Soon to be dependent mother-in-law

CapedCrusader

Hi folks,

I can smell some trouble a comin' down the track...

My mother in law has lead quite a charmed, carefree life. It seems throughout her life, over the course of decades she has moved from partner to partner without many consequences to her way or quality of life at all. However, she hasn't been very wise financially. The most devastating of her financial decisions was when she inherited enough cash to buy a nice house in the countryside. She then married her partner and put the entirety of her inheritance into a large seaside house. Her new husband invested nothing, instead taking out an interest only mortgage to pay for his share and then promising to sell one of his many properties to buy out his share.

Needless to say, this never happened. The relationship went south and he stopped paying the mortgage. Proceedings for repossession of the house got under way and the mother-in-law now faces eviction from her luxurious house and will be left with only a few thousand in savings that is "resting" in our bank account as Father Ted might say. She will not get any of her money back because the house will not sell for what they bought it for.

My wife gets off the phone saying her mum is saying things things like "ah well, I'll just have to pitch a tent in your garden" etc. etc. and numerous "jokey" things like this. But we all know what's coming. I'm being set up for the big question.

And of course, it will just be "temporary". And of course, if it really was just temporary, I wouldn't have a problem in the world - if there was some sort of viable long term solution that was being worked towards - but there isn't. I just can't see what she can do or where she will go. We live in another EU country and I'm not sure what the welfare laws are like here and what sort of social housing would be available - but given the high standard of living my MIL has enjoyed all these years, I fear she will be too high above this to entertain it.

Us, on the other hand, we have worked hard on our relationship and endured things and stuck together and we're both glad we did. We have been renting for a number of years and now, finally we are on the verge of buying a house we've wanted for a long time. After years of financial prudence and sacrifice I now find myself in the position of being asked to give up part of that for someone else who wasn't so cautious or prudent.

My mother in law is actually a nice woman and we get on well. In fact, we lived with her for one month when we arrived in this "other EU country". Trouble is, we are a bilingual family and with her around, the balance tips in the "foreign" direction. My capabilities in the local language are limited so this has quite a disproportional impact on the delicate cultural balance in the house. She has a very matriarchal view of the world. Sometimes I get the feeling that men are optional disposal accessories. Her real family is her daughter and my daughters. Very often at occasions we have the "girls only photograph". This drives me crazy as it means everyone except me and I'm the one taking the picture.

But then the human in me obviously has compassion for the woman - but I really feel the impact of her in our home would be very negative over time. But maybe it wouldn't - can I afford to take the risk? I worked hard to provide for my kids and protect them from some of the stuff I went through as a kid. The thoughts of dumping myself on them later in life horrifies me.

What terrifies me is that this can be presented as a temporary measure but then she could end up living with us for decades and what can you do then?!?

I don't have a question here really - it's a complex situation. I'd be really grateful for people's thoughts, experiences and insight.

silverharp

Im all for helping parents in their latter years but bailing out what appears to be quite an irresponsible individual doesnt warm the cockles. Ive known a couple of south african families that brought their parents over and either built a granny flat in their garden or rented somewhere in the same estate as their kids.
I think you should only let this happen if there is a guaranteed plan that has a fixed end point. It sounds like your mil could be a master manipulator and would find ways to make it her and your wife and daughters against you. I guess the first thing to do is to make sure going forward that you and your wife are on the same page. if this goes south it could damage your marriage badly, your wife needs to be made aware of this

Neyite

I think that even if you get on well with in-laws, a couple (and their children) need their own home. Otherwise there is a tendency for them to become involved in your parenting decisions, whether that's to weigh in their unasked for opinion or to undermine yours against your spouse. Then it spreads to involving themselves in your housekeeping/ decorating choices or your financials.

Your wife will feel an obligation to her mother, so its likely that even if she is not particularly enthused at the idea of her mother moving in, she will go along with it, or hide behind you so you are the bad guy.

I do think though that you should talk to your wife about how matriarchal influence is exclusionary to you, and while in small doses it's irritating, on a longer time frame you would find it very annoying. I've a son and if someone told me as a parent that I couldn't partake in something with him because I'm a 'girl' I'd be well pissed off. I've no issue with him heading off to football with his dad and granddad, but its always on the assumption I'm welcome to come if I like. But then I'm a bit twitchy when it comes to gendered assumptions, and in our home we would never exclude the other parent from a family activity because of gender.

But maybe approach it obliquely (like they are doing!) maybe from a feminist angle, the matriarchal influence can be just as restrictive as a patriarchal one to girls - they are both about strict roles based on gender and you sound like you want your daughters to grow up without feeling like their gender would stop them from doing something they want to do.

Or, (a minor hint to throw in maybe) maybe after renting so long, your wife is looking forward to you and her choosing how to decorate your home exactly the way you want it to. Wont her mother want to add her own touches to 'her' home too if she lives with you. My mother would drive me cracked with little ornamental knickknacks and frilly tablecloths if she lived with me - any chance its similar for your wife & MIL?

Definitely look into welfare / social supports that might be available for your MIL. That way when they do say that she has nowhere to go, or cant afford anything herself you can counter with practical suggestions that blow their argument out of the water. Worst case scenario, you offer a granny flat option.

Half-serious options for you: Drop hints that she could be your full time childcare /housekeeper in exchange for a roof over her head. :P If she's used to being kept as such that might dissuade her a bit! Or maybe a gentle push towards dating again to find another husband because it must be lonely for her...;)

CapedCrusader

Thanks folks,

I think my wife understands my thoughts about this. I know the way she works sometimes - if she knows I'm resistant to something, she will try over a long time to soften me up and eventually present it as something that is just going to happen. So I agree that this needs to be tackled head on.

I think the key will be to understand what her options are from a state support point of view. She had a very well off partner for the last few years and she moved in with him and everything - but she just couldn't live with him - she is too set in her ways. It's well for her that she has the luxury to push this guy away - the thought of her falling back on us is just a no no as far as I'm concerned. And if she can't live with anyone because she is too set in her ways - how would it be if she was with us! Disaster! The more I think about it, the more horrific the picture becomes.

@Neyite - you are spot on about me regarding my daughters. I won't entertain the notion or let them entertain the notion that they are in any way limited because they are girls. An episode that disturbs me is the following:

The mother-in-law's mum was very sick and she was going to visit her regularly. She needed to take a boat - 10 hour sailing. She stayed with her sister. On one occasion it was put to me that since she would have a cabin with 3 empty berths and an empty car - why didn't my wife and daughters go too. I could come too if I could find some dark corner in the boat to sleep in!!!!! Now I knew immediately that the plan was for me not to come, so I played along - sure thing - I'll come - I'll find a seat to sleep on, no problem. So I called their bluff and then it was presented as "a girls only trip!!!!"

ALARM BELLS
The frustrating thing about all of this is that no matter how much I protest about this, my wife still cannot understand why I was annoyed that my mother in law wanted to cart my family off somewhere and I wasn't invited.

That alone is enough to settle the issue for me!

CaraMay

I don't understand why you had an issue with your wife and kids going on the trip either!? Are they not entitled to take a trip with their granny to see their sick great granny?? They probably should have said 'girls only' up front but it would seem they didn't think you would agree to that...

You need to talk to your wife. Are there other family members she can live with?

Neyite

CapedCrusader wrote: »

The frustrating thing about all of this is that no matter how much I protest about this, my wife still cannot understand why I was annoyed that my mother in law wanted to cart my family off somewhere and I wasn't invited.

That alone is enough to settle the issue for me!

When your MIL pulls the 'girls only' sh!te, if your wife cannot see how exclusionary it is for you, then you need to resolve that first before tackling it together. If your daughters were sons, would your wife like it if your dad constantly pulled this crap and you told her she wasn't allowed to be involved in the outing/ activity. Once your wife sees your point of view on this, only then can you as a united front tackle the MIL doing 'girly' stuff, and get to the point where you are welcome to come, and can choose for yourself to go or not.

I remember reading on another forum about a woman who was driven cracked by her teens and husband leaving wrappers, plates, cups etc all over the place instead of clearing it away. So, in order to tackle it, she would go to them with said rubbish and made them say to her face "You can fcuking clean it up, Mum". Which was uncomfortable for her children and husband to say to her face. She was making the point that when by their actions they are leaving this stuff lying about, that its non-verbally giving her the same message as what she was making them say to her face. And they started to be more copped on and put wrappers in the bin and dishes in the dishwasher. So I wonder if a variation on this would work for you? That when every time your wife says 'girly trip' or whatever, you ask her verbally tell you to your face "Caped, you are not invited. We don't want you around, we are excluding you from this family outing because you are male"

strandroad

Her "girls only" thing sounds like bullsh*t to cover up that she simply doesn't rate or like you. I bet that if you had a little boy she wouldn't exclude him but she'd come up with a different excuse for why she doesn't want *you* around.

Do not accept her moving in. She will run a "girls only haha" house with you as a guest in it, and your wife is already complacent. Your wife needs to see this or you're heading into a storm.

CapedCrusader

Wow - this is going to be difficult - the wife really thinks that if the MIL finds herself with no options that we just have to take her in. "What can we do" she says. The problem is - if we're perceived as a soft option she won't look hard for an alternative.

In the past, for big events, the wife always wants to go to her mum's. I'm always like, why? This is our home - it's your birthday - let them come here. This is the challenge - I think if it comes down to a choice between her mum and me - she will choose her mum, no questions. So perhaps, more fundamental issues to work on!

By the way - you're going to love this, when we're at her mum - there's a "boy's toilet" and a "girl's toilet" which basically means there's a special toilet for me!!

I really don't think my wife can be persuaded that we have the option to turn her away when it comes down to it and I think that if we were faced with this situation and I said no, then it would be a crisis for us.

It's really annoying because it's not like her mother ever put her first, dragging her from house to house and partner to partner - yet she'd do anything for mommy, who generally doesn't put herself out too much when it comes to helping us.

I don't even think a granny flat would work.

This is going to be tough

beks101

Are there any other relatives who can share the burden? Does your MIL or your wife have siblings?

I'd be having a frank conversation with my OH if I were you. Sit her down and spell out exactly how this concerns you. The exclusionary behaviour, the likely long-term nature of this set up, how that will impact on your parenting endeavours etc.

Perhaps you could set a hard figure on exactly how long you will be putting your MIL up before someone else takes her or she manages to make her own arrangements?

strandroad

beks101 wrote: »

Perhaps you could set a hard figure on exactly how long you will be putting your MIL up before someone else takes her or she manages to make her own arrangements?

I wouldn't trust it, if they regularly exclude him and don't respect his concerns now they won't honour promises either.

Dial Hard

CapedCrusader wrote:

By the way - you're going to love this, when we're at her mum - there's a "boy's toilet" and a "girl's toilet" which basically means there's a special toilet for me!!

When you first mentioned the "girls only" photos and stuff I thought you were overreacting, but this is interesting. Is it a culture where separating genders would be the norm? If so, I think you're fighting a losing battle trying to change that attitude.

Does your wife have any siblings? If so, where are they in all of this?

CapedCrusader

Hi folks,

@Diehard - no - it's not a cultural thing... it's her thing and it's not normal!

Many have asked if she has siblings. Yes - a younger sister. My wife also has a younger brother who only has a studio. Mind you, my MIL's sister has a spare room.

I feel it's going to be either I say yes and I die a slow and painful death or I say no and the wife never forgives me.

DaisyD2

CapedCrusader wrote: »

Wow - this is going to be difficult - the wife really thinks that if the MIL finds herself with no options that we just have to take her in. "What can we do" she says.

So perhaps, more fundamental issues to work on

I really don't think my wife can be persuaded that we have the option to turn her away when it comes down to it and I think that if we were faced with this situation and I said no, then it would be a crisis for us

This is going to be tough

I bought my own home over a decade ago during which time my parents, who have always had toxic relationship as far as I'm concerned, were going through particularily bad patch - que lots of "mutterings" & "jokey" comments about my spare room!

I shot that crappola Straight Down in flames!!!!! Not a *^%#£* chance I was even allowing my Mother stay a week "while Dad cools off"!

I told my own Mother in no uncertain terms they had assets which meant she had choices. If they wanted to split up they could sell up, divvy proceeds & live their own lives.

In no circumstances was I giving her a bolthole to go back n forth from! Oh she had all the answers including she was not letting him piss away our inheritance. I assured her I have no interest in inheritance, I would rather see them both happy & healthy.

For good measure I also countered that in all likelyhood assets would be sold to provide care in their dotage anyway as I will not be in position to give up work to look after them should they need it.

Harsh? Yes, to others maybe but for sake of my Sanity, Privacy & Mental Wellbeing I knew I had to put my foot down immediately because if I gave an inch her first action would've been to redecorate to her taste & get a key copied!!

She just could not see anything wrong with me not allowing her to live with me, at least/even/especially parttime. It still occassionally rears its head & gets shut down with firm No.

If your wife cannot see she is being manipulated until her Mother gets a better offer you indeed have bigger problems and I don't envy you one bit.

You must stand firm or you will find yourself an outsider or even worse on the outside of your own family & home.

Best of luck with her.

jopax

DaisyD2 wrote:

If your wife cannot see she is being manipulated until her Mother gets a better offer you indeed have bigger problems and I don't envy you one bit.

DaisyD2 wrote:

You must stand firm or you will find yourself an outsider or even worse on the outside of your own family & home.

I agree 100% with this, Daisy has just nailed it perfectly.

LegacyUser

Jaysus.I'm from a family of four sisters and not once, ever, did I hear that 'girls only' phrase used by anyone in my immediate or extended family.And nothing was EVER presented as being a 'girls only' thing (even if it was something like going clothes shopping, which my dad was never interested in!!).Further, my mum is one of four girls, and that phrase was never used there either, or by any of my aunts.

My point of view?Nope, there will not be parents living with us.Families need their own space and someone will always suffer when that situation arises, even if it all appears happy on the surface.Stand your ground OP, it's not on.

New Home

Assuming your MIL will still have some sort of pension/small income to fall back on, and considering she has three children who could potentially be morally obliged to help her (even though her troubles seem to be, in large part, self-inflicted), why not help her find a bedsit/studio/one bed apt/something small/cheap, and each of her off-springs could help her with the rent? Note that I wrote 'help', not 'pay it for her in its entirety'. Also, it'd have to be a temporary arrangement with a pre-set 'end date', or this could end up going on indefinitely. Finally, could she not get a lawyer and see if she can get some money back from her ex, even if it's for 'arrears of rent owed'?

CapedCrusader

Thanks again for all the replies.

The challenge in all of this is that we might very well find ourselves in a position where she is evicted and genuinely doesn't have anywhere to go. It wil be extremely difficult for my OH to turn her away. But then, what will start as something temporary will be next to impossible to reverse once she is in situ.

Toots

I think if I were you I'd be doing whatever possible to stop her moving into your house. See can you get your wife to contact her siblings and arrange for everyone to chip in and find her somewhere cheap to live, like New Home said. Even if you did end up paying for it for a long time, it'd be preferable to having her actually living with you. You definitely need to be proactive and start talking to your wife about your concerns now, before the idea of her mum moving in starts to grow legs. I'd recommend getting a professional involved if ye can't come to an agreement.

CapedCrusader

@ New_Home and Toots,

Trying to arrange for people to help with the rent is not a bad idea at all - I hadn't thought of that!

The_Conductor

I'd also suggest- use the money that 'is resting in your account' as a nest egg for renting her a place- get that money the hell out of the equation asap- as long as its still in your possession- she has you over a barrel.

If you are as proactive as possible about renting her a place- perhaps your wife will see that there is another option- she plainly doesn't at the moment........

silverharp

CapedCrusader wrote: »

I feel it's going to be either I say yes and I die a slow and painful death or I say no and the wife never forgives me.

be strong mate, your wife doesn't seem to be adverse to manipulating you and not being direct, she might have picked up a trick or 2 from her mother. It will be worth some short term grief and at the end of the day your wife will respect you more for taking the lead when you are only trying to defend your marriage.

CapedCrusader

silverharp wrote: »

be strong mate, your wife doesn't seem to be adverse to manipulating you and not being direct, she might have picked up a trick or 2 from her mother. It will be worth some short term grief and at the end of the day your wife will respect you more for taking the lead when you are only trying to defend your marriage.

Thanks for the moral support :-)

There has been talk of her buying a caravan with her remaining savings... no talk of where it might be located though! Lol.

CapedCrusader

CapedCrusader wrote: »

The challenge in all of this is that we might very well find ourselves in a position where she is evicted and genuinely doesn't have anywhere to go.

Sorry if I missed something but I genuinely don't understand this from your wife's point of view ... why is living with you (apparently) the ONLY option your wife is considering.

CapedCrusader wrote: »

We live in another EU country and I'm not sure what the welfare laws are like here and what sort of social housing would be available - but given the high standard of living my MIL has enjoyed all these years, I fear she will be too high above this to entertain it.

And speaking of options, instead of "our house or the street" ... how about "the street or social housing" .... or "social housing or get a job"! I don't know how old your MIL is but it doesn't strike me from your posts that the reason she's not working is because she can't!!

LegacyUser

You said ye were trying to buy a house?

Make sure it's a small one. Only as many bedrooms as there are kids.

Seriously. If you have a spare room you're in trouble as long as she's alive. A pull out sofa in the living room will do for random unexpected overnight guests and will have the advantage of being not a very attractive prospect for She Who Likes Her Comfort.

CapedCrusader

Thanks Jackie,

I'm not saying that the only option is the street or with us - I'm saying that if the time came for her to be evicted and no solution had been found by then, my wife would find it very hard to say no, if there was nowhere for her to go. There's a huge waiting list for social housing and she will struggle to rent with very little income (she gets a modest allowance from estranged husband).

The problem is, obviously, that if MIL thinks we are a soft option, then unpleasant things (relatively, from her point of view) like social housing and/or working won't be properly considered. I think this is the key. Letting it be known now that this is a red line and that mummy had better be seriously looking at alternatives because we won't be entertaining it.

The problem is my wife's relationship with her mum. She is incredibly deferential to her and afraid of any sort of confrontation. I think she has a pretty classic case of approval seeking.

CapedCrusader

CapedCrusader wrote: »

I'm not saying that the only option is the street or with us - I'm saying that if the time came for her to be evicted and no solution had been found by then, my wife would find it very hard to say no, if there was nowhere for her to go.

Oh I know it's not the case but your wife and her mother are acting like it is so you need to expand the options while at the same time putting your foot down about that particular one

Have you actually discussed this openly with your wife? Does she know how you feel about this particular situation?

uberwolf

CapedCrusader wrote: »

Thanks Jackie,

I'm not saying that the only option is the street or with us - I'm saying that if the time came for her to be evicted and no solution had been found by then, my wife would find it very hard to say no, if there was nowhere for her to go. There's a huge waiting list for social housing and she will struggle to rent with very little income (she gets a modest allowance from estranged husband).

The problem is, obviously, that if MIL thinks we are a soft option, then unpleasant things (relatively, from her point of view) like social housing and/or working won't be properly considered. I think this is the key. Letting it be known now that this is a red line and that mummy had better be seriously looking at alternatives because we won't be entertaining it.

The problem is my wife's relationship with her mum. She is incredibly deferential to her and afraid of any sort of confrontation. I think she has a pretty classic case of approval seeking.

Not that it'll help in the short term, but lookup the borderline mother. The manipulative demanding 'you owe me' coupled with a deferential child could be more complex then you think!

CapedCrusader

uberwolf wrote: »

Not that it'll help in the short term, but lookup the borderline mother. The manipulative demanding 'you owe me' coupled with a deferential child could be more complex then you think!

This is indeed what is going on... and it causes all sorts of problems!

LegacyUser

You need to be very honest with your wife and tell her that her mother is not moving into your home. The reality is that over the a long period of time she was having a great life. She had money at one stage and blew it. Meanwhile you and your wife worked hard and went through a few hard times. You now at a stage of buying your own home.

At this stage why should you be left dealing with your mother in law? The reality is that your wife is not her only child. Her other children need to be made aware of what is happening and told that they can help her out also. If they have not got space for her they can give you some money each week/month towards a place for her to live.

I have seen families where one person is left dealing with parents who have issues. Within a short period of time it does not work out well for all the people concerned.

I would look into seeing what social welfare, support, socail house ect your mother in law could get. I would also buy a house with just a room each for you and your wife and each child.
Your wife may not be to happy with this but your marriage, your happness and your childrens happness are more important to you and her. You have been through some hard times so why should you be willing to put yourself back in this position again with the mother in law from hell.