Corrupt Irish politicians need to think bigger

The Rape of Lucretia

South African president Jacob Zuma spent €15m of public money 'upgrading' his personal property.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/africa/jacob-zuma-denies-dishonesty-over-spending-on-s-africa-home-1.2595572

So far so politician.

But you have to admire his grand scale thinking. (Michael Lowry might be getting ideas).

"A report in 2014 identified a swimming pool, cattle enclosure, chicken run, amphitheatre and visitor centre as upgrades to the compound that were not related to security."

A what !?!!?

Liberosis

He'll "pay back some of the money" WTF!?

seamus

A good example of why Irish commentators need to avoid hyperbole when describing Irish politics as "rotten to the core".

There's the under-the-radar nod and wink stuff that happens in Ireland and then there's real mafia-style corruption on another level like this stuff in SA.

keeponhurling

Isn't that similar to what Lowry did?

For all we know Zumu could have learned from Lowry

AnonoBoy

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

A what !?!!?

AN AMPHITHEATRE....!

DO YOU HAVE YOUR HEARING AID TURNED ON?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphitheatre

Fleawuss

An amphitheater. Christ they should recall every dvd of Gladiator in South Africa. But then there's the inter web...

TerrorFirmer

I often wonder in cases like this, how exactly do they syphon off the funding? South Africa is a developed country - what paperwork had to be pushed through for this to happen?

Hande hoche!

keeponhurling wrote: »

Isn't that similar to what Lowry did?

For all we know Zumu could have learned from Lowry

Expect the ANC to win as decisively in the next election.

CrabRevolution

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

I often wonder in cases like this, how exactly do they syphon off the funding? South Africa is a developed country - what paperwork had to be pushed through for this to happen?

I wonder the same about corruption in general. Especially things like cronyism or nepotism.

Say in RTE or the likes, at a board meeting they mention they need a new manager or producer. Does someone pipe up and say "my nephew will do that, no need to hold any recruiting" And that's it he gets hired?

Or do they pretend to run a normal recruitment process but HR are instructed by senior management to ignore their own work and hire said relative regardless of who applies?

doolox

I have first hand experience of this in another area and sector of the economy but the Irish system is to go through the motions but then hire the favourite relation. Even better if he/she is related on the mothers side of the family or has avery common name. Often Surnames are rendered in Irish to avoid connections being made too easily.

At least a dozen of my cousins and all three sisters got their start in life through family connections. I got my second job through enquiries made at the college I was studying in and my first job was with my fathers business. My second job was "all my own work" but the experience I gained in my fathers business, and not being unemployed, helped a lot. It gave me subject matter to discuss at interview.

My eldest daughter got her jobs through her own work and networking non related people and keeping tabs on who was who in her chosen field, an entirely different thing to nepotism as she had to be qualified and be best able to do the work in question.

While nepotism happens in Ireland it is best to keep the head down and say nothing that may lead to bringing trouble onto oneself as being seen as a "dissaffected troublemaker" if you raise a complaint about nepotism. Journalists are well positioned, well paid and well protected to be able to investigate and stir up things rather than have ordinary people in lower ranks getting fired by doing so.

micosoft

I think it's important to say that Ireland is 18th out of 168 in the world in Transparency Internationals Corruption Perceptions index. Note the use of the word "perceptions" which plays a huge part of this survey - it's taking account what people think as well as factual reporting on the ground (to eliminate the old - but what about the hidden corruption which occurs in Ireland, despite of course, the fact that happens elsewhere as well).

TBH I think this is an excellent figure. I've worked globally and I've never been in a situation with a state agent in Ireland where there was even a hint of bribery.

Most of the perception of corruption has been driven entirely by the political structure and culture of this country...

1. A "what's in it for me or why me" cultural attitude in this country. In most countries if planning permission is denied or a fine given or a medical card sought because of the "rules" that's the end of it. The Irish have an odd view of their relationship with institutions and politicians that means rules are for somebody else. The corrupt nature of large parts of the Irish Electorate is a critical part of this. If you have a corrupt electorate you can hardly expect clean politicians. An example of this is discretionary medical cards. In every other country there is a rule book based on medical need. In Ireland we know have a corrupt system where you can get a medical card based on who you know and lobby for it. Yet this is viewed as a success by many of the electorate.

2. Our electoral system gives disproportionate voice to small groups or even families to the extent our politicians are hostage to ridiculous demands which they must accede to in order to keep their job.

3. The size of the country where everybody knows everybody and the over representation of peoples personal interests makes it challenging to have that level of separation that makes it easier to be immune to influence unlike the UK, Germany etc. This leads to the golden circles claim which is true to an extend but other small countries have the same problem e.g. Norway. As part of the EU we need to be open to greater talent from overseas but thats tough as we underpay too much to attract international talent. So you get the claim that Tierney was incompetent yet the role paid less then half of the UK equivalent and we are surprised there was no competition other then the limited pool of Irish candidates.

Ultimately Ireland is a surprisingly un-corrupt country despite the best efforts of a significant group of people and the culture of me-feinism in this country.

At the end of the day as long as the good people of North Tipp for example continue to vote for a convicted corrupt politican you have to ask who is corrupt - the politician or the people who elect them.

Liberosis

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

I often wonder in cases like this, how exactly do they syphon off the funding? South Africa is a developed country - what paperwork had to be pushed through for this to happen?

He's creating jobs in the construction industry. :P

CrabRevolution

micosoft wrote: »

I think it's important to say that Ireland is 18th out of 168 in the world in Transparency Internationals Corruption Perceptions index. Note the use of the word "perceptions" which plays a huge part of this survey - it's taking account what people think as well as factual reporting on the ground (to eliminate the old - but what about the hidden corruption which occurs in Ireland, despite of course, the fact that happens elsewhere as well).

TBH I think this is an excellent figure. I've worked globally and I've never been in a situation with a state agent in Ireland where there was even a hint of bribery.

Most of the perception of corruption has been driven entirely by the political structure and culture of this country...

1. A "what's in it for me or why me" cultural attitude in this country. In most countries if planning permission is denied or a fine given or a medical card sought because of the "rules" that's the end of it. The Irish have an odd view of their relationship with institutions and politicians that means rules are for somebody else. The corrupt nature of large parts of the Irish Electorate is a critical part of this. If you have a corrupt electorate you can hardly expect clean politicians. An example of this is discretionary medical cards. In every other country there is a rule book based on medical need. In Ireland we know have a corrupt system where you can get a medical card based on who you know and lobby for it. Yet this is viewed as a success by many of the electorate.

2. Our electoral system gives disproportionate voice to small groups or even families to the extent our politicians are hostage to ridiculous demands which they must accede to in order to keep their job.

3. The size of the country where everybody knows everybody and the over representation of peoples personal interests makes it challenging to have that level of separation that makes it easier to to immune to influence unlike the UK, Germany etc.

Ultimately Ireland is a surprisingly un-corrupt country despite the best efforts of a significant group of people and the culture of me-feinism in this country.

At the end of the day as long as the good people of North Tipp for example continue to vote for a convicted corrupt politican you have to ask who is corrupt - the politician or the people who elect them.

I think deep down, people are well aware that we in Ireland experience a degree of safety, freedom and prosperity that the majority of the world can only dream of.

We just love a good moan so we get hyperbole about "third world health system" "must corrupt country on earth", "RTE propaganda", "banana republic".

Del2005

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

I often wonder in cases like this, how exactly do they syphon off the funding? South Africa is a developed country - what paperwork had to be pushed through for this to happen?

Zimbabwe was a developed country till a corrupt president crippled it. Putting your lackeys in positions of power helps.

micosoft

CrabRevolution wrote: »

I wonder the same about corruption in general. Especially things like cronyism or nepotism.

Say in RTE or the likes, at a board meeting they mention they need a new manager or producer. Does someone pipe up and say "my nephew will do that, no need to hold any recruiting" And that's it he gets hired?

Or do they pretend to run a normal recruitment process but HR are instructed by senior management to ignore their own work and hire said relative regardless of who applies?

No. That's really not how it works. Ireland has a World Class and independent Public Appointments Commission. This is well publicized and well known. We have one of the, if not, the most transparent and fair public appointments system in the world. It's really disappointing when people rehash this stuff.

With regard to Zuma, this is not curruption. That would suggest Zuma is taking a decision that will enrich somebody else in return for payment. Given that the person being enriched here IS Zuma this is simple Fraud. Anyway this is the penny pot end of fraud. Zuma's biggest fraud is through South African Airways where we are talking real money (500m+), sexual affairs, global money networks etc. And the problem is that this is being done in the full glare of the world. We all know this!

The actual issue is that the legacy of Mandela is a dysfunctional One Party political system in SA which means despite all the above there is no possibility of impeaching Zuma. I said this at the time of independence to a South African ANC member visiting Ireland - the ANC needed to break into two factions to provide an opposition MUCH like what happened in Ireland (albeit through a civil war). Strangely in this country people denigrate FF/FG as being the same party and "they should just merge". Imagine Haughty with a 130 seats in Dail Eireann! Regardless of the small differences between the two big parties (which is normal in a mature, functioning, wealthy democracy where the big questions have long been answered and the majority coalesce around the center) having two big opposition parties that governance swings between IS A GOOD THING for preventing fraud & corruption.

In short when addressing corruption you don't focus on the person or the specific incident. You talk about the structure and situation that created the opportunity. You fix that you fix "corruption" instead of the pretense that we will find uncorruptable men and women.

Nepotism => Independent Appointments Commission.
Business influence on politicians => State funds political parties
Planning brides => Remove rezoning rights from Councillors to an independent transparent authority where critical decisions are taken openly by highly paid professionals who have vetted income (much like certain roles in financial services have to share their financial circumstances annually with the regulator).

micosoft

CrabRevolution wrote: »

I think deep down, people are well aware that we in Ireland experience a degree of safety, freedom and prosperity that the majority of the world can only dream of.

We just love a good moan so we get hyperbole about "third world health system" "must corrupt country on earth", "RTE propaganda", "banana republic".

Which ironically makes the Transparency International Score for us worse then it might be. It's a useful meme for the opposition here. For example, NZ is forth in the transparency index. I would give an opinion that this is because the papers there are simply not as engaged on the topic as here and have only recently become focused on the topic. As a result the perception is worsening.

micosoft

And if we needed more evidence the Release of the Panama Papers show remarkably few Irish residents and an awful lot of supposedly clean countries we should mimic.... like Iceland.

Sleepy

I dunno, no one has ever quite been able to explain where Haughey got the money to buy a private island...

K-9

Sleepy wrote: »

I dunno, no one has ever quite been able to explain where Haughey got the money to buy a private island...

It was widely speculated on though, his finances didn't add up.

As for Ireland, I'd say it is more the nod, nod, wink, wink type these days, the directorship a politician will get once he retires that type of thing.

Mesrine65

CrabRevolution wrote: »

I wonder the same about corruption in general. Especially things like cronyism or nepotism.

Say in RTE or the likes, at a board meeting they mention they need a new manager or producer. Does someone pipe up and say "my nephew will do that, no need to hold any recruiting" And that's it he gets hired?

Or do they pretend to run a normal recruitment process but HR are instructed by senior management to ignore their own work and hire said relative regardless of who applies?

This is the preferred modus operandi in my place of employment (semi-state) :mad:

Drumpot

seamus wrote: »

A good example of why Irish commentators need to avoid hyperbole when describing Irish politics as "rotten to the core".

There's the under-the-radar nod and wink stuff that happens in Ireland and then there's real mafia-style corruption on another level like this stuff in SA.

Perhaps they are rotten to the core in comparison to the number one country in the world. Why lower expectations and benchmark against the worst?

micosoft

Drumpot wrote: »

Perhaps they are rotten to the core in comparison to the number one country in the world. Why lower expectations and benchmark against the worst?

We are bench-marking against the best. We are 18 behind Denmark. We are 150 ahead of Afghanistan. We are in the 93% percentile of control of corruption in the World. Our whistle-blowing legislation leads the world for example.

And that's despite wrongheaded individuals like yourself making up a level of corruption that simply does not exist in this country. Remove the public perception of corruption driven by a certain narrative in this country and you'll find a country that is one of the least corrupt. Even Haughey and Lowrys corruption falls into the ha'penny space against the evidence of what has occurred in the US and UK, two countries which score better as the media have not focused on corruption in the past two decades.

Ultimately the last corrupt sector in this state is the part of the electorate that insists on selling it's vote to the highest bidder. That requires fixing the electoral system.

micosoft

Mesrine65 wrote: »

This is the preferred modus operandi in my place of employment (semi-state) :mad:

Do you know what. I hear this all the time in organisation after organisation. And the common denominator are individuals who just aren't up to scratch and instead of getting their CV/Interview skills up to scratch cast mud. Perhaps they have a relative in the business who tells them to check their spellings on their CV and dress in a clean suit for the interview but in twenty years of recruiting in private and semi-state I've never seen a case where somebody was given a job. I've seen plenty of bitter people who don't prepare for recruitment and wonder why they don't progress.

micosoft

Sleepy wrote: »

I dunno, no one has ever quite been able to explain where Haughey got the money to buy a private island...

Actually there was a fair amount of documentation and books on his various sources of income. The interesting thing is that most of the money he got through bluster as opposed to direct corrupt practices e.g. Liam Lawlor. The largest indirect source was the write off of his AIB loans. And this was purely to avoid embarrassing a sitting Taoiseach.
As it turns out AIB had to be bailed out by the Government after disastrous investment in the 80's but they didn't know that at the time they wrote of his loans. Whether AIB would have been bailed out regardless I'm not so sure. Given PMPA were as well we know the state had an interventionist policy the with financial institutions.

Dave_The_Sheep

micosoft wrote: »

Ultimately the last corrupt sector in this state is the part of the electorate that insists on selling it's vote to the highest bidder. That requires fixing the electoral system.

Ah yes. It's actually the voters fault that corruption exists. It's the voters fault that the people they voted for decided to corrupt themselves.

That is some absolutely superb logic.

Mesrine65

micosoft wrote: »

Do you know what. I hear this all the time in organisation after organisation. And the common denominator are individuals who just aren't up to scratch and instead of getting their CV/Interview skills up to scratch cast mud. Perhaps they have a relative in the business who tells them to check their spellings on their CV and dress in a clean suit for the interview but in twenty years of recruiting in private and semi-state I've never seen a case where somebody was given a job. I've seen plenty of bitter people who don't prepare for recruitment and wonder why they don't progress.

I don't doubt that your experience differs to mine, but it is a fact that the organization I am employed by puts out public tenders for vacant positions only to have it filled by...surprise, surprise...a relative, friend of a friend etc.

It's the most incestuous den of nepotism I've ever experienced in my working life.

If the common denominator you allude to is me, I'm not bitter & have progressed to the highest level of my chosen profession, I am content with my lot, I just believe it is highly unfair the way the system is manipulated to suit the chosen candidate.

Capt'n Midnight

micosoft wrote: »

And if we needed more evidence the Release of the Panama Papers show remarkably few Irish residents and an awful lot of supposedly clean countries we should mimic.... like Iceland.

That's because Ansbacher are in the Cayman Islands.

Remember Panama is one leak of one firm in one country. It's barely even the tip of one of the icebergs floating down past Greenland when you know that Antartica is out there.

rsh118

It's sad in this day and age to think there are people out there living without an amphitheater. Brings a single green, white, and orange tear to my eye.

Capt'n Midnight

rsh118 wrote: »

It's sad in this day and age to think there are people out there living without an amphitheater. Brings a single green, white, and orange tear to my eye.

Hey, Listowel has a monorail.

JustTheOne

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Ah yes. It's actually the voters fault that corruption exists. It's the voters fault that the people they voted for decided to corrupt themselves.

That is some absolutely superb logic.

It is though.

Why vote lowry back in?

Why are ff already forgiven for decades of corruption that destroyed the country?

We love a bit of corruption in Ireland, but it's not on a massive scale.

gramar

Lowry built an extension onto his house

...call that corruption?.. This is corruption....

Zuma added "a swimming pool, cattle enclosure, chicken run, amphitheatre and visitor centre as upgrades to the compound that were not related to security."

seamus

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Ah yes. It's actually the voters fault that corruption exists. It's the voters fault that the people they voted for decided to corrupt themselves.

That is some absolutely superb logic.

Well, it's valid. We have free and fair elections. So these people don't put themselves into office. They're put there by the voters.

And they don't suddenly become corrupt in office, they got there doing the kinds of activities that become corruption when you get elected. Lowry, the Healy-Raes, Mick Wallace, SF, FF, FG, it's all about being the guy who can, "get things done", and in return you get a vote at the next general election.

If voters realised that voting for the guy who's done you the most favours is in fact explicitly endorsing and approving of corruption, they might be less inclined to continue voting for them.

micosoft wrote: »

And if we needed more evidence the Release of the Panama Papers show remarkably few Irish residents and an awful lot of supposedly clean countries we should mimic.... like Iceland.

It made me chuckle alright, thinking about the amount of people here on boards who held Iceland up as the paragon of how you deal with a financial crisis, like it was some kind of socialist paradise where banks and profits weren't in charge.

Sleepy

micosoft wrote: »

Actually there was a fair amount of documentation and books on his various sources of income. The interesting thing is that most of the money he got through bluster as opposed to direct corrupt practices e.g. Liam Lawlor. The largest indirect source was the write off of his AIB loans. And this was purely to avoid embarrassing a sitting Taoiseach.
As it turns out AIB had to be bailed out by the Government after disastrous investment in the 80's but they didn't know that at the time they wrote of his loans. Whether AIB would have been bailed out regardless I'm not so sure. Given PMPA were as well we know the state had an interventionist policy the with financial institutions.

There's an old legend in banking circles about the conversation that took place between Haughey and AIB at the time. Allegedly, Haughey reminded the loans manager handling his case that, as Taoiseach, he callled the tune of the man responsible for setting the corporate tax rate that AIB would have to pay...

micosoft

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Ah yes. It's actually the voters fault that corruption exists. It's the voters fault that the people they voted for decided to corrupt themselves.

That is some absolutely superb logic.

Are you suggesting that the voters don't have the opportunity to vote out corrupt politicians? They have re-elected a politician convicted of corruption repeatedly in Tipp. It's the voters fault if they reward corrupt politicians by reelecting them. I fail to see the gap in my logic there....

gramar

micosoft wrote: »

Are you suggesting that the voters don't have the opportunity to vote out corrupt politicians? They have re-elected a politician convicted of corruption repeatedly in Tipp. It's the voters fault if they reward corrupt politicians by reelecting them. I fail to see the gap in my logic there....

It's a revolving door situation. You vote one out and there's another standing in line to be voted in. If they're not corrupt when they get in then they won't be long becoming it.

melissak

Ireland is much less corrupt than lots of countries. Is this all we should hope for? it's not as bad as north Korea sure it will do. Why do we consistently accept mediocrity when we could strive for greatness