non-Christian children in denominational primary schools

scaryfairy

hi,

I really need some advice as I am at my wits' end. We have been living in SCD and our son, due to start J. infants in Sept 2017, has been on every possible preenrolment list in our area for ET schools so I am pretty confident that he will have a place come next year.

however, my job go relocated to Maynooth of all places. We may/may not get him into the ET there - probably not.

so he could end up in a catholic school.. what is the story for kids like him? ie non baptised, from a non-religious background. does he have to do the praying, religious education and whatnot? or can he get an exemption?

I would really appreciate any advice/feedback.
cheers

Moonbeam

Hi,
The waiting list for the Gaelscoil and ET are very long.
If he doesn't get in to the ET there is the all boys school which has a selection of nationalities and religions.
Ring them and ask what their policy is.
There is a Montessori primary school in Celbridge called The Glebe and a primary school not too far from Maynooth in KIlcloon which is a mixed school.

One eyed Jack

He won't have to do the praying or any of the rest of it even if he is accepted into a religious ethos school. I would suggest you call into the local schools in the area you're relocated to as depending upon the resources they have available in the school, different schools make different arrangements as to how they handle the issue of children whose parents wish to exempt their children from religion classes. Calling into the school would also give you a better feel for just how they might manifest the religious ethos of the school (it varies considerably between schools).

I'd contact the ET school(s) in the area first though to see what the story is with regard to their enrolment policies.

scaryfairy

thanks, that's very helpful if a bit depressing... a friend of mine has his sons in the all boys school, it sounds way more religious than what I would like (of course I am difficult to please in this respect!). They might have not tried to get an exemption (I think the mum doesn't mind) so will have to talk to the school. Their mission statement is very alien to me so I am well put off. I will follow your advice though and call into the school and see for myself what the story is.
I will be posting pre-enrolment forms on Monday to all ET schools along the commuter line... They are pretty clear on their website: usually first come first served + I think one of them does locals getting first priority..
thanks again

van_beano

Moonbeam wrote: »

The Glebe and a primary school not too far from Maynooth in KIlcloon which is a mixed school.

The Glebe is a fee paying school at €3,100 per year

http://www.schooldays.ie/school/the-glebe-primary-montessori-school-rollnumber-016242525

scaryfairy

do you have any experience with the Glebe school?

van_beano

scaryfairy wrote: »

do you have any experience with the Glebe school?

Nope, no experience of the school. We checked it out when our oldest was starting school. Ended up getting our closest Gaelscoil in Lucan, The Glebe would have been out 2nd choice. Got a tour of the school when it was prefabs, nice teachers and good setup. Not sure if they've moved into their permanent school yet.

scaryfairy

cheers van_beano. have emailed them just now. We will try to visit them if it doesn't sound like they have a waiting list of 100s... Gaelscoils sound really cool but we neither of us have any Irish (roots or language) so that limits us somewhat..
IF I get to keep my job, we should be able to afford this level of fees and there is hope (at least) that less people would have expressed interest... and I really like what I saw on their website & facebook pages. fingers crossed..

Midnight Sundance

Our school is a catholic one but we have a huge mix of different religions and beliefs.
We have a catholic ethos and therefore have to teach religion but we would never force anyone of different beliefs to take part.
If you Inform the teacher at the start of the year I'm
Sure she will accommodate you. You may have to provide an extra workbook for your child to
Complete when the others are doing religion.

scaryfairy

Thanks for the advice - that's a very reasonable approach. I will talk to teachers if we end up in an RC school (if we get accepted)

Moonbeam

van_beano wrote: »

The Glebe is a fee paying school at €3,100 per year

http://www.schooldays.ie/school/the-glebe-primary-montessori-school-rollnumber-016242525

I am aware of that.



It is still prefabs btw

Moonbeam

The all girls school and all boys school were not an option for me for so many reasons but they are not bad schools.
The girls and boys school will always have space.

scaryfairy

We drove around the area, and saw Glebe from the outside, prefabs as you say. The location doesn't really suit unfortunately. Did you manage to get into the ET school in the end?

Moonbeam

yeah it is literally in the middle of no where.
We go to the Gaelscoil but had to go to a different school for Junior infants as she was 14 months when we put her name down.

Whattimeisit

He won't be asked to partake in any of the religion lessons in the catholic school unless he wishes to! The majority of Catholic schools today have children attending of a different or no belief and are happy to accommodate them. Have a chat with the tea her when you are are enrolling....it'll be fine!

purplecow1977

Catholic schools are very accommodating. Ours isn't a wholly religious school. I teach religion sparingly, simply because I need to spend that time on other subjects. I have several children that don't partake in religion, so I give them English or Maths work to complete during this time.

GalwayGrrrrrl

I would advise checking with a few different schools to see how much religion is in the day. It may not be a case of sitting out during a religion lesson. My kids go to a catholic school (not in maynooth area) that seems to have religion through the day- prayers in the morning, before lunch etc. also a vast amount of time taken up with first communion prep in second class. Only two children out of 70 in the year did not make communion. Compare to a school down the road from outs which is catholic in ethos but has a large number of children from different cultures attending.

lazygal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Catholic schools are very accommodating. Ours isn't a wholly religious school. I teach religion sparingly, simply because I need to spend that time on other subjects. I have several children that don't partake in religion, so I give them English or Maths work to complete during this time.

It depends on the school. Four out of six schools in our area are Catholic and at least two are very unwilling to accommodate non-Catholics, even if they'll let you in at all. It can also depend on the teacher, some are more dogmatic than others. I've had teachers who claim their schools are inclusive tell me in the next breath they do nothing to facilitate opting out as 'its a catholic school, what do they expect'.

RainyDay

lazygal wrote: »

It depends on the school. Four out of six schools in our area are Catholic and at least two are very unwilling to accommodate non-Catholics, even if they'll let you in at all. It can also depend on the teacher, some are more dogmatic than others. I've had teachers who claim their schools are inclusive tell me in the next breath they do nothing to facilitate opting out as 'its a catholic school, what do they expect'.

Yes, it is worth looking into this further. Find out if the 'inclusive' school tells parents of non-Catholic children not to arrive until 10am on the days they go to Mass (a weekly event in 6th class for me). Find out if they include any non-religious sections in the Christmas play, to ensure that non-Catholic children can take part. Find out if they invite non-Catholic families to the tea/biccies event after the Communion/Confirmation.

Are you actually moving to Maynooth yourself?

If you are in Maynooth but open to schools in Celbridge (e.g Glebe) why not choose NKETS? This year they started taking two class-loads of junior infants for the first time so pressure on places has eased a bit - although demand is still high so act now. A really nice extension has already been built so the school accommodation is already there for the growing numbers.

Or if you are inclined to move to the area but not fixed on Maynooth, you could just move to Celbridge, have a handy school run, and drive to work in Maynooth.

If you need more info on the school, ask here or pm me.

scaryfairy

thanks so much for the thoughtful responses and tips

I will check out the NKETS - I must have ruled it out due to stuff I found online (that it's oversubscribed or sth) but to be honest my head is buzzing and got it wrong with all the options/information I am trying to gather.

thanks again

I am also trying to find a solution that would allow us to stay where we are - ie get a licence and a used car asap...

purplecow1977

lazygal wrote: »

It depends on the school. Four out of six schools in our area are Catholic and at least two are very unwilling to accommodate non-Catholics, even if they'll let you in at all. It can also depend on the teacher, some are more dogmatic than others. I've had teachers who claim their schools are inclusive tell me in the next breath they do nothing to facilitate opting out as 'its a catholic school, what do they expect'.

By 'facilitate opting out', what exactly do you suggest?

RainyDay wrote: »

Yes, it is worth looking into this further. Find out if the 'inclusive' school tells parents of non-Catholic children not to arrive until 10am on the days they go to Mass (a weekly event in 6th class for me). Find out if they include any non-religious sections in the Christmas play, to ensure that non-Catholic children can take part. Find out if they invite non-Catholic families to the tea/biccies event after the Communion/Confirmation.

I'd imagine if I was embarking on a weekly Mass, then the non-Catholic children are welcomed at school at normal time and can be supervised in an alternative classroom - or if parent wishes, be dropped to school after Mass. I don't see why this would be an issue at all.

I always ensure to invite any non-Catholics to the church for sacraments if they wish to watch. I have always invited them back for tea/coffee should this happen after Communion or Confirmation. It was an offer sometimes taken up, other times not.

I'm reluctant to do any Christmas play but actually did a play at Christmas this year, loosely based around the birth of Jesus (very loosely!). Ironically, my Mary was a non-Catholic who eagerly volunteered for the role. I checked this was okay with the parents and was delighted (as were the parents) that all were happy to participate. Perhaps this is because I have a laid back approach to the teaching of religion in my classroom.

I have taught my class, or rather encouraged children from other faiths to impart knowledge to the rest of the class, about other faiths and traditions - specifically in the last 12 months or so on Ramadan, Eid, Hinduism in general etc.

Sometimes I believe some people are not content unless getting worked up about one thing or another.

Understanding and tolerance goes a long way.

xfactorfan23 wrote: »

I would advise checking with a few different schools to see how much religion is in the day. It may not be a case of sitting out during a religion lesson. My kids go to a catholic school (not in maynooth area) that seems to have religion through the day- prayers in the morning, before lunch etc. also a vast amount of time taken up with first communion prep in second class. Only two children out of 70 in the year did not make communion. Compare to a school down the road from outs which is catholic in ethos but has a large number of children from different cultures attending.

We say a quick prayer most mornings. I've never recorded the length of time it takes, but I imagine it takes about 50 seconds. I don't do Grace before Meals, but it's a very short prayer and takes about 30 seconds I'd guess. First Communion and Confirmation take a bit of time alright, but I'm currently preparing my class for Confirmation and I'd gauge that in the last 4 weeks or so, I've spent maybe 2-3 hours in total on such preparation.

Perhaps in my original post about inclusivity, I should have included the word 'majority'.

The majority of Catholic schools are inclusive, but I cannot speak for all schools and therefore must allow for those who are not.

lazygal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

By 'facilitate opting out', what exactly do you suggest?.

Well, not having to listen to prayers or religious instruction during the day, or be put in a position of being made to feel different. How do you as a teacher facilitate opting out?

purplecow1977

lazygal wrote: »

Well, not having to listen to prayers or religious instruction during the day, or be put in a position of being made to feel different. How do you as a teacher facilitate opting out?

No problem. Drop your child in 5 minutes after school starting time.
Religious instruction? No problem - here's a some comprehension work to complete for the next 20 minutes.
A position of being made feel different? I suppose the children who don't get picked for the school football team feel similarly?

lazygal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

No problem. Drop your child in 5 minutes after school starting time.
Religious instruction? No problem - here's a some comprehension work to complete for the next 20 minutes.
A position of being made feel different? I suppose the children who don't get picked for the school football team feel similarly?

That's a really interesting perspective on a teacher's view of children's constitutional rights. Gives me a good insight into inclusiveness in denominational schools.
Drop them in late and compare them to children not being picked for a team. Inclusiveness.

purplecow1977

lazygal wrote: »

That's a really interesting perspective on a teacher's view of children's constitutional rights. Gives me a good insight into inclusiveness in denominational schools.
Drop them in late and compare them to children not being picked for a team. Inclusiveness.

You asked about facilitating opting out.

I'm not sure if you are opting out of something you can complain about not being inclusive? Perhaps there's something I'm misunderstanding that you could clarify?

I'm also not sure otherwise that you've offered any realistic solutions to opting out

"not having to listen to prayers or religious instruction during the day, or be put in a position of being made to feel different."

lazygal

No, you've just confirmed what most teachers in denominational schools have told me. Opting out is not really possible and isn't really welcomed, and marks children out so inclusiveness is a myth.
It's usually followed up with "these are Catholic schools, you know" when their claims of Inclusiveness are explored.

Op good luck with the schools.

purplecow1977

lazygal wrote: »

No, you've just confirmed what most teachers in denominational schools have told me. Opting out is not really possible and isn't really welcomed, and marks children out so inclusiveness is a myth.
It's usually followed up with "these are Catholic schools, you know" when their claims of Inclusiveness are explored.

Op good luck with the schools.

Teachers are not to blame for the religious aspect of schools. I did not devise the ethos or mission statement.

I'm disappointed by your comment actually as I gave you an honest account as to how I try to facilitate all of those in my class to the best of my ability, when really you were just waiting for the 'there isn't really any opt out' comment.

lazygal

I'm disappointed by teachers in this. They're an enormously powerful lobby group yet never protest about religion in schools. Ever.

purplecow1977

lazygal wrote: »

I'm disappointed by teachers in this. They're an enormously powerful lobby group yet never protest about religion in schools. Ever.

I'd rather my fellow colleagues were given equal pay for equal work, or that I don't have to judge and assess my co-workers, or that the children in my class are in class sizes where they can grow and learn. My main priorities are things that affect my profession.

Parents aren't going to fight for those (other than maybe class size) - the religion aspect is largely their responsibility.

lazygal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

I'd rather my fellow colleagues were given equal pay for equal work, or that I don't have to judge and assess my co-workers, or that the children in my class are in class sizes where they can grow and learn. My main priorities are things that affect my profession.

Parents aren't going to fight for those (other than maybe class size) - the religion aspect is largely their responsibility.

Again gives me a great insight into the priorities of teachers.

purplecow1977

lazygal wrote: »

Again gives me a great insight into the priorities of teachers.

I'm glad that's helpful

aunt aggie

lazygal wrote: »

Again gives me a great insight into the priorities of teachers.

I'm fairly certain the constitution takes the same stance. Parents as primary care givers are responsible for moral and religious education.

If parents want more non denominational schools, then they have to continue to campaign for them. Teachers can go into any type of school and they have to adapt to the ethos that the BOM and Principal want promoted. It's part of the job. Teachers have very little say in how schools are managed. Parents would have a lot more influence, and that's the way it should be.

TJD Murphy

I wouldn't be getting too worried about your local Catholic schools. The values taught and instilled in children in schools with a Catholic ethos are not a threat to anyone. Some have been run by religious orders with over two centuries of experience in teaching children. As someone who works with children and visits a lot of schools, I can say confidently that our Catholic schools are some of the finest in Europe, if not the world, and they do not educate only Catholics.

It seems the media obsession with Catholicism and Catholic education is making a lot of parents (mainly affluent and under 40) paranoid and apprehensive. In the UK, which doesn't suffer from such introspection and anti-Catholic propaganda, places in "Catholic schools" are highly sought after because of their values and reputations. The Catholic school is still a very popular choice here among secular parents for the same reasons. I know of several areas where the divestment of Catholic schools has been postponed or stopped due to objections from parents and whole communities- you will hear very little of this in the media.

We are known the world over for our fantastic educators, many of them Catholic clergy. One school in Malaysia with which I'm familiar is run by the De La Salle Brothers and has an enrolment of over 60% children from Muslim families. When asked how this arrangement works, the sole Irish DLS missionary who still works there said: "We're educators, not proselythisers".

Try not to pass on your hang-ups to your children. Catholic schools are doing a great job and are very inclusive. There are more important matters affecting our children that should be mobilising our communities, including drugs use, teen suicide and the sexualisation and commercialisation of children.

RainyDay

aunt aggie wrote: »

I'm fairly certain the constitution takes the same stance. Parents as primary care givers are responsible for moral and religious education.

If parents want more non denominational schools, then they have to continue to campaign for them. Teachers can go into any type of school and they have to adapt to the ethos that the BOM and Principal want promoted. It's part of the job. Teachers have very little say in how schools are managed. Parents would have a lot more influence, and that's the way it should be.

Except that EVERY school is managed by a teacher (the principal).

purplecow1977

RainyDay wrote: »

Except that EVERY school is managed by a teacher (the principal).

Managed day to day by a teacher/principal but ultimately the patronage is the decider. Many Boards of Management have a priest as their chairperson.

RainyDay

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Managed day to day by a teacher/principal but ultimately the patronage is the decider. Many Boards of Management have a priest as their chairperson.

Yes and no.

Yes, the Patron sets the ethos, and the BoM plays a key role in enrolment policy and more. But the day to day management, and all the inclusiveness issues that arise day to day would be largely down to the principal. The decision about how to deal with students who won't be going to Mass will be down to the Principal. The decision about whether the Christmas concert will be entirely religious-based or have some secular component will be down to the Principal. The tone for dealing with students from non-religious families will be set by the Principal.

uck51js9zml2yt

We're not RC and my son is in Junior infants in an RC school.
He's taking part in RE classes for now though we had the choice of supervised classes when it was on or drawing in the class and the principal gave me the book in advance.
We'll opt out fully for communion.
Being in the class and not taking part, he'd learn a lot anyway and he won't grow horns.:)
I'm also on the Board of Management.
About 10% of our students are not RC.

scaryfairy

Thanks for all these responses. They gave me a better understanding of how actually it works in RC schools and what those from the system see as reasonable accommodation of those from non religious backgrounds.

While I fully appreciate that things are changing, and that people do try - the current setup is just inherently alien to us.
We just cannot do RC "light" - it just won't work, it's so against our background. Not because of quality of teaching (I know it's good) but this ethos thing, and the concept of a priest in any way interfering with our child's education... No.

Also just got our confirmation of pre enrolment from Castleknock ET. Number 287, we are! It's rather depressing, just makes me more determined to stay where we are where we should have options come Sept 2017.
So thanks again for all the responses, it has been enlightening!

pwurple

scaryfairy wrote: »

the concept of a priest in any way interfering with our child's education... No.

I assume you worded it that way intentionally? Smidge melodramatic perhaps? That sounds like old fellas come in and stick their hands down the children's pants for 30 minutes a day, instead of what actually happens, where the teacher reads a Noah's ark story and they do some colouring.

scaryfairy

I meant exactly what I wrote - don't find any of the RE innocent (ie it is all contributing to shaping young minds towards a belief that I cannot share). Am I overreacting? Probably, yes, but it's important for me that I can go along the fundamental principles of the school my child attends.

I don't expect to be understood - I wanted to see what's happening on the ground in RC schools, got some very thoughtful responses and it helps us making a decision for next year. That's all I wanted - not to offend nor to pick a fight.

scaryfairy

And no, didn't mean "interfering" in the sexual sense, only spiritual, colouring book or prayers

wintertime

Hi everyone. Sorry to bump up this thread but The Glebe Primary School closed down over the summer and the Parents and Teachers then set up Weston Primary School in July for anyone that was trying to get in touch. PM me if you have any queries. regards

van_beano

wintertime wrote: »

Hi everyone. Sorry to bump up this thread but The Glebe Primary School closed down over the summer and the Parents and Teachers then set up Weston Primary School in July for anyone that was trying to get in touch. PM me if you have any queries. regards

I'm not doubting you or anything as I'm sure you're more in the know than I am about this but The Glebe website, Facebook etc is still active plus they were hiring staff back in April 2016. Has this new Weston school taken over everything Glebe orientated?

wintertime

van_beano wrote: »

I'm not doubting you or anything as I'm sure you're more in the know than I am about this but The Glebe website, Facebook etc is still active plus they were hiring staff back in April 2016. Has this new Weston school taken over everything Glebe orientated?

We r aware that there is glebe stuff still active online. Thanks for letting me know anyway. We are a new separate school. Regards

wintertime

van_beano wrote: »

I'm not doubting you or anything as I'm sure you're more in the know than I am about this but The Glebe website, Facebook etc is still active plus they were hiring staff back in April 2016. Has this new Weston school taken over everything Glebe orientated?

We r aware that there is glebe stuff still active online. Thanks for letting me know anyway. We are a new separate school. Regards

scaryfairy

Interesting... emailed Glebe a month or so ago but only got an automatic response...