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PAYG gas meter-forced to use it

  • 14-03-2016 1:11pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭


    I've moved into a new apartment which has a payg gas meter installed. I didn't know about and don't want it because inconvenient, expensive and there's 9 euro owed on it already. Asked whether can go back to bill pay. No, the landlord is not in the position of changing it. Would I be right asking for €150-200 deduction because I was on bill pay it'd be cheaper by that amount. I'm a respectful person, I've always paid my bill but this is annoying!


Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 31,117 ✭✭✭✭snubbleste


    No.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    You've no legal right to make deductions to the rent due


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭padyjoe


    Hm, lovely and I have the fr1gging right to pay the bill and at least by 150 euros out of my pocket! I'm getting fed up with tenant's no rights, only dues, I'm paying the money and landlords laughing all the way to the bank. Or at least, is there any way around it? Don't tell me it's my responsibility to pay the amount owed on the card as well while I wasn't there.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,103 ✭✭✭Tiddlypeeps


    Is it written in your lease that you have to use the PAYG meter? If it isn't then I would think it's none of the landlords business what provider you go with for your gas, and you can just choose one that doesn't use PAYG meters.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭testaccount123


    Assuming you have a standard lease its none of your landlords business who you buy services for your home from. Go ahead and change providers.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    padyjoe wrote: »
    I've moved into a new apartment which has a payg gas meter installed. I didn't know about and don't want it because inconvenient, expensive and there's 9 euro owed on it already. Asked whether can go back to bill pay. No, the landlord is not in the position of changing it. Would I be right asking for €150-200 deduction because I was on bill pay it'd be cheaper by that amount. I'm a respectful person, I've always paid my bill but this is annoying!

    Buyer beware, or in this case renter beware. You failed to check out the energy situation before moving in so it has now come back to haunt you. It's not the landlord's fault you didn't do your research.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭padyjoe


    Ok, thank you! I got a bit carried away, I'm sorry! No, it's nothing about the payg meter in the lease. But if I want to change it, there's a charge of an approx. 200 euro for going back to a bill pay meter. Catch 22 there: if I go ahead and pay the charge, I lose the 1st saving, if it's unchanged, I lose money again. As of today, the payg meter staying in place. I've never thought it would be a problem for me one day! :-(


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭padyjoe


    athtrasna wrote: »
    It's not the landlord's fault you didn't do your research.

    Oh, come on, I have had enough getting a place at all, the last few weeks were exhausting on body and mind and especially this one never crossed my mind. :(


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,243 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    padyjoe wrote: »
    Oh, come on, I have had enough getting a place at all, the last few weeks were exhausting on body and mind and especially this one never crossed my mind. :(

    Regardless you picked this place and its up to you how you proceed. All the choices were yours.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,103 ✭✭✭Tiddlypeeps


    Have you stopped around to see if any other providers can do a better deal than the current one while using the meter? If the current provider are already the cheapest then unfortunately your only options are to either continue to use the meter or pay to have it removed and then pay to have it put back in when you leave which will probably cost way more than you will save.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,101 ✭✭✭spaceHopper


    Be careful here too, there may still a meter somewhere which is the true meter and any difference between it an the pay as you go one is on you. Make sure there isn't a master meter or get a reading!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,580 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Who is the account with and what rates are being charged? Is it a genuine Gas Networks Ireland meter? Are you happy that you have sole control of the supply?

    While some pre-pay meters are expensive, some charge fairly normal rates.
    athtrasna wrote: »
    Buyer beware, or in this case renter beware. You failed to check out the energy situation before moving in so it has now come back to haunt you. It's not the landlord's fault you didn't do your research.
    Harsh, but true.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 458 ✭✭REXER


    athtrasna wrote: »
    Buyer beware, or in this case renter beware. You failed to check out the energy situation before moving in so it has now come back to haunt you. It's not the landlord's fault you didn't do your research.

    I guess that its also not the landlords fault that he didn't disclose the facts either! :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,181 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    REXER wrote: »
    I guess that its also not the landlords fault that he didn't disclose the facts either! :rolleyes:

    This wouldn't be something in critical need of disclosure. I don't expect to be told what colour the walls are painted when I can clearly see it on the viewing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 458 ✭✭REXER


    L1011 wrote: »
    This wouldn't be something in critical need of disclosure. I don't expect to be told what colour the walls are painted when I can clearly see it on the viewing.

    Sure, sure, not a bother, you'll be grand so!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    REXER wrote: »
    Sure, sure, not a bother, you'll be grand so!

    Not exactly a major issue though


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,181 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    REXER wrote: »
    Sure, sure, not a bother, you'll be grand so!

    How much detail do you expect a landlord to go in to then?

    A PAYG meter is something visible on the wall. Not hard to miss.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 458 ✭✭REXER


    L1011 wrote: »
    How much detail do you expect a landlord to go in to then?

    A PAYG meter is something visible on the wall. Not hard to miss.

    How about the same level of detail as goes into the contents/inventry list for the house?

    Surely that would be reasonable, including a list of known/outstanding issues with the dwelling? Hell, why so defensive on this issue? Is it that you like surprises?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,181 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    REXER wrote: »
    How about the same level of detail as goes into the contents/inventry list for the house?

    Surely that would be reasonable, including a list of known/outstanding issues with the dwelling? Hell, why so defensive on this issue? Is it that you like surprises?

    I'm not being defensive - I'm pointing out that you have ridiculous expectations.

    A PAYG meter is not a "known issue" with a house, either.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 458 ✭✭REXER


    L1011 wrote: »
    I'm not being defensive - I'm pointing out that you have ridiculous expectations.

    A PAYG meter is not a "known issue" with a house, either.

    Its a material fact, like there is no satalite or cable, there is no landline, the heating does not work, the sink leaks etc.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,181 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    REXER wrote: »
    Its a material fact, like there is no satalite or cable, there is no landline, the heating does not work, the sink leaks etc.

    You have a very poor concept of what are and aren't serious issues

    The first three are basically irrelevant compared to the last two. A PAYG meter goes in with the first two.

    The heating not working would make the house legally unrentable.

    If you can come up with a coherent argument as to why a landlord should be responsible for telling someone something they can see at a viewing, come on with it - this one isn't sensible or going anywhere.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 458 ✭✭REXER


    L1011 wrote: »
    You have a very poor concept of what are and aren't serious issues

    The first three are basically irrelevant compared to the last two. A PAYG meter goes in with the first two.

    The heating not working would make the house legally unrentable.

    If you can come up with a coherent argument as to why a landlord should be responsible for telling someone something they can see at a viewing, come on with it - this one isn't sensible or going anywhere.

    My list was never meant to be "sensible" or exhaustive, rather it was meant as just a few examples!

    So I will ask the question again.

    How about the same level of detail that goes into the contents/inventry list is used for a list of the general condition of the house, the facilities and utilities?

    Surely that would be reasonable.

    After all, its fairly often that we see tenants here on Boards with all manner of complaints about houses/apartments/cottages/hovels with regards to heating/mold etc etc etc. (Please bear with me as I am not trying to generate a full list of possible issues here) ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,181 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    REXER wrote: »

    How about the same level of detail that goes into the contents/inventry list is used for a list of the general condition of the house, the facilities and utilities?

    Surely that would be reasonable.

    In the case of nearly every example you've given, it would be unnecessary and unreasonable hand-holding.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭cerastes


    Is it written in your lease that you have to use the PAYG meter? If it isn't then I would think it's none of the landlords business what provider you go with for your gas, and you can just choose one that doesn't use PAYG meters.

    You need the owners permission to change the meter though, the tenant may be able to go with any provider, assuming they can bill through that meter, which the landlord/owner has complete authority over getting changed or not.
    Assuming you have a standard lease its none of your landlords business who you buy services for your home from. Go ahead and change providers.

    As I said, if the provider accept the use of that meter, as above, the meter cant be changed without permission.
    padyjoe wrote: »
    Ok, thank you! I got a bit carried away, I'm sorry! No, it's nothing about the payg meter in the lease. But if I want to change it, there's a charge of an approx. 200 euro for going back to a bill pay meter. Catch 22 there: if I go ahead and pay the charge, I lose the 1st saving, if it's unchanged, I lose money again. As of today, the payg meter staying in place. I've never thought it would be a problem for me one day! :-(

    The thing is, who is this prepay meter with? if its directly with a service provider, then it may be no difference to a credit meter billing, ie Bord Gais charge exactly the same rates for their prepay as for their credit bills.
    Who is the meter with?
    There is probably a good reason the meter is in, ie hard experience on the landlords part.
    Figure out your use including the daily amount due for standing charge which is the same as a credit meter and then top it up for that amount, whats the big deal?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37 RebekahD


    I have a payg gas meter, and its not in plain sight, when first viewing the property I mistook it for simply a cupboard.
    The next viewing I checked in it mainly looking for damp and discovered the meter !
    To use it we first had to collect a card from a centra shop nearly half an hours walk away, come back put it in the machine to register it, then go back to the shop to top the card up as it couldn't be topped up at same time !
    Not a lot of shops do the gas top ups as do electric so it can be quite annoying, but hopefully that may change.
    I tried getting it removed but was told I would have to go through the main gas company, simply because its in a cupboard, despite the cupboard being easy to remove !


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭Walter H Price


    Regardless of what is wrong threatening to or actually withholding rent is grounds for eviction - put all of the problems in writing with a date that you want a response by and if you dont get it tell him you will have to go to the PTRB as heating not working or being fixed etc is a big issue.. A PAYG meter is not really a big issue, I get its annoying paying the standing charge but many landlords have gotten caught by unpaid utility bills, its not a personal reflection on you, just a landlord looking out for themselves


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    L1011 wrote: »
    You have a very poor concept of what are and aren't serious issues

    ....

    If you can come up with a coherent argument as to why a landlord should be responsible for telling someone something they can see at a viewing, come on with it - this one isn't sensible or going anywhere.

    Please leave the moderating to the mods. Thanks


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,580 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    L1011 wrote: »
    A PAYG meter is something visible on the wall. Not hard to miss.
    Many meters are in cupboards or dedicated housings.
    REXER wrote: »
    Its a material fact,
    Bus there are no mandatory disclosure rules.
    like there is no satalite or cable, there is no landline, the heating does not work, the sink leaks etc.
    The regulations do not require the first three, but do require the last two.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,316 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    REXER wrote: »
    Its a material fact, like there is no satalite or cable, there is no landline, the heating does not work, the sink leaks etc.
    Have seen people move in, and not think about broadband until settled.

    The PAYG meters are usually installed if the person is in arrears, or possibly a previous tenant did it without the landlord's knowledge thinking that they were getting "a good deal".


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭cerastes


    Regardless of what is wrong threatening to or actually withholding rent is grounds for eviction - put all of the problems in writing with a date that you want a response by and if you dont get it tell him you will have to go to the PTRB as heating not working or being fixed etc is a big issue.. A PAYG meter is not really a big issue, I get its annoying paying the standing charge but many landlords have gotten caught by unpaid utility bills, its not a personal reflection on you, just a landlord looking out for themselves

    Witholding rent, as you say is grounds for eviction, or starting the process.

    PRTB though? why? the heating is working, the OP just didnt think to ask what kind of meter, this does not cause the heating to not work.

    Also, the standing charge is exactly the same in daily rate for a pre pay meter with a major utility as it is for a bill thats issued from a credit (regular) meter. The only difference is, the daily amount owed for the standing charge is deducted regularily, daily.

    The OP has failed to come back and say what type (who owns) the meter, is it Bord Gais? electric Ireland? or someone else?

    Once they know that, they can enquire themselves that what Ive said is accurate.
    This in fact gives them some kind of control thats visible to them if they want to monitor their own usage and keep bills down, but the best way to do that is be concious of use.

    OP can you confirm the above? who is the account with? and where is it located relevant to the property?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭padyjoe


    Lads and lassies! First of all: apologies for losing my head! The meter with Electric Ireland. I have never used a payg gas meter before so I was unfamiliar with this. Cycling through the displays, the unit price is 6.135 cents, standing charge is 25 cents a day (so it's not extremly high) As of time of writing I have no gas again. I topped the card up with 20 euro this Monday, slid it into the meter, 12 euro was deducted instantly (had no clue why?), only 8 euro left to be used. Approx. 11 cubic metres was used already which equals to 8 euro. The meter won't offer me 5 euro emergency credit at all. I think I've got the answer why. Getting screen 27, the meter, if I'm reading it right, showing a debt of 485 euro. I'm shocked! And I have paid 12 euro already for someone else's debt. I haven been never ever told that I'm taking over a debt ridden meter. (To make me happier, I have a not working washing machine too.) I don't know why I deserve this? The apartment I used to live in was sold, had to move out, I'm in a small town, hard to get accomodation. Finally got one, not for cheap, had to ask for new oven (the old one was pure muck), had to ask for kitchen table and chairs, there was none, cannot do the washing, payg meter in debt. Call me a fool, I don't mind, renting is not easy these days. Wish I was a homeowner myself, it could have saved me many sleepless nights! :-(


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37 RebekahD


    padyjoe wrote: »
    Lads and lassies! First of all: apologies for losing my head! The meter with Electric Ireland. I have never used a payg gas meter before so I was unfamiliar with this. Cycling through the displays, the unit price is 6.135 cents, standing charge is 25 cents a day (so it's not extremly high) As of time of writing I have no gas again. I topped the card up with 20 euro this Monday, slid it into the meter, 12 euro was deducted instantly (had no clue why?), only 8 euro left to be used. Approx. 11 cubic metres was used already which equals to 8 euro. The meter won't offer me 5 euro emergency credit at all. I think I've got the answer why. Getting screen 27, the meter, if I'm reading it right, showing a debt of 485 euro. I'm shocked! And I have paid 12 euro already for someone else's debt. I haven been never ever told that I'm taking over a debt ridden meter. (To make me happier, I have a not working washing machine too.) I don't know why I deserve this? The apartment I used to live in was sold, had to move out, I'm in a small town, hard to get accomodation. Finally got one, not for cheap, had to ask for new oven (the old one was pure muck), had to ask for kitchen table and chairs, there was none, cannot do the washing, payg meter in debt. Call me a fool, I don't mind, renting is not easy these days. Wish I was a homeowner myself, it could have saved me many sleepless nights! :-(

    Hi it was the same when I moved into my house, I phoned bord gas and explained I had moved into the house and money was owed on the meter from previous tenant and I needed to set up an account with them and wasn't sure how, they explained everything to me and wiped the debt on the machine for me. It did take a couple of day's, which was annoying but it eventually happened, I only hope things sort out for you too.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭cerastes


    padyjoe wrote: »
    Lads and lassies! First of all: apologies for losing my head! The meter with Electric Ireland. I have never used a payg gas meter before so I was unfamiliar with this. Cycling through the displays, the unit price is 6.135 cents, standing charge is 25 cents a day (so it's not extremly high) As of time of writing I have no gas again. I topped the card up with 20 euro this Monday, slid it into the meter, 12 euro was deducted instantly (had no clue why?), only 8 euro left to be used. Approx. 11 cubic metres was used already which equals to 8 euro. The meter won't offer me 5 euro emergency credit at all. I think I've got the answer why. Getting screen 27, the meter, if I'm reading it right, showing a debt of 485 euro. I'm shocked! And I have paid 12 euro already for someone else's debt. I haven been never ever told that I'm taking over a debt ridden meter. (To make me happier, I have a not working washing machine too.) I don't know why I deserve this? The apartment I used to live in was sold, had to move out, I'm in a small town, hard to get accomodation. Finally got one, not for cheap, had to ask for new oven (the old one was pure muck), had to ask for kitchen table and chairs, there was none, cannot do the washing, payg meter in debt. Call me a fool, I don't mind, renting is not easy these days. Wish I was a homeowner myself, it could have saved me many sleepless nights! :-(
    RebekahD wrote: »
    Hi it was the same when I moved into my house, I phoned bord gas and explained I had moved into the house and money was owed on the meter from previous tenant and I needed to set up an account with them and wasn't sure how, they explained everything to me and wiped the debt on the machine for me. It did take a couple of day's, which was annoying but it eventually happened, I only hope things sort out for you too.


    OP,
    as RebekahD has said, you need to ring up the supplier, as its with Electric Ireland (EI, for brevity in the post), I suspect their rates are similar to Bord Gais for their domestic customers between prepay and credit meters and also how they administer it.
    The meter was likely put in to manage a previous tenants non payment and for this reason, probably the only way the tenant could get Gas.
    What you need to do is contact EI, keep all your receipts, state to them the date you changed over, they can go through it with you on the phone, what I did myself was locate their non 1890 no. (see, saynoto1890 website) and call them from that, they may even ring you back if you request it to save you money even if ringing their non 1890 number form a mobile unless you have some bundle (just another idea to save you money).
    I'd also be helpful to them, if they ask about the previous tenants overdue amount or location and you dont know, tell them you'll try get the information from the landlord and pass it on if you find it out).

    It looks as though, a set amount is being deducted to pay for any arrears amount owed by the previous tenant, so a percent of any top up by them (now you, but EI still thinks its them, is being deducted for arrears) in this regard you as the new occupant need to contact the utility suppliers (this is a good idea for any new occupant, actually it's essential and that is regardless of it being a prepay meter or a credit meter).
    YOU NEED TO RING THEM AND READ THE METER OFF WHILE ON THE PHONE AS THEY MAY REQUEST YOU PUSH BUTTONS IN A PARTICULAR SEQUENCE TO GET SOME VALUES AS THE METER READING PROBABLY ISNT DIRECTLY READABLE LIKE A MECHANICAL METER.
    I suggest you keep pen and paper handy and record information as you go through it, ie person on the phone, time/date of call, ref of the call if any, MPRN and new account number details if available.

    You can ask them the rates then also, they will likely be a simialr scenario as Bord Gais in that the rates are likely to be the same or very similar to their standard domestic rates (this probably wouldnt be the same for the likes of Energia or that kind of business, so at least you aren't with them).

    Once you get that all sorted, if you budget a set amount, weekly, bi weekly, monthly or whatever you decide and by an amount you have determined you need, you have no suprising bills.

    The difference with the gas and electric prepay is its usually necessary to top up the electric meter (in a prepay scenario) consistently by an amount and keep that regular due to continual use, the daily rate is also deducted for gas and electric prepay meters also, but as we all mostly use electric throughout the summer too, i.e. lights and other appliances, then that will have to be a more consistent payment, but it will be known and shouldnt change too much (but probably more in the winter).

    With gas prepay, it could be possible to not use it during the summer at all and use alternative means to heat water (immersion electric) and maybe not even use it for heating rooms.
    BUT
    the daily charge will still build up, so while you wont have to top it up, when you come to need to top it up, a debit will exist on the meter, if not using gas to heat water, then its not a bad idea to calculate the daily rate and pay that monthly anyway (it will be very little, you could likely be talking about €8 a month), but it could be a good way to build up credit on your account for the winter, to make regular monthly top ups to account for the daily deducted standard charge and build upo some credit (if you know that you will be there).

    (N.B. DO NOT DO CREDIT YOUR METER WITH MUCH BEFORE YOU CHANGE YOUR NAME OVER AS ANY CREDIT ON THE METER MAY LIKELY DISAPPEAR, OR IT WILL BE JUST AN INCONVENIENCE TO RECOVER, BUT KEEP RECEIPTS OF WHAT YOU DO TOP UP ALSO FOR YOUR RECORDS, WHEN THEY RESET IT, IT SHOULD DELETE ANY DEBT AND THE PERCENT DEDUCTION FOR ARREARS).

    Besides, it is cheaper to use gas to heat water if you time it right and especially if you have thermostat and timer control, otherwise you need to estimate your usage and set a timer, or if none of the above controls, then turn on as needed, and be concious of turning off when not, it should be cheaper to heat water that way as the per unit rate is less than a third of the cost for gas compared to electric.

    Also, there are no suprises come winter or colder times for space heating (rooms), as you'll know the heating is working and it wont have been idle/out of use for the warm period of the year (if any) and then suddenly expected to turn back on.
    (I know you say you have prepay gas) but it would be worth confirming what the setup is with the electric also and doing a meter reading anyway.

    this message will self-destruct in 5 seconds


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭padyjoe


    Thank you cerastes and to everyone! Very detailed explanation, at least makes me a bit more knowledgeable in this area! :-)


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