is up to 38.5% in the Toyota 2ZR-FXE petrol engine used in the Prius, Auris Hybrid, Lexus CT200h, etc.

The SEAI claim 48.3% efficiency for electricity supply in Ireland as of 2013, but I guess that's including more than just thermal efficency.

It may be true that most of our electricity is generated from fossil fuels, but the large majority of that is natural gas which produces much less harmful pollutants than diesel, especially NOx and particulates - that's the kind of stuff that has a real effect on the local environment, not CO2.

Diesel engines are not 50-55% efficient. Not even close.

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Who cares about Co2 ? it's not pollution.

Most of the world , just because you understand NOX and sox doesn't me another people do not. And co2 is responsible for climate change

Most of the world ? I seriously doubt that, the majority of people don't care about emissions in general.

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Most of the world ? I seriously doubt that, the majority of people don't care about emissions in general.

That's not what I said and you know it. Grow up take your head out of the clouds

No I'll say it again, most of the world doesn't care about emissions, most of the population in the world lives in worse conditions than we do in the Western World, and I guarantee their only concern is putting food on the table. And even in the Western World I think emissions are far off the scale of concerns of the majority of people.

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No I'll say it again, most of the world doesn't care about emissions, most of the population in the world lives in worse conditions than we do in the Western World, and I guarantee their only concern is putting food on the table. And even in the Western World I think emissions are far off the scale of concerns of the majority of people.

the ones living in poverty don't really contribute to emissions and the developed world do actually care about emissions , the Green Party got elected in south county Dublin which is a sign.

But people like do do turn people off , you need to engage people and encourage them.

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

the ones living in poverty don't really contribute to emissions and the developed world do actually care about emissions , the Green Party got elected in south county Dublin which is a sign.

But people like do do turn people off , you need to engage people and encourage them.

I think those who voted the Greens in South Dublin did so for reasons other than the environment.

But we'll agree to disagree.

I do care about emissions, just not the emissions of the media.

zilog_jones

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Diesel engines are not 50-55% efficient. Not even close.

Thermal efficiency yes, and that's usually the only type of efficiency when talking about ICEs. Diesel cycle is inherently more efficient than Otto or Atkinson cycle used in petrol engines.

steelboots

Folks we're going off topic again !

FYI, Newstalk had Conor Faulkner from the AA talking on Friday evening, a better article than RTE, but only marginally.

I think one big point that seems to be missed is that the range of the Leaf covers the majority of peoples commutes if the CSO figures for journey distances is to be believed. How many people dive more than 140km on a regular basis.

zilog_jones

Covering commutes is one thing, but a lot of people buy cars for more than just commuting. I regularly do a 200 km round trip (at least once a month), but have no convenient charging point at the other end, which makes a BEV impractical for me. I also want the ability to be able to drive anywhere (Belfast, etc.) without the hassle of having to rent a car for the occasion, or adding hours to my trip for charging.

I think something like the Leaf makes a lot of sense as a second car for a family, but not for me yet.

steelboots

zilog_jones wrote: »

Covering commutes is one thing, but a lot of people buy cars for more than just commuting. I regularly do a 200 km round trip (at least once a month), but have no convenient charging point at the other end, which makes a BEV impractical for me. I also want the ability to be able to drive anywhere (Belfast, etc.) without the hassle of having to rent a car for the occasion, or adding hours to my trip for charging.

I think something like the Leaf makes a lot of sense as a second car for a family, but not for me yet.

Fair enough. I do about 10 long trips per year. I have the option of taking the wife's ICE, but so far I taken the Leaf on 2 x 240 km trips and its costing me almost nothing on fuel, ok its adding 1 hour to my journey but I'll take the hit on time to save the €17 euro or so.

steelboots

steelboots wrote: »

I think one big point that seems to be missed is that the range of the Leaf covers the majority of peoples commutes if the CSO figures for journey distances is to be believed. How many people dive more than 140km on a regular basis.

Yeah but the majority of people don't care, and have a really bad idea about electric cars in the first place. And Diesel suits them so they don't see the need for electric especially with the "cheap" cost of diesel !

I'm hoping the 300+ km electrics due around 2018 which isn't far away might change people's minds. I have my doubts.

zilog_jones

I think the government will need to continue incentivizing BEVs in some way. I know the current system of free charging points and free home installations is probably not sustainable, but if they could keep it affordable it would help.

Maybe they should tax cars based on NOx emissions rather than CO2, that would shake up the system

pwurple

You know, EV's really are starting to suffer from misinformation and a lack of good PR.

Does anyone see a glut of stranded EV's around the roads?

On burning coal for fuel, you can source your electricity whatever way you want. I know people who run their Ev partly from their own solar panels. There are electicity providers available who resell energy generated from particular sources only. https://www.pandapower.ie

We have had our EV for over a year now, with a family of 5 people. Never been stranded or caught without it, never had a negative incident. Enjoyed the fun and ease of driving it, and all the toys like defrosting it remotely and preheating the seats while I have my toast in the mornings.

We live in Cork, so along the with grant, low tax and and the general very low cost of running it, we also had free city parking, free tolls and a very well run local infrastructure with properly marked public charging bays. The loan for it is less money than I was spending in petrol alone per month, and there's only 2 years left in that now. Finance-wise, it's a no brainer for us.

We had intended to use our diesel for long journeys like holidays in galway or kerry, but on every one of them we took the EV because it is a far nicer and easier car to drive. It's quiet, non-smelly, quick.

The only downside we have is that we argue over who gets to drive it.

steelboots

pwurple wrote: »

You know, EV's really are starting to suffer from misinformation and a lack of good PR.

Does anyone see a glut of stranded EV's around the roads?

On burning coal for fuel, you can source your electricity whatever way you want. I know people who run their Ev partly from their own solar panels. There are electicity providers available who resell energy generated from particular sources only. https://www.pandapower.ie

We have had our EV for over a year now, with a family of 5 people. Never been stranded or caught without it, never had a negative incident. Enjoyed the fun and ease of driving it, and all the toys like defrosting it remotely and preheating the seats while I have my toast in the mornings.

We live in Cork, so along the with grant, low tax and and the general very low cost of running it, we also had free city parking, free tolls and a very well run local infrastructure with properly marked public charging bays. The loan for it is less money than I was spending in petrol alone per month, and there's only 2 years left in that now. Finance-wise, it's a no brainer for us.

We had intended to use our diesel for long journeys like holidays in galway or kerry, but on every one of them we took the EV because it is a far nicer and easier car to drive. It's quiet, non-smelly, quick.

The only downside we have is that we argue over who gets to drive it.

Couldn't agree more, I'm surprised Nissan and other EV manufacturers are not on radio stations/papers promoting them. However I do think as more and more hit the roads the word will start spreading. e.g. A friend in work is watching me closely to see how I get on and he will buy if all goes well.

Regarding the generation of electricity, over time that will get cleaner with solar farms and wind farms on the increase, and its great to see this reducing the ~€6bn we spend on imported fuel. However I do think micro generation feeding the grid which is no longer available is a missed opportunity. Using solar panels would not work for me as the car is not at home during the day, however if I could sell to the grid during the day and buy back at night at around the same price it would be great.

You have free parking and tolls in Cork ? really !

zilog_jones

steelboots wrote: »

You have free parking and tolls in Cork ? really !

Information here: http://drive4zero.ie

Seesee

zilog_jones wrote: »

Information here: http://drive4zero.ie

What we need in Dublin is the minister for transport currently pascal donohue I think "acting" driving an EV. If one of the EV companies gave him one it would make great sense. His commute to the dail is short too.

zilog_jones

Aren't An Post using some Nissan/Renault EV vans? Any feedback from them?

Why bother ? the taxpayer pays the fuel for the Mercs anyway.

The taxpayer will pay any emissions fines so why bother increasing taxes on ICE ? people will go mental so no Government is going to try and make ICE's more difficult to own/run etc.

They sell it to the Public based on emissions because most people on this island don't care about emissions.

Irish people want an 800 km range diesel to drive the national average of 16 Kms daily. (I got that from the Journal a while back)

BoatMad

zilog_jones wrote: »

I think the government will need to continue incentivizing BEVs in some way. I know the current system of free charging points and free home installations is probably not sustainable, but if they could keep it affordable it would help.

Maybe they should tax cars based on NOx emissions rather than CO2, that would shake up the system

They should commit to making charging points free for at least a further 5 years or until 10% of the car population is electric

BoatMad

pwurple wrote: »

You know, EV's really are starting to suffer from misinformation and a lack of good PR.

Does anyone see a glut of stranded EV's around the roads?

On burning coal for fuel, you can source your electricity whatever way you want. I know people who run their Ev partly from their own solar panels. There are electicity providers available who resell energy generated from particular sources only. https://www.pandapower.ie

We have had our EV for over a year now, with a family of 5 people. Never been stranded or caught without it, never had a negative incident. Enjoyed the fun and ease of driving it, and all the toys like defrosting it remotely and preheating the seats while I have my toast in the mornings.

We live in Cork, so along the with grant, low tax and and the general very low cost of running it, we also had free city parking, free tolls and a very well run local infrastructure with properly marked public charging bays. The loan for it is less money than I was spending in petrol alone per month, and there's only 2 years left in that now. Finance-wise, it's a no brainer for us.

We had intended to use our diesel for long journeys like holidays in galway or kerry, but on every one of them we took the EV because it is a far nicer and easier car to drive. It's quiet, non-smelly, quick.

The only downside we have is that we argue over who gets to drive it.

+1 and an example of the user message that the media need to hear


I have excellent connections in the print media. i think a positive article on owning an EV might be an idea

thierry14

BoatMad wrote: »

+1 and an example of the user message that the media need to hear


I have excellent connections in the print media. i think a positive article on owning an EV might be an idea

You can tell them that you even can't drive an hour at motorway speeds before the battery dies as well 😉

That would be a nice headline for a 30k car 😀

Just kidding

BoatMad

thierry14 wrote: »

You can tell them that you even can't drive an hour at motorway speeds before the battery dies as well 😉

That would be a nice headline for a 30k car 😀

Just kidding

given I can get 120Km at 100km, that over an hour

I can go even further at 90kmph

but you miss the point completely

what you are seeing is the beginning of a revolution , not the end , with 10 years you will see all performance vehicles switch to electric

the 18th century bag o bolts under the bonnet of an ICE is just that , internal combustion is an awful way to generate tractive force.

The magic in ICE is the fuel, the mechanicals are just junk

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why bother ? the taxpayer pays the fuel for the Mercs anyway.

The taxpayer will pay any emissions fines so why bother increasing taxes on ICE ? people will go mental so no Government is going to try and make ICE's more difficult to own/run etc.

They sell it to the Public based on emissions because most people on this island don't care about emissions.

Irish people want an 800 km range diesel to drive the national average of 16 Kms daily. (I got that from the Journal a while back)

I doubt the daily average is 16km but the hats regardless because it's an average and if people are spending 20k + on a vehicle they expect it to get them to its destination even if it's a long journey once a month.

Also there's a carbon levy in fuel so that takes care of emissions levies. Stop talking nonsense and keep to facts

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

I doubt the daily average is 16km but the hats regardless because it's an average and if people are spending 20k + on a vehicle they expect it to get them to its destination even if it's a long journey once a month.

Also there's a carbon levy in fuel so that takes care of emissions levies. Stop talking nonsense and keep to facts

No the carbon Levies are to pay renewable energy companies !

pwurple

thierry14 wrote: »

You can tell them that you even can't drive an hour at motorway speeds before the battery dies as well 😉

Because other cars don't ever refuel? The fairys come and fly the liquid in to them? Lol.

An hour in a juddering diesel sounds like a grim prospect to me after a year in a clean modern car tbh.

pwurple

pwurple wrote: »

Because other cars don't ever refuel? The fairys come and fly the liquid in to them? Lol.

An hour in a juddering diesel sounds like a grim prospect to me after a year in a clean modern car tbh.

Earlier this month we did a 4000 km stint on the Continent. That would have been approx. 20 hours (of charging time) and 40 rapid charges on the 24 kWh Leaf had there been chargers conveniently located on the route (which was not the case). The longest daily stretch we did was 1300 km with one stop for fuel/dinner and two others for lunch and snacks constantly driving at 120 km/h. We also tried to drive at 130 but the sharp drop in the fuel economy and increase in noise of our camper made it impractical. This was driving all day from 9 am until 11 pm btw as we had a tight deadline to meet.

Horses for courses is all I can say. It did feel good to return back to the Leaf afterwards. We did Kildare-Cork on last Sunday and even with the many (6DC+1AC) charging stops it was way more relaxing than the other trip.

To recap: Looking forward doing a cross continent on an EV sometime in the future. About 350 km range at 100/120 km/h would allow this type of trip without any noticable time penalty compared to our camper which would be more than acceptable for me. Even a 250 km range at that speed would be grand I think.

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No the carbon Levies are to pay renewable energy companies !

No there to discourage burning fossil fuel but also cover any charges

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

No there to discourage burning fossil fuel but also cover any charges

I seriously doubt the carbon tax will pay the emissions fines, if we pay them at all that is of course.

slicedpanman

Well here is an article from Engadget (UK) about a Model S trip - that is more encouraging... a long distance covered and very little mention of the (little) time spent supercharging.

http://www.engadget.com/2016/04/13/tesla-model-s-autonomous-drive-uk/

thierry14

BoatMad wrote: »

given I can get 120Km at 100km, that over an hour

I can go even further at 90kmph

but you miss the point completely

what you are seeing is the beginning of a revolution , not the end , with 10 years you will see all performance vehicles switch to electric

the 18th century bag o bolts under the bonnet of an ICE is just that , internal combustion is an awful way to generate tractive force.

The magic in ICE is the fuel, the mechanicals are just junk

I said 1 hour at motorway speeds, 100kmh is for buses.

Your leaf can't do motorway speeds for more than a hour, hard to believe 😉

I will ignore your 90kmh, nothing but a nuisance to other road users at that speed, guardai should be clamping down.

I agree EV's will be great in 10 years, stuff available here besides Tesla are over priced and not up to it.

Motorway rules are 50 kph-120 kph and no vehicles under 50 CC.

100 kph on the motorway is hardly slow. And you can go into the right hand lane and over take if you wish, the difference in time between 100 and 120 kph in reality isn't anything worth talking about because at some point you reach traffic, lights etc.

It's like all the people that pass me driving 140-160 kph on the motorway in the morning racing to be the first to get the the M9/M7 merger queue and then crawl to Dublin from there.

There are plenty of ICE drivers who drive at 80 Kph on the motorway even in non commuter traffic. That's what the overtaking lane is for.

Anyway this trolling is annoying now.

BoatMad

thierry14 wrote: »

I said 1 hour at motorway speeds, 100kmh is for buses.

Your leaf can't do motorway speeds for more than a hour, hard to believe 😉

I will ignore your 90kmh, nothing but a nuisance to other road users at that speed, guardai should be clamping down.

I agree EV's will be great in 10 years, stuff available here besides Tesla are over priced and not up to it.

today , this car is in effect paying for itself in fuel saved between the two of us.

its way way nicer to driver then any ICE of similar dimensions

I never drive over 100kmph in my pickup truck on motorways , as it drinks fuel. so 100kmph is fine for me

The leaf is way faster then stupid diesels of similar size , I press the ECO button and quite franky piss around other cars overtaking

the leaf will do 120km for an hour, I have already said that , in fact I will get about 140 km to zero battery at 120km. ( sometimes a bit more )

as for Tesla not being to to it.... now you're just trolling


When you finally get really pissed off by being continuously out performed by BEVS on the road over the next few years, you'll be in the Q to buy one too.

Just the folks here are way ahead of you at present

thierry14

BoatMad wrote: »

The leaf is way faster then stupid diesels of similar size , I press the ECO button and quite franky piss around other cars overtaking

No it ain't

I have a 12 year old diesel Fabia that would eat your Leaf lol

We have already had this discussion.

Leaf isn't quick

BoatMad

thierry14 wrote: »

No it ain't

I have a 12 year old diesel Fabia that would eat your Leaf lol

We have already had this discussion.

Leaf isn't quick

you cant deploy the acceleration from diesels instantaneously , turbo lag, the peaky tongue curve all mitigate its real on the road performance, then add gear changes and driver lag.

have you driven a Leaf quickly. its a fast car in terms of its deployable acceleration and that all that matters.

I had a friend driving a diesel polo following me today, he's quite an aggressive driver, no way could he overtake with the speed I could . ( and he said so at the end )

electric motors are simply way way better traction systems then any ICE.

its why the Tesla has super car performance from 690hp electrics

Water John

Thierry, lets take this lesson slowly.
Quick and acceleration are two different words with two different meanings.

Don't think you did applied maths.

peposhi

thierry14 wrote: »

No it ain't

I have a 12 year old diesel Fabia that would eat your Leaf lol

We have already had this discussion.

Leaf isn't quick

Not sure if you have mentioned it before - have you actually driven an EV so far? Leaf, Zoe, Fluence, Env200, Tesla, any?

thierry14

Water John wrote: »

Thierry, lets take this lesson slowly.
Quick and acceleration are two different words with two different meanings.

Don't think you did applied maths.

I don't need to

Where will the leaf beat my old fabia for acceleration

30-50km

50 - 100km

0-100km

80 - 120km

?

Fabia has 170bhp, 400nm, 1200kg or so

thierry14

peposhi wrote: »

Not sure if you have mentioned it before - have you actually driven an EV so far? Leaf, Zoe, Fluence, Env200, Tesla, any?

Numbers don't lie

peposhi

thierry14 wrote: »

Numbers don't lie

Volkswagen numbers did not lie too until they got tested

Let's put 300kg in your 1200kg Fabia to match the weight of a Leaf and will see what numbers you'd get.
I bet your 170bhp would would feel more like 70.
On other side if you take 300kg off a Leaf's weight, I bet you'd be the first one to buy one regardless the miserable 107bhp it has.

BoatMad

thierry14 wrote: »

Numbers don't lie

they most certainly do. you have to ascertain the exact process by which they are measured and computed, most have little to do with what actually happens on the real road with a real driver at typical road speeds

Just like the emissions from your diesel , or do you still believe numbers dont lie

I can tell you as a former engine assembly designer, number lie all over the place