Will we ever have a 4-day working week?

Do you think we will ever see the day when the norm will be for the working week to be 4 days long rather than 5? Suppose that between now and 2030, for instance, the economy grew by 20% and per capita incomes also grew by a similar amount, while people worked the usual 5 day working week - surely people would much prefer to keep their level of material wealth at 2016 levels while only having to work a 4-day week instead? I believe that if everybody (and it would need to be basically everybody) came to a consensus that they were only willing to work Monday to Thursday, most people would be a hell of a lot happier.

The trouble is, of course, that if even 10% of people decide that *they* would prefer to work instead of have extra free time, they would earn more money and this would lead to others feeling jealous and/or inferior and therefore deciding that *they* would rather work than have extra free time.
What is needed is for a social taboo to be gradually introduced whereby people who want to work 5 days a week are ostracised!

Imagine having to work only 4 days and then get 3 days off. Over a working life of 44 years you would enjoy well over 2,000 extra days off.
Like how much material comfort do we need? Nowadays people on the dole can live in warm houses, have a hot shower once a day, access to an amazing range of cheap food, technology which eliminates boredom, access to so much comfort and luxury from the perspective of even the richest people of 1900. We're already well past the point of material fulfilment- people nowadays only strive to achieve to stave off that gnawing worry (cultured into them from growing up in the kind of society we all grew up in) that they will be considered by others to be inferior and a "failure" if they don't. Possessing 80% of the material living standard of nowadays is still luxury in absolute terms - people feeling depressed by their income being lower *relative* to others will always be with us so we might as well be poorer in general since in reality we adjust to a lower income over time.

People formerly had to work 6.5 days a week in factories, 12 hour days 6 days a week, with it gradually being whittled down to 39/40 hours a week. I think the eventual acceptance of a 4 day working week should be seen as a goal for all developed economies.

With less hours worked per person there will be more work to "go around". The inevitable eventual boiling of the earths oceans and atmosphere from the burning off of all of the earths fossil fuels could be staved off another while longer too, since the economy will be growing less quickly. With an extra weekend day, the 4 days you *are* working could be approached with much more enthusiasm by everyone, mitigating some of the lost productivity for everyone working a day less. And with more free time and 4/5 of the income, I think people would be a lot happier (so long as it is universal).

Maybe I'm thinking of this way too simplistically but as I lie awake at 4:45 in the morning it all makes sense!

Greenmachine

Don't see it happening in our lifetimes if ever. Shorter days, are a more realistic prospect for office workers but not less days.

MightyMandarin

Could you not have just asked the question without writing an essay?

MightyMandarin

MightyMandarin wrote: »

Could you not have just asked the question without writing an essay?

No.

colossus-x

MightyMandarin wrote: »

Could you not have just asked the question without writing an essay?

God your so bitchy. Ya didn't have to read it if ya didn't want.

Letree

I think it should happen even though the opposite seems to be the case. The working day is actually getting longer.

I think if we did move to a 4 day week there would be less people unemployed as we could spread the work better. But there would also be an extra day of leisure where people would want to pass the time and would be out spending their money. Initially people would have less money but prices would come down to reflect that.

discus

The only reason that we will get more days off will be to encourage more spending; the reason for the initial introduction of the weekend.

Supercell

With increased automation and AI i foresee more zero hour contracts, four days a week if you are lucky or very highly skilled. Unless you are a civil servant where life will be the same and you'll get paid more every year because your worth it.

Letree

Supercell wrote: »

With increased automation and AI i foresee more zero hour contracts, four days a week if you are lucky or very highly skilled. Unless you are a civil servant where life will be the same and you'll get paid more every year because your worth it.

Even the civil servants had their working week increased and had their holidays cut. There is no sign the powers that be whether the government or big business will be in favor of a 4 day week.

The Scandinavian countries may lead the way on it. Some places there are shortening their working days.

panda100

I think a four day working week makes a lot of sense. I've noticed that in my work place those on 4 day weeks are generally more productive and less stressed than those working the 5 days.

LeBash

In 2030 will a bottle of water cost 1.50? I doubt it. So to live people will work 5 days.

It wasn't so long when family's could live on 1 income, now quite a lot of family have 2 incomes. Some have jobs on the side.

So basically inflation might beat us into kids being an economic gain and not a drain.

All hypothetical of course.

Eugene Norman

The cost of housing and rent will continue to track average incomes. So if that's two people working 5 days that will be the norm.
And we have to compete with China.

This isn't a new idea. Keynes thought it would be 3 days a week by now. It isn't.

pragmatic1

It will happen for most jobs without a doubt. There's a huge push away from manual labour to automation in general and this will only increase in time.

Letree

They want us working till we are 70 and even higher in the future. If they are going to do that then at least make the 4 day week the norm. 5 day weeks till you are 75 or even 80 as they are discussing in Britain is the stuff of nightmares for most people.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

When I was in primary school the teacher told us that in the future machines would be doing so many tasks that we would have to do very little work. He said the problem for people, going forward, would be how to fill all their spare time. This was in the mid 1950s. I never forgot it and I'm still waiting on it to happen.

NIMAN

I'd prefer Monday off. But then again Monday night would become the new Sunday night, and Tuesdays would be the new Monday.

On a more serious note, wasn't there some big billionaire business man last year who gives all his employees extra days off each week? He said it makes for happier workers and happier workers make him more money.

Edit: found him!
http://www.businessinsider.com/billionaire-carlos-slim-calls-for-three-day-working-week-to-improve-quality-of-life-2014-7?IR=T

marketty

I've been doing a bit of reading on the idea of a universal basic income and it's place in an increasingly automated world. I hope to see this come in, maybe for our children's generation.
Talking to friends though, it's surprising to me how much opposition there is from ordinary working people to the idea that the benefits of increasing automation and less need for manual labour should be shared among the people and lead to an improved quality of life for all.
The thought of giving money to people 'for nothing' is unconscionable to many. One colleague I spoke to insisted that people who's jobs becone automated just have to 'upskill' or else lose out because it's 'natural selection'. To me that's an awful dystopian world view.
Think about how the world economy works at the moment. Increases in automation lead to redundant workers, the benefit in saved wages and increased output are absorbed almost entirely by returning greater profits to the mega rich. Enormously profitable companies such as Google, facebook etc turn over hundreds of billions of dollars but employ relatively few people, and those they do employ are highly skilled and educated. These are the jobs of the future, but we cannot all be masters educated software developers.

NIMAN

marketty wrote: »

I've been doing a bit of reading on the idea of a universal basic income and it's place in an increasingly automated world. I hope to see this come in, maybe for our children's generation.
Talking to friends though, it's surprising to me how much opposition there is from ordinary working people to the idea that the benefits of increasing automation and less need for manual labour should be shared among the people and lead to an improved quality of life for all.
The thought of giving money to people 'for nothing' is unconscionable to many. One colleague I spoke to insisted that people who's jobs becone automated just have to 'upskill' or else lose out because it's 'natural selection'. To me that's an awful dystopian world view.
Think about how the world economy works at the moment. Increases in automation lead to redundant workers, the benefit in saved wages and increased output are absorbed almost entirely by returning greater profits to the mega rich. Enormously profitable companies such as Google, facebook etc turn over hundreds of billions of dollars but employ relatively few people, and those they do employ are highly skilled and educated. These are the jobs of the future, but we cannot all be masters educated software developers.

Didn't the city of Utrecht in the Netherlands recently discuss/pass the idea of giving everyone a £150 weekly wage, and if they wanted to work on top of it they could.

http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/jul/10/the-giving-city-utrecht-plans-basic-income-experiment

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/07/10/utrecht-basic-income_n_7770648.html

KomradeBishop

We don't get to decide our own cost of living, neither our wages, and thus neither do we get to set our own working hours (as we have to work long enough, to earn enough, to live within the cost of living - there is no choice) - the people who run the economy, run businesses and who have the power to make contracts in their favour (not ours...), decide for us - they have enormous control over us.

This will not change, because it means many presently-powerful parts of society, would have to give up a big portion of their power over the rest of society.

While unemployment exists - and particularly during economic crisis, long-lasting high unemployment (which now looks to be a permanent thing) - workers will never have the bargaining power to get something like this.

So, if you want to live in this economic system, you have to give up your power to decide things like this, and just suck it up - that or try to tweak/change the system (e.g. to guarantee employers can't use the threat of unemployment, to erode worker bargaining power).


A lot of people suggest a Basic Income (free money for nothing), but employers can snatch that as well just by slashing worker wages over time (turning it into a business subsidy) - whereas the Job Guarantee (money in exchange for work - adding value to the economy) would permanently solidify strong worker bargaining power, giving workers the ability to demand a 4 day work week, at a proper living wage, if they want it.

jester77

It's a personal choice. Lot's of people are happy to work 6 days weeks, most prefer 5 and some prefer 4.

Where I work, 90% is a lot more popular than 80%. So instead 4 days every week you have 4 days every second week. I will probably go 90% in a few years when my kids are a bit older so I can have some longer weekends with them.

rubadub

LeBash wrote: »

In 2030 will a bottle of water cost 1.50? I doubt it. So to live people will work 5 days.

What do you think it will cost? I can get 2L for 49cent in my nearest shop at the moment. I think 14 years back it would have been around the same.

23 years ago the cheapest beer was 1.27 (£1 cans)

If there is massive inflation you can expect wages to rise accordingly.

Iwasfrozen

The increasing cost of living is forcing people to work longer hours not less, in 2030 we'll be working more.

Capt'n Midnight

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The increasing cost of living is forcing people to work longer hours not less, in 2030 we'll be working more.

I never understood this. It's a fancy way of saying wages have fallen drastically in real terms.

Back in the 1970's when the UK had a lot of strikes they had a three day week because there wasn't enough work to go around, because of power cuts, delays in deliveries etc. Society didn't collapse.

One of the big subsidies to businesses is that business hours are during daylight. Saves them heating and lighting which the rest of us have to pay at home. And then there's the depression caused by lack of daylight.

marketty

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

One of the big subsidies to businesses is that business hours are during daylight. Saves them heating and lighting which the rest of us have to pay at home. And then there's the depression caused by lack of daylight.

That's an interesting one I'd never considered!

Eugene Norman

If you think about it households used to have one person working 5 days to feed himself (mostly a he) and the other 3 or 4. Now it's 2 people working to feed the other two.

And are people in advanced economies richer or more comfortable than the 60's? Don't think so.

Elemonator

We'd all love more time off but starting later in the day say 10pm sounds good to me as a compromise. It should be to the satisfaction of all parties.

Mint Aero

Considering I haven't seen a 9-5 job since 1996 and most places work 9-5:30, 9-6, 8:30-6 etc if anything working days are just getting longer and longer.

Letree

I would like to see governments bring change employment law so that a staff member can choose work 4 days a week if they want. They can work more if the want to but the option to do 4 days a week should be there. Which days could be negotiated.

Iwasfrozen

Letree wrote: »

I would like to see governments bring change employment law so that a staff member can choose work 4 days a week if they want. They can work more if the want to but the option to do 4 days a week should be there. Which days could be negotiated.

4 10 hour days I assume you mean?

That's very unfair on the company though, they have to fire someone for 1 day a week to make up the slack.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Do you think we will ever see the day when the norm will be for the working week to be 4 days long rather than 5?

Very interesting topic. I've absolutely no doubt a four-day working week is inevitable in my lifetime entirely because of the technological revolution we are living through, just as leisure time was expanded enormously by the end of the 19th century as a result of the industrial revolution. It's not long since a 6-day week was the norm and the weekend was just Sunday. Carlos Slim recently came out saying we need to move to a 3-day working week.


Is Carlos Slim's 3-day week workable? When one of the richest people on the planet is advocating something like this, people should take notice.

Your Face

Soylent Green....was humans!

demanufactured

What...??
There isn't enough hours in the day as it is...

Filmer Paradise

Eugene Norman wrote: »

If you think about it households used to have one person working 5 days to feed himself (mostly a he) and the other 3 or 4. Now it's 2 people working to feed the other two.

And are people in advanced economies richer or more comfortable than the 60's? Don't think so.

I sometimes wonder about this & wonder why this travesty was allowed to happen.

What tweaks in the way income tax was collected were performed were made unknown to us?

It was the biggest con trick that was played on us & we sleep-walked into it without realizing it.

Total joke & the joke's on us.

PARlance

Eugene Norman wrote: »

If you think about it households used to have one person working 5 days to feed himself (mostly a he) and the other 3 or 4. Now it's 2 people working to feed the other two.

And are people in advanced economies richer or more comfortable than the 60's? Don't think so.

More comfortable, absolutely. Not many of us would adjust to 1960's life too easily.
Richer is harder to define for me, on the whole, no.

You can still find families with a sole bread winner. In general, they won't be paying a massive mortgage, won't be flying away for expensive foreign holidays, their kids won't have thousands of euro worth of phones, they won't be paying a hundred plus a month for a broadband and TV package etc.

Filmer Paradise wrote: »

I sometimes wonder about this & wonder why this travesty was allowed to happen.

What tweaks in the way income tax was collected were performed were made unknown to us?

It was the biggest con trick that was played on us & we sleep-walked into it without realizing it.

Total joke & the joke's on us.

There was no slight of hand with regards income tax. People just spend a crazy amount of their income on materialistic things now vs the 60's. In the late 90's and early 00's, we were actually spending more than we earned.

sjb25

I work either a 3 or 4 day week everyweek as it is.... 12 hour shifts are great

Filmer Paradise

Filmer Paradise wrote: »

I sometimes wonder about this & wonder why this travesty was allowed to happen.

What tweaks in the way income tax was collected were performed were made unknown to us?

It was the biggest con trick that was played on us & we sleep-walked into it without realizing it.

Total joke & the joke's on us.

The cost of accommodation (buying or renting) started to rise above inflation as people became "richer", but then continued to rise thus requiring two incomes to support it.
Consumerism has also meant that there are more ways to spend your money than there ever was in the past!

Just compare what the average single income family had in the 1960s with a two income family today, OK a lot of the stuff we have today didn't exist 50 years ago, but you get the point.

Talula123

If there were 4 day working weeks then holidays would be shorter to make up the time.

Talula123

If there were 4 day working weeks then holidays would be shorter and working days would be longer to make up the time.

Eugene Norman

PARlance wrote: »

More comfortable, absolutely. Not many of us would adjust to 1960's life too easily.
Richer is harder to define for me, on the whole, no.

You can still find families with a sole bread winner. In general, they won't be paying a massive mortgage, won't be flying away for expensive foreign holidays, their kids won't have thousands of euro worth of phones, they won't be paying a hundred plus a month for a broadband and TV package etc.




There was no slight of hand with regards income tax. People just spend a crazy amount of their income on materialistic things now vs the 60's. In the late 90's and early 00's, we were actually spending more than we earned.

The idea that the recent (one generation back) past was less materialistic is rubbish. Really it is. The 80's middle class house was chock full of items, many now not used anymore. And if people are spending a crazy amount of stuff, that's not poverty.


I don't buy it -- since the bust anyway, most people are paying too much in rent or mortgages ( or if sensible have saved for the higher interest rates in the future). There's always the guy who buys the most expensive car he can find when he gets his first pay packet or first bonus but I don't see people I grew up with (mid 30s - 40) buying toys.

Some older guys do. My neighbour has a paid off house in his 50s and is building a train set for the grandkids in his attic taking up the entire space. Will cost thousands.

Eugene Norman

Talula123 wrote: »

If there were 4 day working weeks then holidays would be shorter and working days would be longer to make up the time.

Some factories had a 12 hour 3 day a week system. Before they all went to China.

Eugene Norman

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Some factories had a 12 hour 3 day a week system. Before they all went to China.

Some service centres still do this today, only three years ago I had such a shift pattern.

shamrock2004

It would be nice - seeing how people in this country are working so much harder these days, for so much less. Add to this the fact that raising a family is now more difficult as it's the norm for both people in a relationship to have to work to provide a home for a family and to be able to provide for children.

scamalert

many service jobs or low skilled factory ones are doing this-usually 4 days either 10-12h shifts.doesnt make it easier if your in one really,you might have 3 days off, 1 day usually goes to just recover and your left with 2 days anyway.

Think Spanish have best example where you have 4h shifts split in say 8 to 12 then 4 to 8,but weather and culture is huge factor in that.

Only sector i hate is banks,the hours they have are never fitting you either have to rush or closed when needed,even worse in recent years with many branches replacing people with ATMs inside,and given amount of holidays its always rush hour when people get chance to go up to.

Letree

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

4 10 hour days I assume you mean?

That's very unfair on the company though, they have to fire someone for 1 day a week to make up the slack.

No i would prefer a 30 hour week over 4 days

Capt'n Midnight

http://smbc-comics.com/comics/1457359069-20160307.png

LeeLooLee

There's absolutely no reason why most companies can't offer this now. It's mind boggling to me that the 'norm' is to work 5 days a week, 8 hours a day and have to work from an office/company premises. It's a completely outdated concept.

cowboyBuilder

MightyMandarin wrote: »

Could you not have just asked the question without writing an essay?

Did you have to read the fúcking essay ?

Iwasfrozen

Letree wrote: »

No i would prefer a 30 hour week over 4 days

You must earn a lot if you can afford such a drop in wages. People with mortgages and families don't have that privilege.

maryishere

Would be nice to have three day weekends to spend more time down the country, but its not going to happen. Not bad to have 2 days off a week I suppose. There are many people worse off in the world.

LeeLooLee

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You must earn a lot if you can afford such a drop in wages. People with mortgages and families don't have that privilege.

Who put a gun to your head and made you buy a house and start a family?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

LeeLooLee, it's a life choice. Nobody is forced to buy a house, but the sense of security is desirable for most (in Ireland). Nobody is forced to reproduce, but without it, we're kinda fooked as a species, no?


I'd rather work 3 x 15 hour days rather than 5 x 9 hour days. The thing is, those three days, most workers are going to be lest productive. Even 4 x 11 hour days would be great for me. It just won't suit everybody or every company.