BDGP Scheme

High bike

Does anyone know for certain what are the rules regarding keeping calves for 5mts for the scheme.Do you have to keep all calves born on the farm or is it only calves that are from cows that are 4 or 5 star or is it depending on your reference animals?????

Kovu

High bike wrote: »

Does anyone know for certain what are the rules regarding keeping calves for 5mts for the scheme.Do you have to keep all calves born on the farm or is it only calves that are from cows that are 4 or 5 star or is it depending on your reference animals?????

I'm pretty sure it's all calves as you cannot complete the reference data for each calf until the animals are over five months.

High bike

So it's ok to sell incalf cows or heifers but once they'r calved u can't is that it?

Kovu

High bike wrote: »

So it's ok to sell incalf cows or heifers but once they'r calved u can't is that it?

Actually yea. I just looked up the scheme requirements there and all calves to be kept until they're over 5 months. Incalf ones are ok but have to have enough to do the required 60% of reference animals for the ear tagging.

50HX

i am not sure on this, i thought they'd to be kept for the 5mnths as well yet i sold a cow and calf last year (4mnths) and i still got the full payment

Kovu

50HX wrote: »

i am not sure on this, i thought they'd to be kept for the 5mnths as well yet i sold a cow and calf last year (4mnths) and i still got the full payment

I don't know so! I was just going by the Q & A document. Did you sell in the summer or autumn? I know some things like the bulls used were only implemented june/july 30th.

High bike

Kovu wrote: »

Actually yea. I just looked up the scheme requirements there and all calves to be kept until they're over 5 months. Incalf ones are ok but have to have enough to do the required 60% of reference animals for the ear tagging.

Thanks for clarifying that Kovu,the 60% reference animals wouldn't be effected but thought if they didn't qualify for the scheme they could be moved on

High bike

50HX wrote: »

i am not sure on this, i thought they'd to be kept for the 5mnths as well yet i sold a cow and calf last year (4mnths) and i still got the full payment

Id say you got away with one there because it was just getting off the ground

50HX

Kovu wrote: »

I don't know so! I was just going by the Q & A document. Did you sell in the summer or autumn? I know some things like the bulls used were only implemented june/july 30th.

maybe that's it

she turned into nut case and i was away at the time so the aul lad loaded her up and off with the 2 of them

twas only after i twigged the potential issue with payment

saying naawthin:)

bogman_bass

A hospital visit costs more than what you would have got from the scheme so don't worry about it

Kovu

bogman_bass wrote: »

A hospital visit costs more than what you would have got from the scheme so don't worry about it

The poor next owner though!

50HX

Kovu wrote: »

The poor next owner though!

i know the jobber that bought her,
she ended up in the factory and the calf was sold else where

that's all she was fit for anyway....13yr old and as big as a house

would never pass on danger like that


imagine you heard after she killed/serious injury to someone else...unless you've no conscious

and there's enough of them types around

bogman_bass

Kovu wrote: »

The poor next owner though!

Didnt cop that she went to the mart. thats a bit spicy to be fair!

blue5000

50HX wrote: »

i am not sure on this, i thought they'd to be kept for the 5mnths as well yet i sold a cow and calf last year (4mnths) and i still got the full payment

I think because you still had 60% of your base yr numbers you got paid 100%. This needs to be checked with an advisor, AFAIK if you had 40 cows in base yr (2014) and you have 60% ie 24, and they are 4 or 5 star you have enough.

Kovu

Below is a section from the 'Beef Data Genomic Programme (BDGP) 2015-2020. Questions and Answers Document (June 2015)

Unless they changed it since, it seems pretty clear on the 5 month stipulation.

If the cow’s original calf dies, can the participant buy another calf to replace the dead calf?
Yes, it will be permitted to do this. However the original calf must have been tagged and registered in accordance with AIM rules and tested for BVD.

Will I be paid extra for twins?
No. Payment is made on the basis of the number of calved cows in 2014 and forage land declared on the SPS application in 2014. Both calves must be registered in accordance with the programme requirements and will also be subject to the annual survey requirement.

If a cow has twins can I sell one of those calves?
Calves must be held and maintained on the holding for at least 5 months.

What happens with calves born by embryo transfer?
These calves must be registered in the same manner as all other calves



Is the payment increased if a cow calves twice in the one year?
No, payment is made on the basis of the number of calved cows in 2014 and forage land declared on SPS application in 2014. However, both calves must be registered and have survey data completed in the same manner as all other calves.

3.2 Requirement 2 Surveys

What are the requirements?
ICBF will post out forms to each applicant. These requires details on the calves, cows and stock bull to be recorded and sent back to be included on the ICBF cattle breeding database. These forms will start issuing in early Autumn 2015.
The details to be recorded may include, but may not be limited to;
Calves; scour and pneumonia quality and docility, calf size, calf vigour/vitality
Cows – milking ability and docility, cow culling reasons
Stock bulls – docility and functionality, bull culling reasons

Calves must be a minimum of 5 months old when completing surveys.

Can a farmer sell a cow and her calf and still receive payment?
Yes but it is a requirement of the programme that calves are retained for 5 months. In addition, sufficient animals must also be kept to meet the genotyping and replacement requirements of this programme.

Can I buy extra calves to put on my cows i.e. multiple suck a few calves on the one cow?
Yes. No extra payment will apply however.

What if a cow dies/is sold shortly after calving?
Payment will be made, mindful of the genotyping/replacement requirements.

tanko

Two cows here had twins last year and i sold one twin off each cow at 5 weeks old. It didn't affect my payment I'm pretty sure.

croot

blue5000 wrote: »

I think because you still had 60% of your base yr numbers you got paid 100%. This needs to be checked with an advisor, AFAIK if you had 40 cows in base yr (2014) and you have 60% ie 24, and they are 4 or 5 star you have enough.

I'd say this has to be the case. What's the point in the reference number of cows if it applies sometime and not others.

adne

What happens if you increase numbers on your reference year. Does the percentage number of 4 and 5 star cows needed apply to the number calculated in the reference year or is it the percentage of number of cows you have in 2020

dh1985

adne wrote: »

What happens if you increase numbers on your reference year. Does the percentage number of 4 and 5 star cows needed apply to the number calculated in the reference year or is it the percentage of number of cows you have in 2020

Reference year only

blue5000

croot wrote: »

I'd say this has to be the case. What's the point in the reference number of cows if it applies sometime and not others.

Not 100% sure what you mean, but I think it might be because we have a few years (2018?) to get the number of 4 and 5 star cows needed.

croot

blue5000 wrote: »

Not 100% sure what you mean, but I think it might be because we have a few years (2018?) to get the number of 4 and 5 star cows needed.

I meant that you only have to keep the reference number of cows or calves so selling a few shouldn't matter as long as you have enough to cover the number.

Kovu

blue5000 wrote: »

Not 100% sure what you mean, but I think it might be because we have a few years (2018?) to get the number of 4 and 5 star cows needed.

I think croot means that the Dept seems to be telling us that we can't sell any calf under 5 months, yet we can lower stock numbers if we have more than ref amounts and still get paid the same.

High bike

I'm going to get my advisor to check this with Dept tomorrow as there seems to be a lot of confusion about it.I hope crook is right as I have a few to move on il I can

High bike

Just got word all calves have to be kept for 5mts

barnaman

got my payment today and with testing deductions and "completion" deduction, no idea what that last one is as no penalties etc, over 25% of my payment is gone! If a smaller farmer I would say scheme not worth the hassle.

tanko

High bike wrote: »

Just got word all calves have to be kept for 5mts

What happens if you sell some before they're five months old? I don't see any possible penalties anywhere.

High bike

tanko wrote: »

What happens if you sell some before they're five months old? I don't see any possible penalties anywhere.

dont know bout that but my advisor. checked with the dept and that's what they told him

croot

Typical Department rules and regulations. You have a number of cows you get paid for but even if you double your cow numbers you have to abide by their T's & C's on everything extra. Then instead of getting paid for the extra cows they give it to your neighbour that's milking.......:cool:.

Kovu

croot wrote: »

Typical Department rules and regulations. You have a number of cows you get paid for but even if you double your cow numbers you have to abide by their T's & C's on everything extra. Then instead of getting paid for the extra cows they give it to your neighbour that's milking.......:cool:.

We're as well off to try our hand at diversification Croot......

''Free-range, Organic, Limousin milk'' This pint was brought to you by Lady Moo-shoes, daughter of Sanctimonious Sally. **


**It has been three weeks since any workers were injured during milking!

High bike

croot wrote: »

Typical Department rules and regulations. You have a number of cows you get paid for but even if you double your cow numbers you have to abide by their T's & C's on everything extra. Then instead of getting paid for the extra cows they give it to your neighbour that's milking.......:cool:.

couldn't agree more

50HX

croot wrote: »

Typical Department rules and regulations. You have a number of cows you get paid for but even if you double your cow numbers you have to abide by their T's & C's on everything extra. Then instead of getting paid for the extra cows they give it to your neighbour that's milking.......:cool:.

i am confused on this]

say my reference year 2014 number of cows is 20
that means i have to have 16 cows at 4-5star (80%) to meet the requirement

in the mean time i decide to increase my herd to 30 cows do i now have to have 24 cows at 4-5star

i thought you could do what you want with regards to stars outside of the reference year numbers

Kovu

50HX wrote: »

i am confused on this]

say my reference year 2014 number of cows is 20
that means i have to have 16 cows at 4-5star (80%) to meet the requirement

in the mean time i decide to increase my herd to 30 cows do i now have to have 24 cows at 4-5star

i thought you could do what you want with regards to stars outside of the reference year numbers

No, you'll still only need the 16 cows to cover that part of the scheme.
However you'll have to AI 80% of your hypothethical 30 cows with 4/5 star bulls, despite not getting extra money for them. You would also have to keep the extra calves for 5 months and fill out the surveys as you do for the reference animals. So you'd be giving yourself extra work for no extra money.

50HX

Kovu wrote: »

No, you'll still only need the 16 cows to cover that part of the scheme.
However you'll have to AI 80% of your hypothethical 30 cows with 4/5 star bulls, despite not getting extra money for them. You would also have to keep the extra calves for 5 months and fill out the surveys as you do for the reference animals. So you'd be giving yourself extra work for no extra money.

thanks for clearing that up

i've the can filled up with good straws( as of 2016) who knows what rating they'll be come breeding season 2018/19

Kovu

50HX wrote: »

thanks for clearing that up

i've the can filled up with good straws( as of 2016) who knows what rating they'll be come breeding season 2018/19

Haha true. Wonder would they be allowed if you can prove they they were 4/5 star when you bought them?
You are allowed to continue using your bull if his stars drop after purchase so you could argue the same case.

50HX

Kovu wrote: »

Haha true. Wonder would they be allowed if you can prove they they were 4/5 star when you bought them?
You are allowed to continue using your bull if his stars drop after purchase so you could argue the same case.

Exhibit A your Honor is a catalogue of all sires from 2016.......:p

Bellview

Kovu wrote: »

Haha true. Wonder would they be allowed if you can prove they they were 4/5 star when you bought them?
You are allowed to continue using your bull if his stars drop after purchase so you could argue the same case.

Eventhough you can use the bull his daughters will have his latest rating which may create a problem when the farmer stock slips from a 4 star to let's say a 3 star..

As the ifa are so busy protesting about pig meat and veg it would be nice if they could also consider a protest at icbf door as there are over 20000 farmers committed to the scheme..and if the excel file goes pear shaped in icbf we are all holding the baby along with costs

blue5000

Bellview wrote: »

Eventhough you can use the bull his daughters will have his latest rating which may create a problem when the farmer stock slips from a 4 star to let's say a 3 star..

As the ifa are so busy protesting about pig meat and veg it would be nice if they could also consider a protest at icbf door as there are over 20000 farmers committed to the scheme..and if the excel file goes pear shaped in icbf we are all holding the baby along with costs

But sure you should be laughin all the way to the bank, selling 5 star bulls:pac:

50HX

Bellview wrote: »

Eventhough you can use the bull his daughters will have his latest rating which may create a problem when the farmer stock slips from a 4 star to let's say a 3 star..

so if you have a 5 star heifer calf on the ground now and you want her as a replacement she could be down to 3 by the time she goes in calf

that doesn't add up at all

you can't control the rating going forward

there's no crystal ball for that so rules or no rules that couldn't be enforced as it's no feasable to do so

High bike

The more you read into this scheme the more u want to pull out ,too many hoops to jump through for very little reward.Im seriously considering giving back what I got and just carry on as I was and do my own thing

50HX

High bike wrote: »

The more you read into this scheme the more u want to pull out ,too many hoops to jump through for very little reward.Im seriously considering giving back what I got and just carry on as I was and do my own thing

ditto ... i amgoing to wait until i have the 4hr course done and i'll know more then.......i hope:rolleyes:

High bike

50HX wrote: »

ditto ... i amgoing to wait until i have the 4hr course done and i'll know more then.......i hope:rolleyes:

they might let u keep the 160e for doing the course:o

blue5000

High bike wrote: »

The more you read into this scheme the more u want to pull out ,too many hoops to jump through for very little reward.Im seriously considering giving back what I got and just carry on as I was and do my own thing

Think I'll stay in anyway, got paid today, never worse wanted, 3k is a big help this time of year.

High bike

blue5000 wrote: »

Think I'll stay in anyway, got paid today, never worse wanted, 3k is a big help this time of year.

too true 3k not to be sneezed at but its what you have to do to get it,do you know if you pull out does it affect sfp or glas payments?
N

Bellview

blue5000 wrote: »

But sure you should be laughin all the way to the bank, selling 5 star bulls:pac:

Every time yiou look at done deal all bulls are 4or5 star.. How is your mog joe bull doing.. His ratings jumping nicely. I also see some of his sons breeding well a good sign of a bull

tanko

High bike wrote: »

too true 3k not to be sneezed at but its what you have to do to get it,do you know if you pull out does it affect sfp or glas payments?
N

Can't see how it would affect SFP or Glas payments but you'd have to give back any money you got for the genomics scheme if you pull out.

blue5000

Bellview wrote: »

Every time yiou look at done deal all bulls are 4or5 star.. How is your mog joe bull doing.. His ratings jumping nicely. I also see some of his sons breeding well a good sign of a bull

Thanks, calving themselves anyway, nice calves, but can be small from Au heifers. This is a black baldie cow with one of his calves, about 7-10 days old.

High bike

tanko wrote: »

Can't see how it would affect SFP or Glas payments but you'd have to give back any money you got for the genomics scheme if you pull out.

dont mind doing that if it doesn't affect anything else

Bellview

blue5000 wrote: »

Thanks, calving themselves anyway, nice calves, but can be small from Au heifers. This is a black baldie cow with one of his calves, about 7-10 days old.

The few I have had started small but at about 6 to 8 weeks they started to kick on.. Nice calf

bogman_bass

High bike wrote: »

The more you read into this scheme the more u want to pull out ,too many hoops to jump through for very little reward.Im seriously considering giving back what I got and just carry on as I was and do my own thing

What parts are you finding hard to do?

High bike

bogman_bass wrote: »

What parts are you finding hard to do?

It's not that any of it is particularly hard it's just. too restrictive

Bellview

High bike wrote: »

It's not that any of it is particularly hard it's just. too restrictive

I'm in tithe scheme but the toughest part is that the icbf ratings are moving not by small values but some times large ones. I have taken the percentages work for the payment approach and luckily so far they are all lined up ok. One weakness though is that icbf ratings select what are considered your best cows without knowing if they are good or not.

It would be interesting if icbf allowed farmers rate their better cows using the percentage rules would the farmer select the same ones as icbf. Last year icbf have selected 4 heifer calves of the 4 only 1 will be in Ireland after this week as the other 3 were of poorish quality and are being exported. There were 3 other heifers that I would have selected that are staying in the herd and taking samples from them would have helped the database as these females will stay.

I'm sure if you asked any suckler farmer to select heifers they would select cattle that will stay on the farm then giving better data for icbf...

The only real winner here is icbf as they are making over 10m a year from the scheme while the farmer could be left in the laps of the excel file from icbf database.

Let's see how the scheme plays out but it's a pity that coveney and Henry burns (as he is ifa rep on icbf board) left this scheme play through without consulting ffarmers and checking some basic logic ie you can run a scrub bull and qualify..