Issues dating camp guys

LegacyUser

I know the topic title will get a lot of people agitated just from the one line, but please hear me out. I am what you would call a masculine guy. I like sports, I like making crude jokes, I like heading out on the piss with the lads at the weekend. I have dated a few guys in the past, but all of them have been like me, what I would label "one of the lads". That's not meant to offend anyone, but I'm sure you know what I'm trying to say.

I have gone on a couple of dates with guys that would fit more in the stereotypical camp side. They would have a more effeminate behaviour, well manicured and their interests is also what you would associate with the stereotype i.e. mainstream pop, soaps and reality TV and no time for sport of any kind.

Firstly, I have no problem with this at all. I am friends with some gay guys and I get on great with them. It's just that when it comes to dating a guy that falls under the stereotype, I just can't do it! I sometimes feel uncomfortable and awkward.

I'm wondering if it's a problem I have with homosexuality in general, or if I'm just not interested in more effeminate guys. If it's the latter, then I guess that's not a problem. But if it's the former, I really need to do something about it.

I have tried thinking about it rationally. I mean, if I was a straight guy dating a girl, she would probably (bringing in stereotypes again here) have the same interests and behaviour as I've mentioned above and it would seem perfectly normal! It's just when gender comes into it that I view it differently.

The reason I'm bringing this up now is that there's this guy I work with that I am really attracted to that is also interested in me. He's friendly, funny, interesting and attractive, but he would be quite camp. I'm worried that if I start dating him, the campness issue will cloud my mind and get in the way of what could be a great relationship.

Is there anything I can realistically do to get over this, or is there anything to get over? Am I just not interested in stereotypical gay guys?

Ten of Swords

quandry925 wrote: »

I know the topic title will get a lot of people agitated just from the one line

Oh yeah, you'll get flak for that here... but not from me anyway.


You have a clearly defined type, you've dated within this type before and guys outside this type do nothing for you. This is the same for practically everyone gay, straight and everything in between so no I don't think you have a problem with homosexuality in general (whatever that means?!).

As for the issue at hand, this guy you like - what is it about him that you are attracted to and what traits or habits does he have that really annoy you? I find that in terms of 'compatibility' you will know very early on, two or three dates max, if there is a problem and if it's insurmountable or not so if he's interested in you and the feeling is mutual then what is there to lose by testing the waters but maybe keeping it casual if you're uncertain.

You need to decide if dating this guy is worth the risk of souring your friendship (are you friends outside of work?), personally speaking I would have to know - it would kill me to not find out even if the overall outcome is not good. I would wonder and would probably feel resentment when the other person inevitably moved on with someone else, I hate missed opportunities, but meh - some people seem to love indecisiveness and torturing themselves over what might have been.

One eyed Jack

quandry925 wrote: »

Is there anything I can realistically do to get over this, or is there anything to get over? Am I just not interested in stereotypical gay guys?

There's nothing to get over. You're just not into camp guys. The fact that he annoys you now, isn't likely to improve if you were going out with him.

baby and crumble

Look we all have types and there's nothing wrong with that. We all have traits we find aggravating in other people. It's only when you persist with making sweeping judgements that you've a problem. You seem to be approaching this rationally without saying horrible stuff.

If you are attracted to this guy, then maybe you don't have as much of an issue about the camp thing as you think- maybe it was just the past examples you have tainting your view slightly.

As a butch woman (so on the flip side of this, I guess!) it is upsetting to hear blanket statements you hear from time to time like "if I wanted a man I'd just date a man" or whatever, without thinking about the personalities attached to said butch women. And looks can be deceiving- I look really butch but tbh talk to me for 5 minutes and I'm really not!

I guess what I'm trying to say is what have you got to loose my dating someone you find attractive? Get to know people beyond their first impressions (ie the campness) and they might surprise you.

Annasopra

One eyed Jack wrote: »

There's nothing to get over. You're just not into camp guys. The fact that he annoys you now, isn't likely to improve if you were going out with him.

Wait did I miss something? Where did the OP say he is annoyed by the guy?

Annasopra

I agree with everything Ten of Swords and baby and crumble said. I've also in the past read one or two discussions on here where guys have said they weren't that attracted to camp guys but they ended up dating and it went well.

The way you speak about the guy seems very warm so you do seem already to be attracted to him.

I think personally if it was me I would go on a date or two to see if it works. If it doesn't work fair enough it doesn't work.

One eyed Jack

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Wait did I miss something? Where did the OP say he is annoyed by the guy?

Well he said he's tried dating camp guys and he just can't do it, he feels awkward and uncomfortable. The OP is already hesitant about asking the guy out because he's camp, so I figured if he's that annoyed by the guy now, that's unlikely to get any better by going out with the guy (assuming he says yes, obviously).

quandry925

quandry925 wrote: »

It's just that when it comes to dating a guy that falls under the stereotype, I just can't do it! I sometimes feel uncomfortable and awkward.

Could you elaborate here as I think it might be easier to respond to your concerns if we know more. As it is I think you risk people simply assuming to know what you mean and offering a diagnosis or advice that might not fit.

What makes you uncomfortable and awkward? What sparks it off and how does this manifest itself in you? And when exactly? All the time? Only when you are in public? Only when around friends? And how to you feel or respond to this when it happens?

Is it - for example - the effeminate characteristics themselves that make you feel odd or awkward?

Or is it something totally different such as - for example - that you feel those characteristics call the attention of others to you - him - both of you - or your relationship - in ways that you dislike or feel uncomfortable with?

Because both of those examples would be massively different and as such any advice or diagnosis one might offer would differ too.

baby and crumble

Deleted User wrote: »

Or is it something totally different such as - for example - that you feel those characteristics call the attention of others to you - him - both of you - or your relationship - in ways that you dislike or feel uncomfortable with?

That's actually a good point. I personally (and this is just my personal opinion!) think that a lot of women who won't date masculine/ butch women and guys who won't date camp men are in some way wanting to blend in a little easier. I mean I make it really obvious that we're a gay couple- there's just no avoiding it when you see me, so if someone were to be a bit worried about being outed, or being seen by someone then it would make it more difficult if they were dating me, rather than say another equally feminine woman.

TBH I totally understand that. Especially when you're a little younger. I personally shied away from looking butch when I was younger because I wasn't out. Only a build up of confidence over time helped if I'm honest.

lyinghere

quandry925 wrote: »

I know the topic title will get a lot of people agitated just from the one line, but please hear me out. I am what you would call a masculine guy. I like sports, I like making crude jokes, I like heading out on the piss with the lads at the weekend. I have dated a few guys in the past, but all of them have been like me, what I would label "one of the lads". That's not meant to offend anyone, but I'm sure you know what I'm trying to say.

I have gone on a couple of dates with guys that would fit more in the stereotypical camp side. They would have a more effeminate behaviour, well manicured and their interests is also what you would associate with the stereotype i.e. mainstream pop, soaps and reality TV and no time for sport of any kind.

Firstly, I have no problem with this at all. I am friends with some gay guys and I get on great with them. It's just that when it comes to dating a guy that falls under the stereotype, I just can't do it! I sometimes feel uncomfortable and awkward.

I'm wondering if it's a problem I have with homosexuality in general, or if I'm just not interested in more effeminate guys. If it's the latter, then I guess that's not a problem. But if it's the former, I really need to do something about it.

I have tried thinking about it rationally. I mean, if I was a straight guy dating a girl, she would probably (bringing in stereotypes again here) have the same interests and behaviour as I've mentioned above and it would seem perfectly normal! It's just when gender comes into it that I view it differently.

The reason I'm bringing this up now is that there's this guy I work with that I am really attracted to that is also interested in me. He's friendly, funny, interesting and attractive, but he would be quite camp. I'm worried that if I start dating him, the campness issue will cloud my mind and get in the way of what could be a great relationship.

Is there anything I can realistically do to get over this, or is there anything to get over? Am I just not interested in stereotypical gay guys?

I think the best way to try get over it is to give it a shot. Just a few dates see what happens. Sounds like you are overthinking it. It's only a date after all.

Phantasos

There's no problem having a type. I don't like this idea of being afraid to have a type in case it offends people. It's your love life, date whoever you want.

If you prefer lads that like sport and are more of a "lad's lad", then great. Shared interests are a huge part of making a relationship work, so be fussy.

Having said that, you seem to be attracted to this current guy. There's absolutely no problem going on a date to see if you click - where's the harm? He may surprise you.

Rick_

As someone who would have said years ago that effeminate guys would have done nothing for him and would have preferred to date only "one of the lads" or "straight acting" <groan> type guys, I have only, through some random chance, been on dates this past while with guys who fall more into the effeminate category. I've been in relationships with them or dated them for some time and have really enjoyed it, the whole concept of not being interested in guys who were camp or weren't into the same things that I was completely went out the window. You won't know until you try. You might really like this guy, so go on a date with him and forget what you think you know or like and just see what happens. You might be greatly surprised.

jobbridge4life

I'm going to be blunt. Apologies in advance. Your post can be boiled down to

'I'm a man's man. You know one of de ladz. Shmoking drinking fighting sporting farting type.

I'm not into camp lads, no problem with them, just not my thing, don't think I would like to be with one.

...

I really fancy this camp lad. I'm on here writing a fairly lengthy query for advice so I'm obviously very interested in seeing what could happen with this chap but something is making me hesitate.'

A curious thing, you say in your post you are friends with 'gay guys'. Aren't you a gay man?

It seems fairly clear to me that you want this dude, and you want more than to just S his D round the back of the bike shed. So the question is what is stopping you? You have friends who are campy so its not that you can't stand campness. Is it possible that you are a little embarrassed by camp behaviour? So its okay to be friends with a flamer but the idea of being with one, of being associated with that makes you feel squeamish?

I think it is something a lot more gay people feel than they let on or maybe even know themselves. I have often felt nervous and awkward when walking down the street with one of my more... em... fabulous friends. It doesn't make you homophobic or mean you suffer from internalised homophobia I think it just means you have a way you want to be and to be perceived and when you are with someone who in a way threatens that conception and perception of yourself it can be difficult.

As others have said its just a date. So just go on and try it. Worst that could happen it doesn't work out, best that could happen he turns out to be someone really special and you might even find stretching yourself to be very liberating.

LegacyUser

Deleted User wrote: »

What makes you uncomfortable and awkward? What sparks it off and how does this manifest itself in you? And when exactly? All the time? Only when you are in public? Only when around friends? And how to you feel or respond to this when it happens?

Is it - for example - the effeminate characteristics themselves that make you feel odd or awkward?

Or is it something totally different such as - for example - that you feel those characteristics call the attention of others to you - him - both of you - or your relationship - in ways that you dislike or feel uncomfortable with?

Because both of those examples would be massively different and as such any advice or diagnosis one might offer would differ too.

I may have had problems with the latter before. In fact I recall one date a long time ago where I was queuing for a club and my date skipped ahead on his own to see if we could both get in quicker. Then the guy behind me said "it's nice to have your boyfriend doing all the legwork". I was still in the closet at the time so I was really taken aback and denied we were on a date. I think I was just surprised that we were that obvious.

I haven't really encountered anything like that since, but I don't think I've a problem with being seen with a camp guy if that's what you're suggesting.

I think it's more that I view camp guys in a different light. Whilst I have friends that are camp, they wouldn't be close friends as I don't really have much in common. The same way I don't have any female friends I guess.

Although taking that approach, if I was straight I wouldn't be attracted to the majority of women solely based on their interests! Maybe I have built this image in my head of how guys should behave from years of being in the closet and lying to myself about being gay.

I have never been to a gay bar and I've always told people it's because I don't like the campness or drag queens. I'm starting to wonder if I it's just me trying to clutch on to my "manliness" and trying to prove something by not stepping foot in the door of the George!

Sorry, I tend to ramble off topic when I get going!

Annasopra

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Well he said he's tried dating camp guys and he just can't do it, he feels awkward and uncomfortable. The OP is already hesitant about asking the guy out because he's camp, so I figured if he's that annoyed by the guy now, that's unlikely to get any better by going out with the guy (assuming he says yes, obviously).

So basically he didn't say it. I read it completely differently without assumptions tbh

there's this guy I work with that I am really attracted to that is also interested in me. He's friendly, funny, interesting and attractive,

jobbridge4life

quandry9 wrote: »

I may have had problems with the latter before. In fact I recall one date a long time ago where I was queuing for a club and my date skipped ahead on his own to see if we could both get in quicker. Then the guy behind me said "it's nice to have your boyfriend doing all the legwork". I was still in the closet at the time so I was really taken aback and denied we were on a date. I think I was just surprised that we were that obvious.

I haven't really encountered anything like that since, but I don't think I've a problem with being seen with a camp guy if that's what you're suggesting.

I think it's more that I view camp guys in a different light. Whilst I have friends that are camp, they wouldn't be close friends as I don't really have much in common. The same way I don't have any female friends I guess.

Although taking that approach, if I was straight I wouldn't be attracted to the majority of women solely based on their interests! Maybe I have built this image in my head of how guys should behave from years of being in the closet and lying to myself about being gay.

I have never been to a gay bar and I've always told people it's because I don't like the campness or drag queens. I'm starting to wonder if I it's just me trying to clutch on to my "manliness" and trying to prove something by not stepping foot in the door of the George!

Sorry, I tend to ramble off topic when I get going!

Okay, honestly, in my head, after reading that all I could hear was *BINGO* but I'm not saying its 100% it, but if it was up to me to pick I'd go with your explanation above.

It seems to me that there is, at least a little bit, more going on here than your attraction to someone you normally wouldn't consider your type. It seems like you maybe find your self being a little restricted and there is, to my mind anyway, a real sense that you are eager to try and broaden your horizons and be a little more comfortable with being 'gay'. Go for it dude! Embrace that trait most stereotypically associated with 'masculinity' and be bold and brave.

ongarboy

quandry9 wrote: »

I have never been to a gay bar and I've always told people it's because I don't like the campness or drag queens. I'm starting to wonder if I it's just me trying to clutch on to my "manliness" and trying to prove something by not stepping foot in the door of the George!

I don't get this tbh. That's like saying I don't go to restaurants because I don't like potatoes. Sure, potatoes will be on the menu but so will many other choices. Likewise with a gay bar. I think if you were bothered by the fact that there will be some camp guys or drag queens there, this is a form of internalised homophobia. The majority of people who go to these bars do not have or constantly display the attributes you seem to fear. I've been frequenting gay bars in Dublin for 15 years on a weekly basis and it just so happens that I have no camp or drag queen friends. That's not intentional and I'd have no problem being friends with either but it just so happens every guy I've become good friends with just happened to be very regular acting (ie you wouldn't guess they were gay outside the scene). That's not them or me trying to put on a masculine act, it's just the way they/we naturally are. I've also met some great guys romantically over the years while single and also my significant other....none of which would have happened if I had your fear of "gay by association" and avoided such bars. Grindr wasn't around then either so the options were more limited!

Normally, the dilemma on forums like this is "I'm not attracted to camp guys" and that's ok. It's a sexual preference (we all have them). It's interesting in this case, that you are actually attracted to this particular guy who is camp and that is your dilemma. Again, it's the same internalised homophobia that prevents you from stepping inside the George that is the crux of the issue with this guy. The sad part is that this is all your own doing. Yes, you can blame environmental and social factors that made you this way or cite Panti's famous viral speech about oppression (which I believe most of us feel or have felt at some point) but at the end of the day, you are in charge of your own destiny. Why cut off your nose to spite your face? You will be the only one who is being short changed by this attitude but thankfully, you are the only one who can change that!

Rick_

quandry9 wrote: »

I have never been to a gay bar and I've always told people it's because I don't like the campness or drag queens. I'm starting to wonder if I it's just me trying to clutch on to my "manliness" and trying to prove something by not stepping foot in the door of the George!

My God, reading this is like seeing a post I would have written 10 years ago, when I hadn't ever been to a gay bar and had the same view. Then I actually went, saw how great the place was and how wrong my misconceptions were and... shock horror... I actually enjoyed myself!

I don't know why you feel like you have to "clutch" on to anything, it's not as if the gayness absorbs in to you the second you enter a gay bar and you suddenly become a super-effeminate man. Just try it and try and enjoy it for what it is, a place where you can hang out with fellow LGBT folk, have a dance if you want and, who knows, you might actually meet someone you like there. Plus, if you fancy a kiss with them you won't have to feel awkward as everyone there (mostly!) is the same as you... gay!

If you keep hold of all these negative feelings then they are going to bring you nothing but negativity.

Phantasos

pad e wrote: »

My God, reading this is like seeing a post I would have written 10 years ago, when I hadn't ever been to a gay bar and had the same view. Then I actually went, saw how great the place was and how wrong my misconceptions were and... shock horror... I actually enjoyed myself!

Yeah, but the terrible music though.

Annasopra

Phantasos wrote: »

Yeah, but the terrible music though.

It depends. Different places have different styles. Don't assume all gay bars only play 80s pop.

jobbridge4life

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

It depends. Different places have different styles. Don't assume all gay bars only play 80s pop.

...not that many places play 80s pop... and also 80s pop is a AMAZING.

Rick_

You don't like 80's pop? Are you sure you're really gay?

Ten of Swords

pad e wrote: »

You don't like 80's pop? Are you sure you're really gay?

Paddy!! :eek:

I laughed out loud when I read that and now people are staring at me

Rick_

I mean, come on, when you get your LGBT membership card they tell you "The only music you like from now on will be 80's pop". Seriously, if you don't like it, give your cards back!

irish_dave_83

My take on it -

You are more comfortable with "Masculine" guys, but they are your mates. The person that becomes your boyfriend doesn't have to like what you like, you just need to like each other. He is in the same boat if you think about it, just at the opposite end.

The fact that you wont be able to have a meaningful footie conversation with him doesn't mean you are not allowed to bore him with it, like any other significant other, and he may bore you by telling you about the latest celeb gossip etc. Most straight men deal with this on a daily basis as you suggested.

I think you are into "Camp" guys, but you compare them to "masc" guys which no doubt you have been influenced by all you life, which is where you need to start improving on. And even if you do improved on that, it may not work out with this guy, but it won't be because he doesn't conform to the alpha male stereotype.

Anyway that's my thoughts on it.

baby and crumble

irish_dave_83 wrote: »

My take on it -

You are more comfortable with "Masculine" guys, but they are your mates. The person that becomes your boyfriend doesn't have to like what you like, you just need to like each other. He is in the same boat if you think about it, just at the opposite end.

The fact that you wont be able to have a meaningful footie conversation with him doesn't mean you are not allowed to bore him with it, like any other significant other, and he may bore you by telling you about the latest celeb gossip etc. Most straight men deal with this on a daily basis as you suggested.

I think you are into "Camp" guys, but you compare them to "masc" guys which no doubt you have been influenced by all you life, which is where you need to start improving on. And even if you do improved on that, it may not work out with this guy, but it won't be because he doesn't conform to the alpha male stereotype.

Anyway that's my thoughts on it.

Don't forget though that everyone has layers. Not all camp guys will only want to talk celebs, and quite a lot of non uber masculine guys will have an interest in sports TBH 90% of my straight male friends know absolutely nothing about sports whatsoever but could bore the pants off you about cocktails. So there's that.

irish_dave_83

baby and crumble wrote: »

Don't forget though that everyone has layers. Not all camp guys will only want to talk celebs, and quite a lot of non uber masculine guys will have an interest in sports TBH 90% of my straight male friends know absolutely nothing about sports whatsoever but could bore the pants off you about cocktails. So there's that.

Ah I know, I didn't mean to box off people at all. My main massage is that opposites attract and tertiary interests are not that important when it comes down to staying together or breaking up.

LegacyUser

Thanks for all the replies.

I've had some time to think about it, and I've come to a realisation. I have absolutely no issues with camp guys, I just don't want to have a relationship with them.

This may seem like a harsh thing to say, but let me explain.

Lets say I was a straight woman. A lot of these women are attracted to "manly" men and this is not seen as an issue. It's just who they're attracted to. I get completely turned off when guys say things like "looking for a man to sweep me off my feet" or when they pout in photographs. I'm sure it would put a lot of women off as well if a straight guy said it!

I've started to think that I have a problem because the large majority of guys I've met on the dating scene are camp and I felt a bit alone. This was compounded anytime I mentioned that I was looking to masculine guys on dating apps and I'd get negative messages saying that I'm against camp guys.

But I don't think there is anything wrong in my behaviour, I just have a type and that type happens to be masculine lads. I have become frustrated at the lack of "my type" that I've encountered and I thought I could change and find someone worth dating.

I think I will have to struggle on trying to find that elusive manly guy!

Annasopra

OP if it was me I would have just actually put all my reservations aside and tried a relationship with the colleague.

Leonard Hofstadter

quandry925 wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies.

I've had some time to think about it, and I've come to a realisation. I have absolutely no issues with camp guys, I just don't want to have a relationship with them.

This may seem like a harsh thing to say, but let me explain.

Lets say I was a straight woman. A lot of these women are attracted to "manly" men and this is not seen as an issue. It's just who they're attracted to. I get completely turned off when guys say things like "looking for a man to sweep me off my feet" or when they pout in photographs. I'm sure it would put a lot of women off as well if a straight guy said it!

I've started to think that I have a problem because the large majority of guys I've met on the dating scene are camp and I felt a bit alone. This was compounded anytime I mentioned that I was looking to masculine guys on dating apps and I'd get negative messages saying that I'm against camp guys.

But I don't think there is anything wrong in my behaviour, I just have a type and that type happens to be masculine lads. I have become frustrated at the lack of "my type" that I've encountered and I thought I could change and find someone worth dating.

I think I will have to struggle on trying to find that elusive manly guy!

Can I be your man:P. I know what you mean, I'm just not attracted to camp/effeminate guys. Nothing personal, in fact I've grown to admire people like that, simply because they're being themselves and are not bowing to peer pressure and trying to dress/behave like someone they're not, but it's just not my type.

One of the things that was said to me when I came out to people was that I don't 'act gay' - as if that was a compliment:rolleyes:. I'm not sure what that means, other than I know I'm not like a stereotypical gay man, because I will always drink Guinness or some sort of beer in a pub rather than shots or spirits, I like cars, politics, going to the gym (though I'm definitely not in good shape!) and any kind of sport bar soccer. I've no interest in trashy TV (X-factor, Eurovision, soaps etc), drinking wine (unless at dinner), shopping, fashion, owning a cat and all the other things gay men are supposed to be interested in.

Anyway, like yourself, I'm still hoping there's someone masculine out there who will want to go to Munster matches with me and shares (at least some of) my interests in cars, sport and politics!

mansize

No fats, no fems, no Asians...

Well I'm not Asian...

Rick_

I'm only a little Asian when I'm drunk.



Sorry, I mean fem! Fem!