Irish Racing Cyclists abusing Gardai

Shedite27

Any anecdotes of the type of abuse they're receiving?

SAFETY MESSAGE TO CYCLISTS

NB: I do see that it's posted 1st April, but assume it's not a windup

zurbfoundation

"Such behavior is appalling and causing irreparable damage for the Irish Cycling community at a time when the majority of the public want events banned off Irish roads."

How did CI come to this conclusion?

07Lapierre

Does it matter? Racing on open roads is under threat! Every rider should remember that races happen because of the good will/ cooperation of the local residents and the Gardai. They deserve some respect, not abuse.

dragratchet

Like many, Ive been in races where the bunch have been across the road, sometimes in front of the gardai but ive never witnessed a garda taking any flak for trying to enforce the rotr, tbh id be shocked to hear it, you would want to one ignorant racer to blatantly abuse the very people who can give us the thumbs up/down on future events.

Andalucia

It doesn't mention what category, but I'd suggest its A4 owing to race sizes

from what I witnessed at a race yesterday, its only a matter of time before someone is killed in one of these Sunday races - if you can't stay within the white line, you should be disqualified for the season - 4 foot over the white line on open roads and expecting on going traffic to pull in for you is not on

CramCycle

Indeed, it's a pity the AGS didn't get the numbers and report it to the comms. A year off from road racing might calm their nerves. Or if there is a fine for abusing members of the AGS on top of that.

I hope it's an april fools but hardly. It does show how the few can ruin it for the majority.

ford2600

CramCycle wrote: »

It does show how the few can ruin it for the majority.

I recently had my first as a race marshall, I know nothing about racing and didn't know what to expect from field; from across all categories the bike handling, complying with rotr was really good. FFS a few lads even thanked me as they passed.

Of course like Tayto, there is always one; A1/A2, A3/Junior, A4 and ladies had gone through and I was expecting the A1/A2's back in about 15 mins when I saw this lad coming towards me( I thought he was out for a spin he was at least 10 mins behind last A4) when he starts shouting "which way, which way FFS". "Back to the drawing board" was on the tip of my tongue but I suppose the lad was having a bad day so i just said "left".

As an aside the amount of work ordinary lads and lasses on committe have to do to organise a race is staggering, it opened my eyes for sure.

ThisRegard

Surely if gardai are being abused they can take direct action there and then themselves?

stecleary

ThisRegard wrote: »

Surely if gardai are being abused they can take direct action there and then themselves?

A clubmate said he saw what he thinks may be the incident mentioned in the letter from CI, A2 bunch on a corner, Garda asked them to keep left and some smart arse shouted obscenities back at him knowing he couldn't be picked out.

If lads like want to keep pushing their luck I can see other riders logging complains against a race number to try protect what races are still allowed happen

Andalucia

ford2600 wrote: »

I recently had my first as a race marshall, I know nothing about racing and didn't know what to expect from field; from across all categories the bike handling, complying with rotr was really good. FFS a few lads even thanked me as they passed.

Of course like Tayto, there is always one; A1/A2, A3/Junior, A4 and ladies had gone through and I was expecting the A1/A2's back in about 15 mins when I saw this lad coming towards me( I thought he was out for a spin he was at least 10 mins behind last A4) when he starts shouting "which way, which way FFS". "Back to the drawing board" was on the tip of my tongue but I suppose the lad was having a bad day so i just said "left".

As an aside the amount of work ordinary lads and lasses on committe have to do to organise a race is staggering, it opened my eyes for sure.

I would have deliberately sent him the wrong way, no time for that - bad manners, if people like yourself do not volunteer there would be no races

calistro

Just a wild guess but as the story was accompanied by a picture of the Gorey 3 Day it reminded me of an incident at the start of stage 1.
Pulling out from Blessington under a neutralized start there was a guard on the right hand side of the road at a small junction with a car's bonnet just jutting out onto the road. The guard was pleading/roaring (to be heard) for lads to keep to their left, next thing I heard was a lad shouting back at him, not sure what was said exactly but it included a couple of F##ks, the guard was livid (rightly so IMO) and was roaring back at the lad about being there to keep us safe. Possibly took it further and made a complaint.

I was disgusted with it to be honest and mentioned it to a few club mates that evening. Some seemed to think it was just heat of the moment stuff, maybe in the middle of a race but not in a neutralized start.

07Lapierre

calistro wrote: »

Just a wild guess but as the story was accompanied by a picture of the Gorey 3 Day it reminded me of an incident at the start of stage 1.
Pulling out from Blessington under a neutralized start there was a guard on the right hand side of the road at a small junction with a car's bonnet just jutting out onto the road. The guard was pleading/roaring (to be heard) for lads to keep to their left, next thing I heard was a lad shouting back at him, not sure what was said exactly but it included a couple of F##ks, the guard was livid (rightly so IMO) and was roaring back at the lad about being there to keep us safe. Possibly took it further and made a complaint.

I was disgusted with it to be honest and mentioned it to a few club mates that evening. Some seemed to think it was just heat of the moment stuff, maybe in the middle of a race but not in a neutralized start.

If the rider can be identified, he should be reported to CI and his licence revoked for 2016... Or if he's a member of a club, the club should be fined! After all, any rider shouting abuse at a guard reflects badly on everyone, including his club!

calistro

All a blur now but if I could identify the club or rider I'd have no hesitation.

zurbfoundation

07Lapierre wrote: »

Does it matter?

erm..... yes - claiming most of the country's population are not in favour of open road racing seems to be a groundless claim to sensationalize the problem being highlighted here. As others have pointed out, investigate the issue and you will find its areas/clubs/riders in a minority that are responsible - weed them out, deal with them - I've been in and about racing for over 25 years - like most here I find these reports (verbals towards AGS) surprising as I have never seen it before.

Wishbone Ash

ford2600 wrote: »

.... he was at least 10 mins behind last A4) when he starts shouting "which way, which way FFS".....

I was marshaling a time trial last year when a rider returned and gave me a bit of lip for not alerting him that he had taken a wrong turn. Leaving aside the fact that a competitor is responsible for knowing the route (which in this case didn't have any turns), a lot of other riders had taken a similar turn during warm-up and I assumed he was also warming up.

ednwireland

yellow and red card no appeals if the commissar decides to card you a month minimum off racing for a red card.
no excuses for any racer to abuse marshalls race organisers or gardai

JK.BMC

calistro wrote: »

Just a wild guess but as the story was accompanied by a picture of the Gorey 3 Day it reminded me of an incident at the start of stage 1.
Pulling out from Blessington under a neutralized start there was a guard on the right hand side of the road at a small junction with a car's bonnet just jutting out onto the road. The guard was pleading/roaring (to be heard) for lads to keep to their left, next thing I heard was a lad shouting back at him, not sure what was said exactly but it included a couple of F##ks, the guard was livid (rightly so IMO) and was roaring back at the lad about being there to keep us safe. Possibly took it further and made a complaint.

I was disgusted with it to be honest and mentioned it to a few club mates that evening. Some seemed to think it was just heat of the moment stuff, maybe in the middle of a race but not in a neutralized start.

Saw/Heard the very same thing; the guard sounded like he was under a lot of pressure, way more than usual as traffic was stopped and we were just crawling out from the start @15kmh. So for riders to be abusing him is way way out of order.

ht9zni1gs28crp

No excuse, the ****tards should be thrown out and made an example of......

That and littering, which incidentally the A4 bunch were quite adept at last Sunday.

CramCycle

ednwireland wrote: »

yellow and red card no appeals if the commissar decides to card you a month minimum off racing for a red card.
no excuses for any racer to abuse marshalls race organisers or gardai

I would say if you get to a red card, a year off, and I mean the whole 12 months (ie not just the end of season), should be the punishment.

MajorMax

Quick question. I see these races on the road where I live and I have seen marshals trying to direct traffic including directing traffic to yield to at a roundabout to cyclists entering the roundabout from the left when the cars have the right of way

I thought only Guards and road workers had the authority to direct traffic. What would happen if a motorist didn't obey the directions of a steward and hit a cyclist on a roundabout?

Plastik

MajorMax wrote: »

Quick question. I see these races on the road where I live and I have seen marshals trying to direct traffic including directing traffic to yield to at a roundabout to cyclists entering the roundabout from the left when the cars have the right of way

I thought only Guards and road workers had the authority to direct traffic. What would happen if a motorist didn't obey the directions of a steward and hit a cyclist on a roundabout?

Marshals have no power to stop traffic. What they are meant to do is put out a hand to ask them to yield, advise them that there is a race coming through and ask if they would mind waiting just a few minutes. After that there is nothing they are allowed to do. If the motorist wants to willfully ignore them and proceed, they can.

As to the second point you raised, the rules of the road apply. It depends on who was on the roundabout first. In theory it could be a little more nuanced I suppose and maybe a valid argument could be made that the lead cyclist to the last cyclist is one entity when moving together in the same way that a large truck/trailer is. You wouldn't simply drive into the side of the truck because it was slow moving just because you had right of way on a roundabout. That's pure speculation on my part, I don't know if that argument has ever been made or would hold up. No idea.

I'd question why any motorist would ignore a marshal asking them to wait though. In the vast majority of cases they are stopped for a minute or less, it's not a big ask to ensure the safety of everyone. Riders don't want to get injured, drivers don't want to be involved with any accidents their fault or not, no one wants any damage to skin, bikes, cars.

Beasty

MajorMax wrote: »

Quick question. I see these races on the road where I live and I have seen marshals trying to direct traffic including directing traffic to yield to at a roundabout to cyclists entering the roundabout from the left when the cars have the right of way

I thought only Guards and road workers had the authority to direct traffic. What would happen if a motorist didn't obey the directions of a steward and hit a cyclist on a roundabout?

Marshals have no power to stop or direct traffic. They should simply be requesting co-operation from motorists.

Normal road traffic legislation is not suspended unless the roads are closed and in the event of an accident you need to consider the specific circumstances to determine fault/blame

Leroy42

I certainly agree that this doesn't reflect well on the sport and there is no justification or excuse for it, but are we not getting a bit indignant here.

People want a 12 month ban for people shouting at a garda or a marshall? So in line with some doping offences?

Garda get abused daily, it is part of the job and comes when you have overbearing power. In all walks of life there are Ar5eholes, but this implied threat by the Garda should be called out for what it is, nothing more than a bias against cycling.

Are they going to demand that all drivers be banned because a few curse at them when stopped.

What about banning all alcohol since I am sure they come under far more abuse when dealing with Paddy's day crap in Temple bar.

What about banning all future political demos as I'm sure they come under some abuse at them.

I think putting the notice up on the CI website is a mistake, as it gives the media the excuse to portray this as a serious problem with cycling races, rather than a problem with some individuals who happen to cycle.

CramCycle

MajorMax wrote: »

I thought only Guards and road workers had the authority to direct traffic. What would happen if a motorist didn't obey the directions of a steward and hit a cyclist on a roundabout?

Farmers can also do this while moving animals on a roadway.

MajorMax

Plastik wrote: »

Marshals have no power to stop traffic. What they are meant to do is put out a hand to ask them to yeild, advise them that there is a race coming through and ask if they would mind waiting just a few minutes. After that there is nothing they are allowed to do. If the motorist wants to willfully ignore them and proceed, they can.

As to the second point you raised, the rules of the road apply. It depends on who was on the roundabout first. In theory it could be a little more nuanced I suppose and maybe a valid argument could be made that the lead cyclist to the last cyclist is one entity when moving together in the same way that a large truck/trailer is. You wouldn't simply drive into the side of the truck because it was slow moving just because you had right of way on a roundabout. That's pure speculation on my part, I don't know if that argument has ever been made or would hold up. No idea.

Thanks for the reply. That's what I thought, I never mind yielding to cyclists as I like to see people enjoy themselves, but with the aggression and impatience of the average driver that I see on my daily commute, it's something I was wondering about

discus

Thought I would throw in my perspective from the south west of the UK, there are lessons that need to be learned quick in Ireland.

I've done marshalling here in the UK for quite a bit, and let me tell you it's ridiculous. It's got to the stage where there are minimal marshalls, and more paid staff - because no one wants to marshall for free. This is all down to the cyclists being absolute bullies on the road, knowing that no one wants to run them down... resulting in the staff at the side of the road being faced with confrontational road users who pull over to blow off steam. I'm not doing it anymore - can't be arsed taking the ****, even at a tenner an hour, mileage, expenses and hotel paid for. Every race brief I've witnessed involves the stark reminder that 'the license was only just granted this year, no abusing marshalls/public, do not ignore police instructions'. There was a race in Devon last year where the police actually chased down a cyclist during a race for something. The actions of some guys really riles up the public. Some of you here may even have been at a race last year near portsmouth, where the locals poured oil on the road the morning of the race, and ripped down all the signage. That race is unlikely to be going ahead next year.

07Lapierre

CramCycle wrote: »

Farmers can also do this while moving animals on a roadway.

And don't forget Lollipop (Traffic Wardens) Ladies!

Wishbone Ash

Now the Indo are running with it!

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/cycling/cyclists-warned-appalling-behaviour-towards-gardai-could-affect-future-of-sport-34600256.html

ThisRegard

CramCycle wrote: »

Farmers can also do this while moving animals on a roadway.

As to can school wardens, it's a points offence to ignore the warden stop sign. You must also stop for someone on or with a horse if needed, but I'm not sure if they can direct you to stop as opposed to the driver using their own judgement.

The Indo online are now running with the story, there goes the neighbourhood. (edit, snap Wishbone Ash, it took me too long typing this post)

Leroy42

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Now the Indo are running with it!

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/cycling/cyclists-warned-appalling-behaviour-towards-gardai-could-affect-future-of-sport-34600256.html

AS I said, putting it up on the CI website is a mistake as it gives a wider audience to the issue and will only lead to negative impact.

Why put it on the website? Surely this is something that could have been communicated directly to members, either via e-mail or through clubs.

Instruct all upcoming races to announce stricker rules from now on.

What other sports body would take such a lazy, half-assed approach which will do little to actually tackle the problem but will inevitably lead to negative reporting across the wider media.

I wonder how that conversation went.

CImember1 - "Are we still having problems with Garda and CoCO's threatening to refuse races?"
CIMember2 - "We sure are, seems the public sides with the authorities on this, we certainly have an image problem"
CIMember1 - "Hey I know, lets send out a general press release, vague to the point of pointlessness, to portray racing cyclists are aggressive, anti-establishment, rule breaking arrogant wanabees with no respect for anyone but themselves.
CIMember2 - "You are a genius."

Tenzor07

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Now the Indo are running with it!

The comments section is already full of anti-cyclist vitriol! Wonder will it make it into the Journo.ie!

Vincenzo Nibbly

Oh ffs - What a massive own goal

CramCycle

Leroy42 wrote: »

I certainly agree that this doesn't reflect well on the sport and there is no justification or excuse for it, but are we not getting a bit indignant here.

People want a 12 month ban for people shouting at a garda or a marshall? So in line with some doping offences?

I wouldn't say indignant, there are a few riders who are asking for it IMO. The doping offence bans are too low but that's little or nothing to do with this. I think there are several sports where such behaviour should not be tolerated, not just cycling.

I think putting the notice up on the CI website is a mistake, as it gives the media the excuse to portray this as a serious problem with cycling races, rather than a problem with some individuals who happen to cycle.

Same here, it was poorly worded and lacked clarity and only serves to go against CI and it's members. There are a thousand ways this could have been done with more impact and less damage done.

I presume the author Denise was scouring boards for a sensationalist story about nothing based on the timing of this thread and the timing of the indo article.

Roadhawk

tut tut, it was only a matter of time. Its unfortunate that one member of AGS can cause so much hype within the media.

ht9zni1gs28crp

There is only one thing for it so, media the hell out of every single good deed done between cyclist, local resident and motorist!

Roadhawk

miller_63 wrote: »

There is only one thing for it so, media the hell out of every single good deed done between cyclist, local resident and motorist!

Well this incident is directly related to cycling as a sport so maybe they can "media the hell" out of motor racing and Marathons but sure they do that anyway.

CramCycle

miller_63 wrote: »

There is only one thing for it so, media the hell out of every single good deed done between cyclist, local resident and motorist!

A puppy got loose from someone yesterday and nearly got hit by several cars. I chased it down in the hopes of returning it to its owner. It ran into a field but I am very much of the opinion that the thought and physical effort counted alot.

I also chased a car down whose rear view mirror had fallen off in traffic. They hadn't noticed, so I thought that was also nice.

zurbfoundation

Lads don't be so naive - do ye think that open road racing in this country will be ended because a Garda was told to P!ss off? Have ye ever been to a League of Ireland football match, Munster Hurling championship match, Leinster Football Championship match, International Rugby, have ye been in town after dark with a few pints on board, at a water protest etc, etc - unfortunately the Gardaí hear this guff all the time

Its not a cycling problem, its a societal issue - the country is full of dirtbags, why do you think that some wouldn't get on a bike a race at some stage?

07Lapierre

zurbfoundation wrote: »

Lads don't be so naive - do ye think that open road racing in this country will be ended because a Garda was told to P!ss off? Have ye ever been to a League of Ireland football match, Munster Hurling championship match, Leinster Football Championship match, International Rugby, have ye been in town after dark with a few pints on board, at a water protest etc, etc - unfortunately the Gardaí hear this guff all the time

Its not a cycling problem, its a societal issue - the country is full of dirtbags, why do you think that some wouldn't get on a bike a race at some stage?

Do you organise many races yourself or just race?

ericzeking

Just WRT the Gorey altercation, which I also have a vague recollection of, wasn't the guard in question in a particularly awkward position to the point being hazardous? I think he was causing an unnecessary pinch point and looked very uncomfortable doing what he was doing? I could be wrong.

That's not the excuse the bad language.

The Garda and marshalling support on Gorey as a whole was outstanding. The Guards helping out on the motos are brilliant, the bring great authority to a race and add to the safety immensely.

Raam

The indo might do well to run with this: http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/airlifted-from-gorey-crash-maddock-says-rival-cyclist-saved-his-life/

Doc07

Raam wrote: »

The indo might do well to run with this: http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/airlifted-from-gorey-crash-maddock-says-rival-cyclist-saved-his-life/

They unfortunately won't run this unless it's a slow news day. Irish journalism has long lost it's soul.

In 16 busy years as a Med student/porter/Doctor, few things have impressed me as much as the cyclist/paramedics actions at that race. Glad the other cyclist's injuries were not too severe.

Cycling Ireland should give an award to Eoghan Connolly.

Raam

Doc07 wrote: »

They unfortunately won't run this unless it's a slow news day. Irish journalism has long lost it's soul.

In 16 busy years as a Med student/porter/Doctor, few things have impressed me as much as the cyclist/paramedics actions at that race. Glad the other cyclist's injuries were not too severe.

Cycling Ireland should give an award to Eoghan Connolly.

Eoghan is a legend. I once got stood up for a spin meet-up cos he was busy treating someone who got in an RTA which he passed on his way to meet me.

doozerie

Leroy42 wrote: »

Garda get abused daily, it is part of the job and comes when you have overbearing power. In all walks of life there are Ar5eholes, but this implied threat by the Garda should be called out for what it is, nothing more than a bias against cycling.

I expect that being a Garda is often a thankless task, it's made even more thankless by getting abuse for doing their job.

And it has to be remembered that their job during a bike race is to try keep everyone safe, both cyclists and other road users. Personally I like to see them helping at races as motorists in particular are more likely to stop/etc. when a Garda tells them to than when a marshall asks them to.

I don't know how difficult it is to organise a Garda presence at bike races but I'm pretty sure it's not easy. The actions of a few could make that harder still. And if there is no agreed Garda presence at some races that may mean those races won't happen. Several reasons there why us cyclists should be well motivated to not act the bollix towards them.

Good point about it perhaps being a mistake on the part of CI in posting this on their website. Personally I see this as another example of CI demonstrating that they themselves have no teeth. I've been in races which have been stopped due to the actions of some riders, but then restarted with those riders still present. In other races I've heard CI representatives threaten over and over to pull someone out of a race but never actually did so.

If CI let riders routinely get away some of the all too common stupid/dangerous antics during races they can hardly be surprised that some riders push the boundaries further still by acting like arses towards a Garda. If CI want a solution to the latter maybe they should start with tackling the former.

ednwireland

Garda are difficult to get even at big events. Normally they only commit to be there if there isn't an emergency call (obvious really).
So you need to organise without them and hope they turn up.

laraghrider

First off I think any abuse to anyone helping out at a race be they marshal or garda is absolutely appalling. That said some of the bans people are looking for are a touch harsh no? We've seen riders ejected from races (pro level) for physically assaulting other riders during the race. Did nobody call for lifetime bans or even year long bans for those guys? Surely that's worse?

stecleary

Doc07 wrote: »

Cycling Ireland should give an award to Eoghan Connolly.

Anyone that knows Eoghan would also know this is nothing out of the ordinary for him, He pulls out of countless races to look after others, He'd do it again today with out missing a heartbeat.
He recently ran a first aid course for our club, I went along as a refresher and was blown away by how simple yet very detailed he made it.
Legend of a man
(really its his way of sandbagging so he wont be moved up cats:eek:)

CramCycle

I am not saying give it straight away. I am saying fair warning. Introduce it from the start of next season. Yellow card and a warning, with a record kept for the first report of it, or even the first two. Then a red card.

Forgetting the manners and decency element of it, and as we have seen what can happen if you piss off one person in the wrong position. If a rider can't learn from simple instructions, then not learn from an error that is pointed out and so on, then they are not the type of rider I would trust in a bunch. Neither should CI and neither should any other rider here.

I don't care about what they do about pro level riders, I care about the races I turn upto marshall or race.

This said it is rare, I can only call two issues while marshalling where I got abuse, both were forgivable, albeit uncalled for if either were listening to the safety talk prior to the race.

All My Stars Aligned

Raam wrote: »

The indo might do well to run with this: http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/airlifted-from-gorey-crash-maddock-says-rival-cyclist-saved-his-life/

Absolutely agree with you Raam but I guess the issue that this article relates to isn't the treatment towards other cyclists but towards the Garda.

laraghrider wrote: »

First off I think any abuse to anyone helping out at a race be they marshal or garda is absolutely appalling. That said some of the bans people are looking for are a touch harsh no? We've seen riders ejected from races (pro level) for physically assaulting other riders during the race. Did nobody call for lifetime bans or even year long bans for those guys? Surely that's worse?

I think the difference here is that these type of actions amongst the pros does not put the future of further races in jeopardy while perhaps it will if it continues amongst the Sunday racers.

bikenut74

ford2600 wrote: »

I recently had my first as a race marshall, I know nothing about racing and didn't know what to expect from field; from across all categories the bike handling, complying with rotr was really good. FFS a few lads even thanked me as they passed.

Of course like Tayto, there is always one; A1/A2, A3/Junior, A4 and ladies had gone through and I was expecting the A1/A2's back in about 15 mins when I saw this lad coming towards me( I thought he was out for a spin he was at least 10 mins behind last A4) when he starts shouting "which way, which way FFS". "Back to the drawing board" was on the tip of my tongue but I suppose the lad was having a bad day so i just said "left".

As an aside the amount of work ordinary lads and lasses on committe have to do to organise a race is staggering, it opened my eyes for sure.

I saw an incident exactly like this in Rathdowney last week and what made it worse was the fact it was the second lap and the said "no hoper" had already been through the junction, while asleep obviously

manwithaplan

calistro wrote: »

Just a wild guess but as the story was accompanied by a picture of the Gorey 3 Day it reminded me of an incident at the start of stage 1.
Pulling out from Blessington under a neutralized start there was a guard on the right hand side of the road at a small junction with a car's bonnet just jutting out onto the road. The guard was pleading/roaring (to be heard) for lads to keep to their left, next thing I heard was a lad shouting back at him, not sure what was said exactly but it included a couple of F##ks, the guard was livid (rightly so IMO) and was roaring back at the lad about being there to keep us safe. Possibly took it further and made a complaint.

I was disgusted with it to be honest and mentioned it to a few club mates that evening. Some seemed to think it was just heat of the moment stuff, maybe in the middle of a race but not in a neutralized start.

I am the clubmate mentioned by stecleary and that's the incident I saw alright. Usually Gardaí assisting at races are on motorbikes but this just seemed to be a local guard pressed into service to help to get the race out of Blessington. He was on foot and wasn't following the race. There tends to be a lot of nervous excitement on the first day of a stage race (think that applies in pro races too) but being wound a bit tightly is no excuse for giving abuse to someone who is keeping you safe. I didn't get the number/club either. People just need to relax a bit - this applies to racers as well as all road users.

And yes - Mr Connolly is some man - he pulled out of our club sportive a few years ago to attend at the scene of a very serious RTA we came across. I was just standing there like a tool!