Femininity and masculinity- never the twain shall meet?

baby and crumble

Ok, here's a question. What do the words "masculine" and "feminine" mean to you? Do they mean anything? Do the have a relevance at all?

I guess to set out my stall, I'm a woman in my mid-30's who identifies as butch- that is "masculine of centre". So I guess if you think of masculine and feminine as two extremes on the gender scale, with gender neutral being smack bang in the middle, I would consider myself a woman who tends more masculine in some ways.

What does that mean? Well, I look masculine, not because I specifically try, or because I want to look like a man or be a man, but because it's how I feel most comfortable. I don't have any desire to wear a dress or even the more "feminine" versions of gender neutral clothes- I'd always chose a guys tee shirt over a more fitted women's, etc. Don't misunderstand, I love being a woman. I am cisgender in that respect but some of the more typical "feminine" interests and behaviours just seem totally alien to me- like long hair, wearing makeup, etc. But there are some ways where I do seem to fit into what society has developed as "feminine"- I'm super emotional and empathetic, work in the caring profession, etc.

Just wondering, for sh*ts and giggles.

baby and crumble

Goddamn, the title was meant to be "never the twain shall meet" so I'd sound clever. Stupid autocorrect!!!!

One eyed Jack

I never really gave much thought to the whole masculine/feminine thing really until I was chatting to a work colleague one morning who was telling me about her new boyfriend and how they really suit each other because she has a male brain and he has a female brain, so they really work well together. I laughed it off as just another one of our odd conversations, until one evening we were going to a work function and the girl that normally turned up to work in jeans and minimal make up (now she does look very petite and feminine anyway), but she turned up in an LBD that she must have poured herself into, and heels. She didn't look like the same girl at all!

Eventually I copped the boyfriend beside her (well, she interrupted my gaze by introducing him ), and I saw then what she meant alright - his whole demeanor and his "look" was very effeminate. She knew straight away what I was thinking, but thankfully she said nothing, but talking to him and observing how they interacted as a couple it was easy to see what she meant.

There's definitely something deeper going on I think than the whole idea of gender identity, gender roles and stereotypes being merely social constructs. I would be very masculine in how I present myself to others, but in the privacy and comfort of my own home I like nothing better than to chill out with a pair of knitting needles and some classical music in the background (when I'm not listening to Taylor Swift or Beyoncé!).

I don't think it's at all as simple as the male brain/female brain thing. I think human beings are far more complex than labels would really ever allow for tbh. Labels are grand as common identifiers amongst ourselves, to identify where we fit in externally in society, but I think internally, there's probably a whole lot more going on that people generally don't have the ability to articulate themselves to be able to explain beyond what has often been referred to as a gut feeling.

Dial Hard

It's an interesting one. Barbara and Alan Pease did some work (and, in the interests of full disclosure, it's been years since I've read it so I have absolutely no idea how relevant it is now) on male/female brain activity. I always scored waaaaay higher on the "masculine" side of the spectrum on their tests and would have always considered myself a tomboy growing up, etc, but if you saw me you'd laugh at that description. I'm a blue-eyed blonde with hair halfway down my back, 34DD boobs and a 26" waist. I live in heels and I love to show off my figure. But when I'm not in heels I'm in skater jeans, Wonder Woman Converse and a Hufflepuff tee. I love my make-up but I don't need it. Haven't worn any since Saturday.

I often feel like a total anachronism. I don't identify as a girly-girl, but I totally consider myself a feminist. But third/fourth wave feminism tells me that I'm betraying my feminist ideals by considering myself a tomboy. So I have no idea where I fit in, genuinely.

But thankfully, I don't worry about it, the vast majority of the time. I confuse the hell out of men and women both because half the time I look like a Barbie and all of the time I love cooking and the rest of the time I'm giving out about the patriarchy but hey, that's just me. People (of both genders) can like it or lump it. C'est moi.

eviltwin

Never really think about it. I'm cis female but don't identify as either masculine or feminine

IvyTheTerrible

baby and crumble wrote: »

Goddamn, the title was meant to be "never the twain shall meet" so I'd sound clever. Stupid autocorrect!!!!

Fixed that for you!

Milly33

haha baby and crumble sure whats in the spelling!! Twain so brings to mind the poem twa cabbies just a random thought

It is a very good topic actually... To me I think I look feminine enough, I like to have nice nails, and take care of my skin and all that, clothes wise id be all up for trackers and a manshirt..

The whole masculine/feminine side is more for me the brain side of it and how people look at others. It has more to do with how one person see's you..

You have first glances of course where you might be like trying to figure out are they boobs or moobs!! But then when you talk to people your like ah sure they are defo this and that...

Then you have the entire side of how you feel yourself about it, I can say while I am a women I defo have a mans brain and think more like a man than a women... In my head I see man - relaxed/women - drama.....

You can have different kinds of masculine women too like Grace Jones - while she is still feminine she has such strong features and Id say would be very dominant..

Then you have like the some of the body builder women who to me I would think nope that's way to manly..

tis a thinker

baby and crumble

Thanks for the comments guys. It's funny because I don't really ascribe much to the whole "man brain/woman brain" thing. I think gender is a social construct, and some things are just constructed to be thought of as more masculine, which is why I describe myself as more masculine.

I never had an interest in certain "feminine" pursuits (yet did others) when I was young so I grew up feeling really different. Even now, I genuinely get baffled when I see my partners array of makeup. It's like voodoo.

The way I present myself, and how I look, does have an impact on how I'm percieved, too. Like, I never get street harassed (unless it's homophobic which doesn't happen much unless I'm in ladies bathrooms or something), I don't really feel intimidated walking around, or anything like that. It's shocking, sometimes, hearing my more feminine friends stories of what they experience on a daily basis. But then they find it shocking that I could get screamed at in a toilet or a changing room, so it's all about experiences I suppose...

One eyed Jack

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I don't think it's at all as simple as the male brain/female brain thing. I think human beings are far more complex than labels would really ever allow for tbh. Labels are grand as common identifiers amongst ourselves, to identify where we fit in externally in society, but I think internally, there's probably a whole lot more going on that people generally don't have the ability to articulate themselves to be able to explain beyond what has often been referred to as a gut feeling.

I couldn't agree more and I'm living it

My son is transgender, his partner is inter-gender, and through support groups and such, he's met an array of different people at varying points on the gender spectrum and it's fascinating and wonderful to me how they are all so comfortable being non-binary, amongst themselves anyway. When I meet a new person I have to discreetly check later if I've met a "he/she" or a "they" for future reference. :pac:

I only realised when I went looking for a term that there's actually a Gender Wiki!

http://gender.wikia.com/wiki/Non-binary

What I love about them is that they're not denying their societal gender, but as young people they're refusing to fall into either A or B and are supporting each other in finding their identity, whatever the gender may be ... or not! :pac:

Milly33

Well done to you son Jackie brown and you for support him.. Going to take a read through this wiki link..It is very interesting how it all works out...

Shame on people baby and crumble if they shout abuse at you and to annoying people can just be odd..

baby and crumble

Milly33 wrote: »

Shame on people baby and crumble if they shout abuse at you and to annoying people can just be odd..

It's a fear reaction initially, scared that a big man (I'm not small, I'm broad and quite tall) has come into a female space like a bathroom. People don't seem to stop and think "well, if this person is in here, looking at me and all the other women and seems to just want to go about their business, maybe they know what they're doing!". One older lady point blank refused to walk past me holding the door open for her into the ladies bathroom. She freaked and told me I was wrong and sick. I get that it's fear, and I'm very careful now about how I walk into those kinds of spaces, for that reason. It kinda sucks though.

Milly33

I was reading that all wrong there (which brings up another point thinking) wait are you male as such but feminine but nope your female.. Sounds really harsh, the older lady I would get over as they are just set in their ways sometimes and just don't think.. But for women to shout at you for entering the ladies that is just odd..

I was thinking then when I read it wrong what if you were lets say cross gender and using the ladies as a man..

To be honest then I would be kinda thinking well you should be using the mens loo and not the ladies, even if you were cross gender.. Then I suppose it is all in the eye of the beholder, as if you were a very feminine cross gender male, no lady would have a problem with you in the ladies, or a more male female but unfortunately again people are people

baby and crumble

Bathrooms are a really sticky subject. And in many ways the "cross dressing" thing is a bit of a red herring, I think. Most men in particular who cross dress are actually not transgender, so it's not simple, really.

It's why I would love to see gender neutral bathrooms come in a cross the board. It's not just for easing trans or genderqueer folks, think about a son who care's for his Mum and brings her out for tea and there's no disabled bathroom. There's lots of reasons gender neutral bathrooms makes sense, the only argument I can see for gendered bathrooms are urinals, and if it's that big a deal just have a "urinals" room too.

Milly33

So many things to talk about!! really is a big subject.... Sorry for getting bits confused I cannot say I would be too clued into the different terms for all...

Bathrooms would be an odd one to sort out as you say with urinals and this and then there are people who would be worried about kids etc..

I do think they are good ideas for lets say adult orientated places. My experience of them this way is it stops ladies taking so much time in the loos haha... There was a bar in Killarney Scotts I think they had (not sure do they still) communal toilets and they were loverly. Must admit the first time I was like wait a min, then it hit me...

baby and crumble

Milly33 wrote: »

So many things to talk about!! really is a big subject.... Sorry for getting bits confused I cannot say I would be too clued into the different terms for all...

Don't worry about it. Like lots of things, you don't know what you don't know until you know you don't know it.

Milly33 wrote: »

Bathrooms would be an odd one to sort out as you say with urinals and this and then there are people who would be worried about kids etc..

I think again the kids thing is a red herring. If you have a public open public toilets that just have cubicles that everyone is using, then I actually think kids would be safer. No more Mums having to leave their 10 year old sons go into the mens alone, and vice versa. You can both go in at the same time, to cubicle next to each other and everyone is supervised completely.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

I'm a bit all over the place. As a kid I was definitely a tomboy...but I also refused to wear anything but dresses until I was around 9, and then refused to wear dresses at all until I was I guess 14 or so.

I have been mistaken for a man quite a few times if I have my hair under a hat, part of this is that I'm pretty tall and broad-shouldered, but I also am quite masculine in many of my gestures and body language - I'll sit with one leg in Kerry and the other in Cork, tend to lead with my shoulders rather than my hips when I walk. I'm not particularly entranced by make-up and hair stuff, but I'm not someone who feels deeply uncomfortable or 'not myself' when I'm done up, which is something I understand is very common among butch women. As for clothes, wear loads of men's clothes but I have plenty of sparkly dresses too.

There definitely was a time, from mid teens to early twenties, where I identified with men much more than women. Couldn't really understand the social dynamics in a group of women, didn't have any of the same interests, and just found the company of men a lot more comfortable. It's my opinion though that at that age a lot people nearly over-perform their gender, there's so much motivation and competition for sexual attention, and people maybe don't know their own minds yet so they're kind of like 'oooh, the girls that are held up as role models do this, well then I'll do ten times that and be the best girliest girl who ever girled'.

And there's a lot of policing. I got called a man pretty often back then, for drinking cans instead of naggins, listening to hip-hop, not knowing how to do bronzer :rolleyes: adolescence really is when you can see gender being made up to a significant degree of social behaviours and signifiers; if you don't do 'X' then you're not a 'real girl', so being a girl must be made up of things you do. It settles down after a while though, in my late twenties now and have a pretty even ratio of male to female friends.

Anyways, that was very incoherent. If gender is a scale with masculine at one end and feminine at the other, I'd say I'm fairly close to the middle. I'd be attracted to people who are at a similar point as well, a very girly girl or a very macho man is a big turn off.

Milly33

"the best girliest girl who ever girled' Love it, must say I chortled a lot reading that...

It must be very confusing for girls and boys when they a teens, I really feel for kids nowadays there is too much for them as such to compete with.. I think if I ever have kids im moving to the country and just letting them grow at their own rate and figure out who they want to be....

Did they really call you a man! Girls can be mean that way but I get a lot of them are trying to fit in with the girly group as you say.. I remember being classed as not a girly girl either, I was the witch! I liked the makeup (not bronzer of course) and rings and anything that could kill a warewolf while I came across remarks and things I was more shunned for being different and laughed at, which at the time hurt but I can only imagine it would be more hurtfull being called names that take away from you...

Should be another thing brought into schools to educate children more about all issues..

Spot on with Loo issues too OP. Very true if we all go together as such there is less to worry about with kids...

Olishi4

I would say that I am quite feminine in my mannerisms and dress. A couple of weeks ago, my husband and I were meeting up with friends for a few drinks. We haven't been out for a while and I was really looking forward to getting done up. Anyway I chose my outfit and didn't really think much more of it.

When we were out, a friend made a reference to Sandy from Grease about my outfit. We were laughing because my outfit was practically identical to the outfit she wears in the final scene of the movie. I even had my hair curled similar to hers (more modern though )

I guess somewhere in my subconscious it is possible that at some stage I saw that movie and associated it with being feminine and perhaps sexy and wanted to feel that way when I went out. Not for other people, just for myself.

Most masculine and feminine personality traits are not exclusive to gender. For example I know many men who are quite sensitive and women who are physically very strong. And there are lots of other examples. And people are a mixture of all traits

I think somewhere subconsciously as we are growing up, we could make a connection of the personality trait that we feel strongly about at that time to clothing and mannerisms inspired by someone famous or peers or adults around us and eventually it becomes part of who we are as a whole but it doesnt really mean anything because it is our own personal interpretation of the trait we are associating with the clothing. We are just expressing how we first identified the trait to the clothing worn by the person we recognised it in. We feel comfortable when we dress like this because we feel we are expressing those traits and how we feel. For more androgenous people, they may not make a strong connection to clothing and personal traits or they may make different less obvious connections and their clothing and look is kept more neutral to express that.

Obviously some traits that we feel will be stronger than other traits or will feel more at one time and less at another time. Like when someone starts experimenting with makeup, they might want to express gentleness and patience with the delicate application. But another person may feel a stronger relation to practicality or authenticity and sees no need to spend time and money on makeup. It doesnt meant that the person not wearing makeup is not gentle or the person wearing makeup is not practical.

At the time when we are first becoming attracted to other people, we will see interactions between other people like flirting or someone becomes a couple and we will notice the traits that stand out that we relate to most. This might have an impact on how we dress, how we see those people and the traits that stood out to us.

dearg lady

I would say I'm fairly close to the middle of what society considers 'masculine' and 'feminine' well maybe leaning a bit more towards feminine. For most of my life I've tended to get on better with guys (maybe comes from growing up with brothers) but there are some traditionally girly things I like. I do enjoy dressing up occasionally, just my idea of dressing up probably wouldn't involve too much effort, a dress pulled from my wardrobe and some make up. Fancy!

I've been reading up quite a bit on gendering children. It's very hard for parents to get away from, but I do think much of the gendered traits we pick up are societal rather than inate in us.

baby and crumble wrote: »

It's a fear reaction initially, scared that a big man (I'm not small, I'm broad and quite tall) has come into a female space like a bathroom. People don't seem to stop and think "well, if this person is in here, looking at me and all the other women and seems to just want to go about their business, maybe they know what they're doing!". One older lady point blank refused to walk past me holding the door open for her into the ladies bathroom. She freaked and told me I was wrong and sick. I get that it's fear, and I'm very careful now about how I walk into those kinds of spaces, for that reason. It kinda sucks though.

On the bathroom thing, I find it so odd that they are divided in the first place! And that people react so disgustedly to a person of the opposite gender in the toilet... it happens in everyone's gaff and no one freaks out or dies!!

baby and crumble

dearg lady wrote: »

On the bathroom thing, I find it so odd that they are divided in the first place! And that people react so disgustedly to a person of the opposite gender in the toilet... it happens in everyone's gaff and no one freaks out or dies!!

Ostensibly the reason for it is to protect women and children from sexual predators. This makes a number of really horrible and just wrong assumptions:

1) Men cannot be trusted around women or children
2) That sexual assault happens in bathrooms between strangers (you're far more likely to experience this with someone you already know)
3) The panic in the US right now assumes that trans women are actually just men who want access to women's spaces to assault them. There have been zero recorded instances of trans individuals assaulting people in bathrooms, anywhere in the world.
4) Nobody seems to understand the benefits for general society that come with unisex/ gender neutral bathrooms, which I discussed earlier. Just like how making social spaces more accessible
For people with disabilities helps multiple other sectors (wheelchair ramps make it easier for parents with buggies and older people with mobility issues to access them), gender neutral toilets and changing rooms would do the same.

The Masculinist

As a man I love feminine women. I really want a girlie girl.

Some lads are the opposite. Different strokes.

baby and crumble

The Masculinist wrote: »

As a man I love feminine women. I really want a girlie girl.

Some lads are the opposite. Different strokes.

Thing is though this wasn't about feeling attractive to anyone.

One eyed Jack

baby and crumble wrote: »

Ostensibly the reason for it is to protect women and children from sexual predators.

While you make a number of valid points that are true of gender segregated bathrooms, you ignored the fact that many more women object to transgender women using women's bathrooms than men do. I agree with some of the points in your post, but the points you raise would cause me to have some questions of my own.

baby and crumble wrote: »

This makes a number of really horrible and just wrong assumptions:

1) Men cannot be trusted around women or children

The very people arguing for transgender women to be allowed access to women's bathrooms are the very same people who are very quick to point out that statistically, the vast majority of sexual violence against women and children, is committed by men. Someone's contradicting someone, but either way, looking at either side of the argument - they're both arguing that men cannot be trusted around women or children. Otherwise, transgender women wouldn't be arguing that they should have access to women's bathrooms because of the fear of sexual violence from men! It appears that transgender women don't trust men themselves very much either.

baby and crumble wrote: »

2) That sexual assault happens in bathrooms between strangers (you're far more likely to experience this with someone you already know)

That's absolutely true, so it's not really an argument that works in transgender women's favour either. There's absolutely no reason they cannot treat both men's and women's bathrooms as gender neutral already. They could just as easily use the men's bathrooms, as I use the women's bathrooms, often having wandered in and only copping it when I've walked out of the cubicle and there's a woman washing her hands at the sinks. I've never once encountered any hostility from women, more times they either didn't care, or were bemused or amused.

baby and crumble wrote: »

3) The panic in the US right now assumes that trans women are actually just men who want access to women's spaces to assault them. There have been zero recorded instances of trans individuals assaulting people in bathrooms, anywhere in the world.

Also absolutely true. However, the number of instances of sexual violence against transgender women in men's bathrooms measured against sexual violence against men in men's bathrooms, suggests to me at least, that people who advocate for transgender women's access to women's bathrooms for their own safety and comfort, are also engaging in a perpetuating fearmongering that men cannot be trusted. Men themselves are infinitely more likely statistically speaking anyway, to experience sexual violence in men's bathrooms than transgender women are. Knowing that still wouldn't put me off using the men's bathrooms though.

baby and crumble wrote: »

4) Nobody seems to understand the benefits for general society that come with unisex/ gender neutral bathrooms, which I discussed earlier. Just like how making social spaces more accessible for people with disabilities helps multiple other sectors (wheelchair ramps make it easier for parents with buggies and older people with mobility issues to access them), gender neutral toilets and changing rooms would do the same.

I wouldn't think that nobody understands the benefits for general society that some people see as comes with unisex / gender neutral bathrooms. They just don't happen to share those people's perspective, as they don't equate gender neutral bathrooms in the same terms as accessibility for people with mobility issues at all.

Quite frankly IMO, there really isn't an issue, at all. People who are transgender could easily use whichever bathroom they choose and nobody would realistically be any the wiser, and nobody would make a big deal of it - get in, do your business, get out. Simple. But, to me at least, the whole argument for transgender women to use women's bathrooms seems to be more founded not on any gender neutrality or gender equality grounds, but simply grounded in the more obvious fact that some transgender women need to have access to women's bathrooms and changing facilities because they want women to accept them as women.

A mate of mine who I've known as transgender for a number of years now has never appeared to have experienced this issue, and to be perfectly honest, I'd have more chance of passing as a woman than she does. When we go out though, I've never thought to inquire as to whether she uses the women's or the men's bathrooms. We have more interesting things to be talking about than identity politics.

baby and crumble

But trans women are women. Why should there be any argument against them using the ladies bathroom?

One eyed Jack

baby and crumble wrote: »

But trans women are women. Why should there be any argument against them using the ladies bathroom?

The very fact though that you have to preface women with the word 'trans' when referring to trans women suggests that there is a difference between trans women and, well, women!

The argument against trans women using women's bathrooms, is the same argument trans women use themselves - women are concerned for their own safety and comfort as much as trans women are concerned for their safety and comfort.

Now of course you could present all the statistics you like, but at an individual level, statistics are utterly useless to overcoming individuals prejuduces. Have you ever known anyone with deeply held prejudices to have those prejudices overcome by statistics?

That's a genuine question btw, because I haven't. I've only ever known individual's deeply held prejudices to be overcome through experiences, and if they have no experience upon which their judgement could be changed, you aren't likely to fare any better in alleviating their discomfort, with statistics. People generally don't do logic and reason very well, because they are abstract and intangible concepts. They're generally more likely to base their judgement on personal experience, and if they have none, they're more generally given to fearing the worst, than thinking what's the worst that could happen.