Study law in Ireland vs Northern Ireland

plstudent

As the title says, I am considering beginning a career in law. I would like for it to be in Ireland, but I haven't decided yet whether in the Republic of Ireland or in NI.

Where are there better chances to find employment after graduation and after completing the training to be a solicitor/barrister: in Ireland or Northern Ireland?

Is it common for lawyers from NI to work in Ireland and vice versa?

From what I can tell, NI seems like a safer bet, because who is selected to become solicitors/barristers depends on an entrance exam, whereas in Ireland you are dependent on securing a training contract to become a solicitor. This system also restricts the number of newly qualified solicitors and barristers to 160, which should limit competition, even if fully qualified solicitors from Ireland and the UK can easily transfer to NI.


http://www.ibanet.org/ppid/constituent/student_committee/qualify_lawyer_northernireland.aspx

MarkAnthony

NI is (from what I can gather) an absolute nightmare to get a spot due to the limits imposed. To my mind a large part of being a practising lawyer is your social skills. In the Republic that is perhaps rewarded too much. However I can't think of a worse swing the other way than relying completely on acedemic ability. (Obviously in NI certain frameworks need to be worked within for clear reasons.)

The chances of finding employment in RoI is practically 100%. Whether you can make a living at it though...

In NI it's tough going getting in, but there is money to be made.

My 2 cents from a lot of third hand info. Take it for what it's worth.

LegallyAbroad

The Bar, probably the North, in terms of viability of making a living at the start. The restrictions and barriers to entry stop it being as nepotistic and such and old boys clubs.

If you can get a traineeship with the Top 6 in Dublin, take that. After that, I'm not sure what the options are. NI is a smaller legal market, but a traineeship with any of the magic circle firms or Tughans would go a long way to negating that.

johnnyskeleton

LegallyAbroad wrote: »

The Bar, probably the North, in terms of viability of making a living at the start. The restrictions and barriers to entry stop it being as nepotistic and such and old boys clubs.

Bloody free markets creating closed shops!

MarkAnthony

TBH the bloody accent would annoy me enough to not want to work up there. It sounds like the aliens off Mars Attacks after a while.

plstudent

MarkAnthony wrote: »

NI is (from what I can gather) an absolute nightmare to get a spot due to the limits imposed.

That is precisely why I prefer the system in NI. Social skills are probably not as important because of the limited spots to become a solicitor. Isn't it a much safer bet to score well in an exam in NI than to hope somebody gives you a training contract in RoI?

MarkAnthony wrote: »

However I can't think of a worse swing the other way than relying completely on acedemic ability. (Obviously in NI certain frameworks need to be worked within for clear reasons.)

I disagree. I prefer a system that relies on academic ability, specially if it's essentially a single exam as opposed to years of good grades.

MarkAnthony

plstudent wrote: »

That is precisely why I prefer the system in NI. Social skills are probably not as important because of the limited spots to become a solicitor. Isn't it a much safer bet to score well in an exam in NI than to hope somebody gives you a training contract in RoI?

I disagree. I prefer a system that relies on academic ability, specially if it's essentially a single exam as opposed to years of good grades.

You should probably go the NI route then. Having seen many of my classmates get contracts here on the basis of internships, contacts and reasonable grades who probably wouldn't have got a look in, in NI I don't like their system. I understand why it's there, but it's not because they want the best possible lawyers. I'd answer your first point by saying, no it's definitely not a safer bet to rely on a snapshot of a score, on a single day.

Furthermore a potential employer should get to know the candidate and see if they're a good fit. A barrister needs a certain level of academic ability obviously, but again let him or her be sorted out by the market. There's plenty of uses for the BLs that don't make it in practice.

I don't want to derail the thread by getting into the merits and pitfalls of exams, but suffice it to say many great minds have lamented the shortcomings of them. They're of course a necessary evil and certain knowledge needs to be at your fingertips instantly. How many barristers do you see doing everything from memory in court?

Nidgeweasel

plstudent wrote: »

As the title says, I am considering beginning a career in law. I would like for it to be in Ireland, but I haven't decided yet whether in the Republic of Ireland or in NI.

Where are there better chances to find employment after graduation and after completing the training to be a solicitor/barrister: in Ireland or Northern Ireland?

Is it common for lawyers from NI to work in Ireland and vice versa?

From what I can tell, NI seems like a safer bet, because who is selected to become solicitors/barristers depends on an entrance exam, whereas in Ireland you are dependent on securing a training contract to become a solicitor. This system also restricts the number of newly qualified solicitors and barristers to 160, which should limit competition, even if fully qualified solicitors from Ireland and the UK can easily transfer to NI.


http://www.ibanet.org/ppid/constituent/student_committee/qualify_lawyer_northernireland.aspx

Unless I'm missing something here, the "160 places" are these not places reserved to do the academic stage at the institute?

You still need a training contract or a master?

Each route way in is a pain in the arse to be brutally honest and you can make arguments for them both.

Have you been to university yet, do you intend to do Law?

plstudent

MarkAnthony wrote: »

You should probably go the NI route then. Having seen many of my classmates get contracts here on the basis of internships, contacts and reasonable grades who probably wouldn't have got a look in, in NI I don't like their system. I understand why it's there, but it's not because they want the best possible lawyers. I'd answer your first point by saying, no it's definitely not a safer bet to rely on a snapshot of a score, on a single day.

Furthermore a potential employer should get to know the candidate and see if they're a good fit. A barrister needs a certain level of academic ability obviously, but again let him or her be sorted out by the market. There's plenty of uses for the BLs that don't make it in practice.

I don't want to derail the thread by getting into the merits and pitfalls of exams, but suffice it to say many great minds have lamented the shortcomings of them. They're of course a necessary evil and certain knowledge needs to be at your fingertips instantly. How many barristers do you see doing everything from memory in court?

I think an exam can be a better indicator of who can be a good lawyer rather than having friends or social contacts. In regard to your question, I think the entrance exam is mostly based on reasoning skills rather than knowledge, and it's multiple choice.

Nidgeweasel wrote: »

Unless I'm missing something here, the "160 places" are these not places reserved to do the academic stage at the institute?

You still need a training contract or a master?

Each route way in is a pain in the arse to be brutally honest and you can make arguments for them both.

I was going after this:

"Vocational Training in Northern Ireland begins with an examination colloquially referred to as the ‘Institute’ Exam. This is an examination which is taken by students who wish to practice as a solicitor or barrister in Northern Ireland. It is comprised of two papers, the first being a three-hour multiple choice legal reasoning test and the second exam being a shorter one hour mathematics test. Individuals who are placed in the top 25 are offered a place to train as either a solicitor or a barrister at the Institute of Professional Legal studies in Belfast and the remaining 135 candidates are offered a place to train as a solicitor. Based on how one chooses there is also an extensive waiting list filled with candidates ready to take whatever places become available. Those additional candidates are then offered a place to train as a solicitor at either the Institute of Professional Legal Studies in Belfast or the Graduate School of Professional Legal Education in Derry. "


http://www.ibanet.org/ppid/constituent/student_committee/qualify_lawyer_northernireland.aspx

You mean that you would need a training contract, in addition to a place at the institute? In that case, it's probably still easier to secure a training contract if there are fewer people looking for one and that have passed the exam.

Have you been to university yet, do you intend to do Law?

Yup, I'm a non-law graduate.

MarkAnthony

plstudent wrote: »

I think an exam can be a better indicator of who can be a good lawyer rather than having friends or social contacts. In regard to your question, I think the entrance exam is mostly based on reasoning skills rather than knowledge, and it's multiple choice.

Indeed but it's neither one nor the other here it's a multifaceted approach, which in fairness has grown organically rather than by design. NI has a issues it has to deal with. An exam or even academic ability is never going to pick out people who can relate to clients, who can build relationships with others, be in in a team or amongst other professionals, it's not going to pick out who's good on their feet, who can make a convincing argument or who can pick a niche area and become very good at it through hard work and experience.

If you're fairly young and Irish you'll have been conditioned to think that exam performance is some reasonable measure of performance. Life experience may, or may not teach you otherwise. I'm not suggesting RoI has it perfect, there are many criticisms to level at the RoI system, thankfully blind snapshots aren't one of them I'm glad to say. I've no issue with relatively hard exams, I'm absolutely dreading the KI entrance exams, I do have an issue with limiting a market to people who are good at exams.

plstudent wrote: »

Yup, I'm a non-law graduate.

I'm not sure how it works in NI but here you'd be able to immediately start taking the FE1s to gain entry to Blackhall (solicitors). I don't know whether NI requires a law degree, I assume they do.

Nidgeweasel

plstudent wrote: »

I was going after this:

"Vocational Training in Northern Ireland begins with an examination colloquially referred to as the ‘Institute’ Exam. This is an examination which is taken by students who wish to practice as a solicitor or barrister in Northern Ireland. It is comprised of two papers, the first being a three-hour multiple choice legal reasoning test and the second exam being a shorter one hour mathematics test. Individuals who are placed in the top 25 are offered a place to train as either a solicitor or a barrister at the Institute of Professional Legal studies in Belfast and the remaining 135 candidates are offered a place to train as a solicitor. Based on how one chooses there is also an extensive waiting list filled with candidates ready to take whatever places become available. Those additional candidates are then offered a place to train as a solicitor at either the Institute of Professional Legal Studies in Belfast or the Graduate School of Professional Legal Education in Derry. "


http://www.ibanet.org/ppid/constituent/student_committee/qualify_lawyer_northernireland.aspx

You mean that you would need a training contract, in addition to a place at the institute? In that case, it's probably still easier to secure a training contract if there are fewer people looking for one and that have passed the exam.




Yup, I'm a non-law graduate.

I don't think there'd be any fewer people looking though. The above is concerned with the top ranking students getting the most popular location (Belfast).


Based on how one chooses there is also an extensive waiting list filled with candidates ready to take whatever places become available


I really don't think it'd be any less of a challenge or any easier. There will be a plethora of candidates with no training contracts.

You're looking at it with the mentality that if you get in that top bracket it may be easier to get a training contract. Of course if you are one of those people then it stands to reason you may be the type of person to be attractive to a firm but while grades help they are not the be all and end all.

Personally, I tend to find you can throw a blanket over most applicants in terms of grades. There are minimum academic requirements to be met so most will have their high points/AAB/2:1's. It's how you differentiate and display your skills that will be the clincher, not your grades.

In terms of north or south, I believe that non law graduates will have to do a conversion course of some description before doing the institute exams. QUB do a masters in legal science if memory serves. However this is likely to be lengthy and adds extra fees.

The FE1's allow for non-law graduates to get cracking straight away don't they?- I always considered the preparation for that to sound more akin to grinds than lectures but I stand open to correction as I trained outside Ireland.

plstudent

Nidgeweasel wrote: »

I don't think there'd be any fewer people looking though. The above is concerned with the top ranking students getting the most popular location (Belfast).


Based on how one chooses there is also an extensive waiting list filled with candidates ready to take whatever places become available


I really don't think it'd be any less of a challenge or any easier. There will be a plethora of candidates with no training contracts.

You're looking at it with the mentality that if you get in that top bracket it may be easier to get a training contract. Of course if you are one of those people then it stands to reason you may be the type of person to be attractive to a firm but while grades help they are not the be all and end all.

Personally, I tend to find you can throw a blanket over most applicants in terms of grades. There are minimum academic requirements to be met so most will have their high points/AAB/2:1's. It's how you differentiate and display your skills that will be the clincher, not your grades.

In terms of north or south, I believe that non law graduates will have to do a conversion course of some description before doing the institute exams. QUB do a masters in legal science if memory serves. However this is likely to be lengthy and adds extra fees.

Why is somebody who hasn't passed the exam going to be offered a training contract? Not totally sure about this, but it may well be the case that, in practice, the system reduces the amount of people looking for a solicitor training contract that have a valid shot at getting it to 135 each year.
Surely, it is much higher in RoI, and with a much bigger number of graduates from previous years looking for a training contract.

The FE1's allow for non-law graduates to get cracking straight away don't they?- I always considered the preparation for that to sound more akin to grinds than lectures but I stand open to correction as I trained outside Ireland.

here are minimum academic requirements to be met so most will have their high points/AAB/2:1's. It's how you differentiate and display your skills that will be the clincher, not your grades.

If the academic requirements are high, that will probably make it even more difficult for non-law graduates to get an offer. I have a degree in Engineering from Germany, and it's not honors or anything special. I found it difficult (hate maths) and barely passed.

MarkAnthony

Now that there's a bit more info I think you're jumping the gun as to where to study for a professional qualification. You need the undergraduate qualification first. The best bet is going to be to get into the best institution you can in either RoI, NI or England and Wales. From there you can worry about the professional qualification.

If you're looking for direct entry (Either through the FE-1s into Blackhall or doing the Diploma and gaining entry to the Inns) you're stuck in RoI I'm afraid. If it's undergraduate you want then I'd personally put Queens at the top followed by TCD, UCD and then UCC. I'm sure I'll get a flaming for that but that's just my impression on how the institutional snobbery seems to play out.

You also need to think carefully about what you want, do you want a top 5 firm, General Practice, solicitor, barrister, research. That'll come as you progress through undergrad if that's what you're going to do.

Jasnah

I'd also suggest making your choice based on the best school you can get into, as it makes everything much easier as regards finding jobs etc. afterwords from the impressions I've gotten. List of best schools is as above by MarkAnthony, but you can swap around Queens and Trinity if you like.

clocks

As indicated you seem to have conflated the choice of where to study with where you would practise law in the future.

Your decision about University will be based on quality, facilities, location, price etc. You should also check the recognition of the degree by, where appropriate, the Bars and Law Societies of ROI, NI, and England & Wales.