Bullshido (martial arts bullsh*t)

JustShon

I was watching a few videos last night on some martial arts bullsh*t, I thought it would make for a good thread.

People can post in here about some of the nonsense they see that permeates the martial arts world. So-called experts teaching techniques that would get people hurt in reality.

There were loads of videos of guys who claimed (and in some cases genuinely believed) that they could knock people out without touching them by using chi energy.

The vids are hilarious, with students doing exaggerated backflips then landing on their back as their "master" thrusts his palm at them from 5 feet away.

As a newby I'd also like to pose a question to more experience folks: how can an inexperienced person such as myself spot a phony instructor? How do I know if the "system" they're teaching is bullsh*t? I mean some of it is glaringly obvious but some of them are passable to the inexperienced eye.

SVJKarate

JustShon wrote: »

How do I know if the "system" they're teaching is bullsh*t?

There are often subtle clues . . .

Speedwell

Carlos Gracie's "Gracie Diet", and other similar acid/alkaline balance nonsense diets http://graciediet.com/ Nothing against the Gracies as martial artists (I don't know enough about them to criticise), but that diet... sister, please.

Mellor

The Gracie diet has nothing to do with martial arts though. It's just something coined by one of the older Gracies.
It's like linking boxing to bull**** becuse of kitchen appliance George Foreman is flogging

DrPhilG

JustShon wrote: »

I
The vids are hilarious, with students doing exaggerated backflips then landing on their back as their "master" thrusts his palm at them from 5 feet away.

There's also a video where one of those nuts offered a cash prize to anybody who could defeat him. He took a fight with an amateur MMA fighter who proceeded to beat him senseless in under a minute.

Speedwell

Mellor wrote: »

The Gracie diet has nothing to do with martial arts though.

Well, I agree with you and that's why I put it in this thread. Go tell the Gracies it has nothing to do with martial arts and see how far you get. :P

Subcomandante Marcos

Speedwell wrote: »

Carlos Gracie's "Gracie Diet", and other similar acid/alkaline balance nonsense diets http://graciediet.com/ Nothing against the Gracies as martial artists (I don't know enough about them to criticise), but that diet... sister, please.

All you need to know about the Gracies in terms of martial arts is that Gracie Jiu Jitsu is pretty much the most important aspect of mixed martial arts and one of the most effective martial arts on the planet in a real fight.

Subcomandante Marcos

Someone recently started teaching Hapkido classes near me, I'd heard mixed things about the art so decided to check out their social media stuff.

I nearly crapped myself laughing at them.

Mellor

Speedwell wrote: »

Well, I agree with you and that's why I put it in this thread.

I think you misunderstood, or maybe I wasn't clear. I was saying the Gracie diet has nothing to do with the Gracie martial art. It's complete separate. I'd guess that a lot of BJJ guys have never even heard of it.

Go tell the Gracies it has nothing to do with martial arts and see how far you get.

I honestly don't think most of them would care. As far I'm aware, Rickson didn't followed it, neither does Kron. Good luck telling either of them they are doing it the Gracie way

RoboRat

I have studied a fair few MA's and I have always taken something from each one.

Some of the training was absolute ballsology such as disarming knife wielding attackers when they came at you from very specific angles. I used to do Bushido and loved it until they brought in a guy who was teaching these energy attacks.

In saying that I learned a lot from Bushido in regards to kicking and certain punches. I do feel however that MA's that rely on choreographed attacks and kata's are for the most part, useless. Being attacked and fighting in general is chaos and you need a good level of full contact training for it to be worthwhile in such instances.

My personal experience of different MA's are that Judo, Muay Thai, Boxing and BJJ are the most effective and that is probably due to the sparring involved. People may argue that BJJ is useless in a street fight but I disagree. You are not going to pull guard but should you end up on the ground, and a lot of fights do, you are the master and you control the fight there. People who don't do BJJ also have no idea about the stand up side of it either.

I think anybody who does a MA will learn, but you can only take certain facets from certain MA's that are somewhat applicable and you need to have the common sense to disregard the bullshido parts.

JustShon

DrPhilG wrote: »

There's also a video where one of those nuts offered a cash prize to anybody who could defeat him. He took a fight with an amateur MMA fighter who proceeded to beat him senseless in under a minute.

Saw that one. It wasn't even funny, it was just sad.

DrPhilG

JustShon wrote: »

Saw that one. It wasn't even funny, it was just sad.

It was downright bizarre.

Initially I wondered who was more deluded. Was the teacher just taking the mick out of the students and brainwashing them into thinking that he was doing something legit, or was the teacher completely deluded himself and actually believed in his teaching and "power". If that was the case then why were the students flying around like idiots?

When the details of the challenge emerged it was clear that the teacher genuinely believed his art and at that point I almost felt sorry for him as he suffered not only a physical beating, but also the collapse of his entire belief.

JustShon

DrPhilG wrote: »

It was downright bizarre.

Initially I wondered who was more deluded. Was the teacher just taking the mick out of the students and brainwashing them into thinking that he was doing something legit, or was the teacher completely deluded himself and actually believed in his teaching and "power". If that was the case then why were the students flying around like idiots?

When the details of the challenge emerged it was clear that the teacher genuinely believed his art and at that point I almost felt sorry for him as he suffered not only a physical beating, but also the collapse of his entire belief.

Apparently the guy is still selling classes so the collapse of his entire belief didn't happen even after the beating.

I watched a few discussions with various martial arts experts on the students' reactions etc and the general consensus seems to be that there's a level of brainwashing involved, be it intentional or unintentional.

It's similar to those faith healers who put their hand on someone's head, yell about god for a while then shout something, push the person and they fall unconscious. The students of these ki / chi energy "experts" believe in it so completely that they react how they do.

It was pointed out too that all the demonstrations were done against the "black belts" of the school in question. In other words the students who had been in the school for the longest and thus were the most brainwashed.

DrPhilG

JustShon wrote: »

Apparently the guy is still selling classes so the collapse of his entire belief didn't happen even after the beating.

Ah well I don't feel bad for him anymore then.

Surely there would be a huge temptation for people having seen that video to go in and sign up, just to batter a few of them into common sense?

JustShon

DrPhilG wrote: »

Ah well I don't feel bad for him anymore then.

Surely there would be a huge temptation for people having seen that video to go in and sign up, just to batter a few of them into common sense?

All they have to do is refuse to spar and then if someone hits them it's assault.

Reminds me of a vid of a fake BJJ black belt getting called out, a real black belt went into his "school" and asked to roll with him for a bit and the guy outright refused then just repeated "Thank you for visiting my school." until the lad got fed up and left.

Also I imagine few people are arsed. Would you really go out of your way to go kick the sh*te out of a few crazies? There's an awful lot of bullsh*t martial arts out there, you could be a while if you wanted to embarrass every so-called school.

arybvtcw0eolkf

JustShon wrote: »

I was watching a few videos last night on some martial arts bullsh*t, I thought it would make for a good thread.

People can post in here about some of the nonsense they see that permeates the martial arts world. So-called experts teaching techniques that would get people hurt in reality.

In reality, depends on what you call reality.. Well most styles have things which would get you hurt in reality.

If reality is 'the street' then I'd start with BJJ, pulling guard would have you battered 'on the street'.

The styles which are good on the ground, ie wrestling, BJJ, Judo etc will get you hurt on the ground if the unskilled opponent is willing to bite you, or they've a mate you'll kick you in the head while you're trying to work out an Americana/Ude Guruma on the ground :P

Boxing is brilliant, IMO the very best of all the combat sports. But punching someone bareknuckle is very inefficient and you run a huge risk of a bone injury.

Some things are downright lethal ~ boxing, you run the risk of seriously hurting or killing someone.

Judo, a lot of throw's but most esp Osoto Gari done on the pavement would likely cause very serious head injury or death.

When I was kickboxing we had self defense techniques on our grading syllabus, they were completely bullsh*t but we had to learn them.

But realistically a lot of styles have something to offer, Akido and Ninjitsu for example ~ I'd use their standing wrist locks in work all the time and I've never trained in either style and I've never done wrist locks in my Judo or BJJ training.

Kendo, I'll never fight someone with a bamboo sword but I love looking at Kendo in competition ~ its fecking brilliant and very enjoyable

There ya go, there's loads because its a boring good Friday and I've nothing else to so :pac:

BOHtox

Orlando Wonderful Sibilant wrote: »

In reality, depends on what you call reality.. Well most styles have things which would get you hurt in reality.

If reality is 'the street' then I'd start with BJJ, pulling guard would have you battered 'on the street'.

The styles which are good on the ground, ie wrestling, BJJ, Judo etc will get you hurt on the ground if the unskilled opponent is willing to bite you, or they've a mate you'll kick you in the head while you're trying to work out an Americana/Ude Guruma on the ground :P

Let's say the attacker ran towards you and ended in mount position. Then, being able to recover guard, where you can break posture and keep distance, is definitely advantageous to an unskilled attacker. From guard you can try a sweep or try find a loose arm, leg or exposed neck to lock in a sub. I agree with you though that if there's two attackers then you're goosed

arybvtcw0eolkf

BOHtox wrote: »

Let's say the attacker ran towards you and ended in mount position. Then, being able to recover guard, where you can break posture and keep distance, is definitely advantageous to an unskilled attacker. From guard you can try a sweep or try find a loose arm, leg or exposed neck to lock in a sub. I agree with you though that if there's two attackers then you're goosed

Thanks for agreeing with me on the last point

The rest, well it doesn't quite work out how we drill them in a club.

The club can not ever replicate the violence and intent to hurt which you'll find in a street attack. In this eventuality you won't have the time, sometimes the space or where with all to do all these things before you're seriously hurt or someone (hopefully) breaks up the fight. Assuming YOU've got the advantage from the get-go or on lookers let you work your magic then yes you've got an advantage over an unskilled attacker.

All that said, are you prepared to seriously f*ck up your attacker more then they want to f*ck you up?.. I'm often asked 'who usually wins a street fight, without knowing all the factors I'll always say 'The one who wants to win will usually win.

I'm not saying BJJ is useless, I'm training BJJ since 2005 & Judo slightly longer and love training in both. But I'm also working bar & nightclub doors over twenty years so my expectations are pretty grounded.

On paper the trained martial artist should have many advantages but there are too many variables to make it a black and white argument.

I'm giving probably worse case scenario's but in my experience they're the most realistic if we're talking about realities.

Nothing worse than fighting someone you thought you'd easily handle and fight they've all the fight of a rabid dog in them with a serious intend on harming you.

Mellor

Orlando Wonderful Sibilant wrote: »

If reality is 'the street' then I'd start with BJJ, pulling guard would have you battered 'on the street'.

It's definitely an awful option in a spot where someone else can stick a boot in. Completely agree there. Pulling guard, to try and sweep is a really dumb approach. Guard pulling is a sports technique.
But that said, pulling guard is only one aspect of BJJ. It's a bit odd to write off everything else based on hands down the least useful aspect.

People often forget the opposite side of the coin. By that I mean avoiding the takedown, (or being dragged to the ground). I've heard it described as defensive-jiujitsu. Which surely shouldn't be overlooked in a self-defense situation.
A lot of fights end up on the ground anyway. Intentionally or accidentally, you are just as likely to get a boot in the head. I'd rather grappler's chances in getting out of there quickly.

As an example, Jose Aldo, BJJ blackbelt. People often ask why he never uses his jiu jitsu. But in my opinion, he uses it all the time to keep it standing or get back to his feet.

http://gfycat.com/ReadySnoopyIguana
http://gfycat.com/FlawedCostlyAnemoneshrimp

Boxing is brilliant, IMO the very best of all the combat sports. But punching someone bareknuckle is very inefficient and you run a huge risk of a bone injury.

Agreed. Boxing (and variants) are excellent. Aside from punching, head movement, footwork etc help you get out of a bad spot.

Judo, a lot of throw's but most esp Osoto Gari done on the pavement would likely cause very serious head injury or death.

I've heard that criticism of Osoto Gari before. Out of curiosity, what would be your go to throw to deal with somebody on the door - where you are conscience of the above legalities.

But realistically a lot of styles have something to offer, Akido and Ninjitsu for example ~ I'd use their standing wrist locks in work all the time and I've never trained in either style and I've never done wrist locks in my Judo or BJJ training.

BJJ includes wrist locks also. Surprised you've never done them. Some schools might avoid them classes involving white belts as they are only legal in comp blue and above. Personally, I think you are better off being a little familiar before you get there.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Hey Mellor I won't multi quote you if you don't mind (too much hassle).

I'm not writing off BJJ because of the guard, I'm just giving an example of where some styles have BS techniques in them, pulling guard outside of a BJJ setting is silly.

Osoto Gari, yes its very dangerous. I have used similar, but really gently. In reality I'm 120kgs, if I done Osoto Gari on an untrained person whether it be in a club or the street I'm going to very seriously hurt someone.

(My avatar is my throwing another +100kg Judoka with Osoto Gari in competition)

Wrist locks, I know they're used in BJJ. I've never been shown them in BJJ, but I know guys who use them a lot. I won't let them be used on me, I've broken both my wrists in falls over the years and wrist locks are just too damned sore for me.

Either way they're not shown or used as much as they are in some styles like Ninjitsu & Aikido.

Aldo & BJJ, well realistically you can use a lot of BJJ standing. Just some examples are Americana/Kimura/chokes & strangles/arm locks.

You asked what would my 'go to' throw be on the door ~ it really depends, as I said to the lad earlier about BJJ, things don't quite work out on the street like they do in the dojo. But really I'd rather avoid a throw like Osoto Gari. I like foot sweeps (Ashiwaza).. But in reality most people just fall down anyway lol (seriously). Most people fighting are fighting in a blind panic and usually a front push away from you is enough to knock them on their arse ~ the majority of people stand up and walk away at that point (thank God).

JustShon

I suppose what I meant by "in reality" is "against a resistive opponent who genuinely means you harm."

There are a lot of martial arts out there that practice almost entirely in drills where the "opponent" isn't an unknown factor and is following a set pattern. Now I'm not saying that such set drills are of no value in training, they're great for training muscle memory for various movements but then the techniques have to be tested in strenuous circumstances.

Of course not every technique in any given martial art is suitable for use "in the street" as it were because many techniques are highly situational and an assault (because that's what it is assuming you're not the attacker) can take many forms; one unarmed attacker, one armed attacker, multiple unarmed, multiple armed, on concrete, on grass, in a bar or in a park etc etc.

What I wanted to start a discussion on is the really useless stuff (partially with the aim of poking some light-hearted fun at it), things that just don't work on a resistive opponent in any circumstance.

arybvtcw0eolkf

JustShon wrote: »

What I wanted to start a discussion on is the really useless stuff (partially with the aim of poking some light-hearted fun at it), things that just don't work on a resistive opponent in any circumstance.

I'd say anything which says it'll teach you to defeat multiple attackers is BS.

When I was kickboxing we had a self defense element in our grading, it was BS ~ I only discovered it was BS when I started training Judo & BJJ.

Other than that, well regardless of styles or training (or no training0 some people are just good scrapers and will give anyone a nightmare outside the dojo (ie on the street).

RoboRat

My personal view is that in a street fight, Mauy Thai is probably the most effective. Like Makikomi I have also done the door and used to work in a very rough spot (Hitching Post) and when required, my go to was leg kicks. They are not lethal but they hurt like hell and can stop a potential attacker.

Boxing as already discussed is excellent but you hit someone crisp on the chin and they get KO'd, they can get killed when they hit their head off the concrete (just look at the news and what happened recently with a well known Irish fighter).

BJJ is effective as most fights end on the ground but I would only be using my BJJ to get back up as soon as possible. There are also multiple subs that can be applied standing and being honest, BJJ like Judo gives you an excellent core strength and balance which are very valuable in a street fight. The big positive from grappling is having full resistance fights and being calm in a situation. Most people get a huge adrenalin spike and are not used to fighting and this is where your experience comes to the forefront and you can conserve energy, control the situation and not flap around like a cat with tabasco sauce up its hole.

arybvtcw0eolkf

RoboRat wrote: »

My personal view is that in a street fight, Mauy Thai is probably the most effective. Like Makikomi I have also done the door and used to work in a very rough spot (Hitching Post) and when required, my go to was leg kicks. They are not lethal but they hurt like hell and can stop a potential attacker.

The Hitcher in Leixlip?.. (I worked there too if thats the same spot).

I worked in the Rye Vale too, Rock'a'fella's & The O'Zone.

Back when Leixlip Garda station closed at 23:00.

Leixlip was the most violent place I've ever worked, but that was back in the late 90's and early 90's (done Sammy's and Highway 66 too).



That's a place you earned your spurs!.

RoboRat

The Hitcher in Leixlip?.. (I worked there too if thats the same spot).

The one and only! I was there around '94/'95 and the Garda station was only open from 6 - 8pm!!!

Yeah my wife won't go out there as every time we have gone out, there have been loads of fights. We were waiting in Sammys one night and a fight broke out and everyone just continued as normal and paid no attention

arybvtcw0eolkf

RoboRat wrote: »

The one and only! I was there around '94/'95 and the Garda station was only open from 6 - 8pm!!!

Yeah my wife won't go out there as every time we have gone out, there have been loads of fights. We were waiting in Sammys one night and a fight broke out and everyone just continued as normal and paid no attention

We've likely crossed paths so. I wasn't out Leixlip as early as you, I meant to say late 90's early 2000's.