Set up a National Test for firearm ownership

KingBrian2

I've been reading through the old pages from the Revolutions Papers that have been distributed across the country and as I was examining the various articles I noticed a lot of content about men with firearms now of course the gvt of the time was attempting to reign these people in.

I was surprised by just how frequent the use of firearms were in Ireland during that period. Many of whom were not part of any militia only casual users of firearms for everyday life. The gvt would give out warnings that anyone holding a firearm or in possession of a firearm would be arrested. Now this got me wondering about how in America to this very day people holding fire arms are still considered controversial among many politicians in Washington.

Since holding a firearm is very important to many peoples lives yet you hardly want dangerous people to hold such weapons would not a sensible approach to firearms simple be to have a National test that those who pass it are permitted to have them, does that fail are denied them otherwise the regular old balances and checks allow too many people without sufficient awareness of the dangerous of the firearm to be granted one just like that.

So how about that a test to allow anyone who wants a firearm to possess one.

Sparks

(a) There's already a requirement in the law that the licence applicant provide proof of competency (there are several ways to provide that proof, including courses, being trained in a club, and so on).
(b) What you're suggesting is the licencing of firearms for use in self-defence which isn't permitted in this country (and the way that it's been done makes it illegal to have one for that purpose).
(c) Nobody in Ireland gets granted a firearms licence "just like that".
(d) It's not even legal for a Garda to grant a firearms licence if it'd endanger the public or the peace to do so (not to mention the point that they're not that sadistic that they'd just grant licences to the incompetent and sit back to see how long it took for a bad accident to happen).
(e) Nobody in Ireland gets licences for weapons. Ever.

Also, any actual test would require a metric, a threshold, licenced and trained testers, testing facilities, training facilities and courses and instructors, not to mention that all of this would require a pretty sizable change to primary firearms legislation in Ireland with reference to the relevant EU legislation (because that overrides ours and your suggestion would need to be tweaked to avoid conflicting with the EU directives). So... not quite so simple really.

TL;DR - we actually have a pretty decent system already. Have had since around 1815.

KingBrian2

We have an appalling level of gun crime in this country. Farmers in the country are using guns against hardened criminal gangs. The dissident threat is made up of gun merchants and the drug crowd also have guns. Everyone has guns a lot of them possess them illegally. A test would root out those that are a danger to society.

Grolschevik

KingBrian2 wrote: »

We have an appalling level of gun crime in this country.

Not really, in comparative terms.

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Farmers in the country are using guns against hardened criminal gangs.

Are they? Apart from one well-publicised case, examples?

KingBrian2 wrote: »

The dissident threat is made up of gun merchants and the drug crowd also have guns. Everyone has guns a lot of them possess them illegally.

1) No, they don't.
2) Yes, illegally.

KingBrian2 wrote: »

A test would root out those that are a danger to society.

How would a test root out those with and willing to use illegally held guns?

KingBrian2

Grolschevik wrote: »

Not really, in comparative terms.



Are they? Apart from one well-publicised case, examples?



1) No, they don't.
2) Yes, illegally.



How would a test root out those with and willing to use illegally held guns?

Only the other day I read that farmers are setting up patrols to protect themselves from burglars. As for test system people who have guns or want to own one for personal protection would go to a Gardaí station and proceed to complete a test. IQ level, details such as name and address and follow up by performing some basic understandings of the use of the firearm and reasons for possessing it. If the Gardaí is satisfied that he is aced the test he can be permitted it. Kinda of like a driving test except for guns.

goz83

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Only the other day I read that farmers are setting up patrols to protect themselves from burglars. As for test system people who have guns or want to own one for personal protection would go to a Gardaí station and proceed to complete a test. IQ level, details such as name and address and follow up by performing some basic understandings of the use of the firearm and reasons for possessing it. If the Gardaí is satisfied that he is aced the test he can be permitted it. Kinda of like a driving test except for guns.

No test will stop criminals from using illegally held firearms. Think of how many banned drivers who continue to drive cars on out roads with tax, insurance, or an nct. There are people in our society who just don't care about the law and there is no test to help there.

Grolschevik

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Only the other day I read that farmers are setting up patrols to protect themselves from burglars. As for test system people who have guns or want to own one for personal protection would go to a Gardaí station and proceed to complete a test. IQ level, details such as name and address and follow up by performing some basic understandings of the use of the firearm and reasons for possessing it. If the Gardaí is satisfied that he is aced the test he can be permitted it. Kinda of like a driving test except for guns.

1) Anecdote.

2) Read or re-read post 2.

KingBrian2

We can do better than an 1815 law. We have prisoners that come out of Mountjoy regularly and never return. Access to firearms for these guys are way too easy.

Grolschevik

KingBrian2 wrote: »

We can do better than an 1815 law. We have prisoners that come out of Mountjoy regularly and never return. Access to firearms for these guys are way too easy.

You do understand the difference between legal and illegal, right?

Oh, and re-read post 2.

Sparks

KingBrian2 wrote: »

We have an appalling level of gun crime in this country.

...which has nothing to do with firearms licencing and honestly, there's nothing else you can put into the Firearms Act that would give the Gardai more powers with regard to firearms.

Farmers in the country are using guns against hardened criminal gangs.

No, they're really not. The gun crime in this country is primarily urban, for a start.

The dissident threat is made up of gun merchants and the drug crowd also have guns. Everyone has guns a lot of them possess them illegally.

I'm pretty sure that all the people you're talking about there have their guns illegally, since (a) most of the specific types they have can't be licenced here, and (b) "to facilitate my illegal activities" is not classified as a "good reason" in the context of section 4(a) of the Firearms Act as amended.

A test would root out those that are a danger to society.

Yes, that test is called the "Are you a drug dealer" test and is generally adminstered by the Gardai using the ERU and lots of handcuffs. When we remember to allocate funding in the budget for that sort of thing.

Sparks

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Only the other day I read that farmers are setting up patrols to protect themselves from burglars.

Only the other day I read that bears with very little brain like honey for breakfast and are friends with small pigs.

As for test system people who have guns or want to own one for personal protection would go to a Gardaí station and proceed to complete a test. IQ level, details such as name and address and follow up by performing some basic understandings of the use of the firearm and reasons for possessing it. If the Gardaí is satisfied that he is aced the test he can be permitted it. Kinda of like a driving test except for guns.

I'm sorry, you want someone to ace an IQ test administered by a Garda so that they can have a gun to shoot other people with?

I think applying for such a test would constitute failure...

Sparks

KingBrian2 wrote: »

We can do better than an 1815 law.

Not really. We rewrote it slightly in 1925, then modified it a dozen or so times (I think we're up to 16 Acts, 2 EU directives, somewhere north of 60 SIs, a few different revisions of AGS guidelines and a partridge in a pear tree feeling very nervous about that chap with the air rifle and the copy of River Cottage Forever who's giving him a dirty look).

Honestly, our firearms law is a bit more comprehensive than you think. Our primary requirement with it is not to totally rewrite it; it's just to take all of it and put it, unchanged, in one single Act so it can be read as one single document (which currently is not the case, which has rather a large amount to do with why everyone from target shooters to senior high court justices to the law reform commission to the joint oireachtas committee for justice has called for it to be restated in one single act. Oh, and yeah, we're currently doing that, with a panel consisting of all the shooting sports bodies, the hunters, the Gardai, the insurers, the department of sport, and so on, chaired by the Minister for Justice (via the Firearms Unit of the Department of Justice)). So the bits that need tweaking to fix drafting errors and whoopsies? They'll be sorted.

But actual changes to how it fundamentally operates? Yeah, not really needed.

MarkAnthony

Victor

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Only the other day I read that farmers are setting up patrols to protect themselves from burglars. As for test system people who have guns or want to own one for personal protection would go to a Gardaí station and proceed to complete a test. IQ level, details such as name and address and follow up by performing some basic understandings of the use of the firearm and reasons for possessing it. If the Gardaí is satisfied that he is aced the test he can be permitted it. Kinda of like a driving test except for guns.

Do you mean a test that people could rehearse for?

goz83

MarkAnthony wrote: »

I get the impression that this happens in some of our stations around the country. One man deciding he doesn't like the idea of civilians owning sporting and hunting firearms red stamps applications, or does nothing at all, meaning the application simply doesn't progress.

The laws here for someone to legally aquire a firearms license are very strict. An IQ test is just ridiculous. There are plenty of nutters out there with high IQ that I wouldn't trust with a spoon, let alone a 12 Gauge shotgun. We don't need further restrictions and silly tests. As Sparks has mentioned already, we need the myriad of legislation and acts to be brought into one legible, coherent act and to go from there.

Fred Swanson

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goz83

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Well in theory, yes, that would be super, but in practice, it seems to be very different. If you hear nothing within 90 days, then it's apparently considered a refusal. At the same time people are getting licences nearly a year after they applied with all the paperwork done properly.

I was at the range earlier this week and the instructor was telling me that one of the members just got his shotgun license after 9 months! He wasn't aware of any issues with paperwork.