Gator Skins or GP 4000s

dahat

Going to replace my stock tyres soon and need some advice on wbich to get.....

Will likely stick to 700 x 23 and ride ok roads with some rough mountain roads.

godtabh

dahat wrote: »

Going to replace my stock tyres soon and need some advice on wbich to get.....

Will likely stick to 700 x 23 and ride ok roads with some rough mountain roads.

If it was me (and it has been) 4000 all the time.

Cee-Jay-Cee

4000's.

Gator skins are horrible.

nilhg

GP 4seasons are a sort of halfway house, personally I think they are great, though expensive enough, ride much more like the 4000s

Bigus

Some talk of 25 s having lower rolling resistance and certainly more comfortable if the frame is Wide enough
http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/specials/conti-gp4000s-ii-23-25-28

Manufacturer Weight 205 grams 225 grams 260 grams
Measured Weight 204 grams 215 grams 267 grams
Measured Width on 17C Rim 25 mm 27 mm 31 mm
Measured Height on 17C Rim 23 mm 25 mm 29 mm
Rolling Resistance 120 psi / 8.3 Bar 12.5 Watts 12.2 Watts 11.6 Watts
Rolling Resistance 100 psi / 6.9 Bar 13.1 Watts 12.9 Watts 12.0 Watts
Rolling Resistance 80 psi / 5.5 Bar 14.1 Watts 13.7 Watts 12.7 Watts
Rolling Resistance 60 psi / 4.1 Bar 16.2 Watts 15.5 Watts 14.1 Watts
CRR 120 psi / 8.3 Bar 0.00375 0.00366 0.00347
CRR 100 psi / 6.9 Bar 0.00393 0.00387 0.00360
CRR 80 psi / 5.5 Bar 0.00423 0.00411 0.00381
CRR 60 psi / 4.1 Bar 0.00486 0.00465 0.00423
Conclusion

Continental Grand Prix 4000S II 28 mm - Closeup of logo
The bigger the tire, the lower the rolling resistance at the same air pressure. When you run lower air pressures, the differences get even bigger. At a comfortable 80 psi, you're only giving up 2-3 watts for a pair of tires when going for the 28C size. That's good to know when you decide to go for a bigger tire because you like a more comfortable ride or ride on bad roads with potholes a lot.

Off-course, what will be won in the rolling resistance department will be lost in the aerodynamics department. I'm not sure at what kind of speed this turnover point would be. This also depends greatly on the tire/wheel combo. A 28C tire on a rim that is designed for a 23C tire will perform poorer.

All in all, I think the differences aren't that big, especially between the 23C and 25C tires. I'm looking forward to repeating this test with other tires to see if we can apply these results to other tires as well.

dahat

The 4000s are a winner then but will look onto the 4Season tyres as well.

68 lost souls

4000s for me every time

Had a rental bike with gator skins on holidays and was very surprised about how little grip in the wet they have. Compared to contis I have on my own bike..

dahat

ronoc wrote: »

Had a rental bike with gator skins on holidays and was very surprised about how little grip in the wet they have. Compared to contis I have on my own bike..

Not good for our climate then.

topcat77

Gator skins is the biggest waste of money i spent on cycling gear. I initially got a set years ago after reading all they merchandising hype on how puncture prof they are.

1. Don't believe the hype in regards how puncture prof they are. if you don't check your tyres regularly you will get a puncture.

2. The rubber compound is poor. no feel through the bike, it feels like the bike wants to fall from under you at the slightest twitch. you really start to fear wet roads.

I recently bought a pair of GP4000 II and they're fantastic but pricey. best all round tyre I've gotten are: http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/category/components/tyres/road/product/review-michelin-lithion-2-road-tyre-13-47178/

smacl

Bigus wrote: »

Some talk of 25 s having lower rolling resistance and certainly more comfortable if the frame is Wide enough
http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/specials/conti-gp4000s-ii-23-25-28

Jan Heine's work on tyre resistance is interesting to read in this context, where he reckons the steel drum isn't that reflective of road riding. Summary is

Tire resistance is much more important than previously thought. For most riders, changing the tires is by far the biggest improvement they can make to their bikes’ performance. (Aero wheels will improve your bicycle’s speed by less than 2%, whereas tires can make a 20% difference.)

On steel drums, wider tires were slower because they had to run at relatively low pressures. Once we had shown that the high pressures served little benefit, it became clear that on real roads, wider tires are faster, period.

The secret to a fast tire is a supple casing. Compared to the casing, all other tire factors are relatively unimportant… In the past, many considered a high pressure rating as a sign of a “good, fast” tire. In fact, tires with high pressure ratings tend to need sturdier casings that make the tire slower.

dahat

topcat77 wrote: »

Gator skins is the biggest waste of money i spent on cycling gear. I initially got a set years ago after reading all they merchandising hype on how puncture prof they are.

1. Don't believe the hype in regards how puncture prof they are. if you don't check your tyres regularly you will get a puncture.

2. The rubber compound is poor. no feel through the bike, it feels like the bike wants to fall from under you at the slightest twitch. you really start to fear wet roads.

I recently bought a pair of GP4000 II and they're fantastic but pricey. best all round tyre I've gotten are: http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/category/components/tyres/road/product/review-michelin-lithion-2-road-tyre-13-47178/

Those tyre's linked are €17 on Chainreaction, very reasonably priced.

German site BikeDiscount.de I think has them at €32 each plus €7 postage if my memory serves me correctly.

irishrover99

dahat wrote: »

Those tyre's linked are €17 on Chainreaction, very reasonably priced.

German site BikeDiscount.de I think has them at €32 each plus €7 postage if my memory serves me correctly.

Just put them on my bike about a month ago. Great tyre so far and really smooth and great in the wet. Will buy them again

Fian

I have gatorskins on my older bike, GP4000s on my new one.

The GP4000s are much better, easy choice.

Pablo Rubio

I had gatorskins on for 2 weeks and took them off .Totally unstable. Found them absolutely lethal in the wet and muddy country roads.Hit the deck twice on them nearly broke my arm and made sh**e of a new bib tights. I'd rather risk a puncture than ever put them on a bike again.
Back on the Michelin LIthion 2's again.

Totally agree with topcat77
"2. The rubber compound is poor. no feel through the bike, it feels like the bike wants to fall from under you at the slightest twitch. you really start to fear wet roads."

Agent Smyth

Always had gatorskins or hardshells on my bikes for years, found them to be good allround tyres
puncture protection was great, they were long lasting but crap going around bends in the wet.

Last year I swapped over to 4 seasons and could not believe the difference in the new feel my bike had,
puncture protection is just as good if not better, I no longer feel afraid to take bends at speed in the wet but they wont last as long as the gators or hardshells

Like OleRodrigo above, I wont be going back on them again

martyc5674

dahat wrote: »

Those tyre's linked are €17 on Chainreaction, very reasonably priced.

German site BikeDiscount.de I think has them at €32 each plus €7 postage if my memory serves me correctly.

Cheers for the heads up...was about to pull the trigger on a pair of michelin pro 4's and went with these instead...im sure they are every bit as good.
Marty

xebec

Another vote for 4 Seasons here. Have Gatorskins on my commuter and they feel horrible, but serve the purpose. GP4000 SII are fantastic, provide lots of confidence in cornering and generally feel great - however tore the side-walls on 3 tyres over the course of a few months. Have since put 4 Seasons on the bike and they make a good compromise - not as nice as GP4000s but not costing me a fortune in tyres either.

Wishbone Ash

Have Gators on 2 of my bikes. Get the odd puncture but on a pro-rata basis much better than almost any other tyre I have fitted. They can be twitchy in the wet so I act accordingly. (noticeably on a group ride where I lose pace coming out of the bends).

On the other hand, GP4000's give a lovely ride but I punctured every time I've tried them. The side walls also seem very weak but I suppose that's the trade off for the good ride.

dahat

So the Gp4000s are likely to need replacing more often? I'm not keen on replacing them over the Summer as they are expensive.

Alek

I've just done 6000k on a pair of GP4000SII in 28mm. Rotated front/back once. They are cut and bruised properly but the thread wear indicator is still well visible.

Alanbt

Gatorskins are far from confidence inspiring in the wet. I would never buy them again

Daroxtar

I have Conti Grand Prix GT tyres on my bike. Same rubber compound as the 4000s but better puncture resistance. http://www.bike24.de/1.php?content=8;product=26490;menu=1000,4,22,35;mid%5B4%5D=1

€27 from bike24

De Bhál

Alanbt wrote: »

Gatorskins are far from confidence inspiring in the wet. I would never buy them again

Same here and they puncture too. Schwalbe Durano are the job for commuting on.

Wishbone Ash

De Bhál wrote: »

....Schwalbe Durano are the job for commuting on.

I fitted a pair of Durano Plus on one of my bikes last week after several punctures and blowouts. They do feel very 'dead' on the road.

Alanbt

De Bhál wrote: »

Same here and they puncture too. Schwalbe Durano are the job for commuting on.

Durano plus are ideal for commuting. Very reliable and puncture resistant. I get 2 punctures max per year. Usually less.
They do feel a little bit sluggish so I wouldn't use them on the 'good bike'

Alek

Daroxtar wrote:

I have Conti Grand Prix GT tyres on my bike. Same rubber compound as the 4000s but better puncture resistance.

I see they come in 28mm... How wide are they when mounted on the rim?

De Bhál

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I fitted a pair of Durano Plus on one of my bikes last week after several punctures and blowouts. They do feel very 'dead' on the road.

Yep, dead and heavy. I'll take that when commuting over punctures any day of the week. That also make changing to the good bike at the weekend that bit more special they're so leaden, the tyres on the good bike feel like velvet.
Also the hold well in the wet.

07Lapierre

I've 3 bikes and all 3 have Conti GP4000's.
(Winter bike has 25mm, other two have 23mm)

Great tyre's...roll well, good puncture resistance and easy to get on/off the rims! (no tyre levers needed)

dahat

topcat77 wrote: »

I recently bought a pair of GP4000 II and they're fantastic but pricey. best all round tyre I've gotten are: http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/category/components/tyres/road/product/review-michelin-lithion-2-road-tyre-13-47178/

I just purchased these as the price point was too good to pass up plus was able tp get tubes on my budget as well.

The Gp4000s will have to wait till next renewal even though i really wanted them. Weak tyre walls put me off slightly.

Daroxtar

Alek wrote: »

I see they come in 28mm... How wide are they when mounted on the rim?

Don't know, mine are 25s. They're noticeably wider than the 23s. I'm running them at about 95psi and it feels like a different bike compared to the old 23mm tyres that were on before.

Cee-Jay-Cee

dahat wrote: »

I just purchased these as the price point was too good to pass up plus was able tp get tubes on my budget as well.

The Gp4000s will have to wait till next renewal even though i really wanted them. Weak tyre walls put me off slightly.

Good luck with them. I was given a pair of them more or less brand new (less than 100km) on them, free of charge. I fitted them and removed them two weeks later, scary in the wet, horrible sludgy feel while cycling. Nothing would ever entice me to fit the again, price point comes considerably further down the list after safety and comfort, speed and rolling resistance. I gave them away for free, I couldn't possibly take money for something I considered nasty (and I got them for free too)

jon1981

I've never paid more than 68 euro for a pair of GP4000s online. There's always deals to be had on one of the many websites I look at. On my 3rd set and would never switch to any other tyre, they are amazing and a perfect balance between protection, grip and weight.

jon1981

Daroxtar wrote: »

Don't know, mine are 25s. They're noticeably wider than the 23s. I'm running them at about 95psi and it feels like a different bike compared to the old 23mm tyres that were on before.

Different in terms of comfort or speed or? Genuinely interest to know how 25s differ for you to 23s.

I've also moved to 25s from 23s and to be honest I'm not sure it's made much different, maybe alittle more comfortable but not noticing any gains in speed or effort.

Daroxtar

jon1981 wrote: »

Different in terms of comfort or speed or? Genuinely interest to know how 25s differ for you to 23s.

I've also moved to 25s from 23s and to be honest I'm not sure it's made much different, maybe alittle more comfortable but not noticing any gains in speed or effort.

Comfort. I always ran the 23s at 110, so combination of wider rubber and slightly lower pressure is noticeable for me. The bike seems far smoother now. Speed wise I can't really notice a difference although I'm more confident on corners but that might just be psychological.

topcat77

I'm running Vision Trimax30 which are designed to run with a larger tyre (outer rim width of 24mm) with Continental Grand Prix 4000 S II (25mm) and i really notice the difference but then i'm cycling around the west coast on mostly bad surfaces.

jon1981

Daroxtar wrote: »

Comfort. I always ran the 23s at 110, so combination of wider rubber and slightly lower pressure is noticeable for me. The bike seems far smoother now. Speed wise I can't really notice a difference although I'm more confident on corners but that might just be psychological.

I still pump my 25s up to 110-120, I think it's also psychological I don't like being able to pinch the tyre with my fingers, old habits from the 23s maybe. Perhaps I'm not getting the full benefit by running them at such a high pressure.

jon1981

http://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/continental-grand-prix-4000-s-ii-23-622-black-69793/wg_id-246

33 euro for 23s ... 35 euro for 25s.

mossym

jon1981 wrote: »

Different in terms of comfort or speed or? Genuinely interest to know how 25s differ for you to 23s.

I've also moved to 25s from 23s and to be honest I'm not sure it's made much different, maybe alittle more comfortable but not noticing any gains in speed or effort.

i ran GP4000S II 23s on both my road bike and race bike last year, including the aero wheel and the disc. . based on numerous articles and pieces i've read i've bought 3* 25 4000SII to put on my race wheels, and will use 23's on the road bike. Primary reason was they are supposed to run faster.

not tried them yet to see, and they probably won't get an outing that would tell one way or another until april at the earliest, and possible june

dahat

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Good luck with them. I was given a pair of them more or less brand new (less than 100km) on them, free of charge. I fitted them and removed them two weeks later, scary in the wet, horrible sludgy feel while cycling. Nothing would ever entice me to fit the again, price point comes considerably further down the list after safety and comfort, speed and rolling resistance. I gave them away for free, I couldn't possibly take money for something I considered nasty (and I got them for free too)

These Michelins or the Gator skins?

jon1981

mossym wrote: »

i ran GP4000S II 23s on both my road bike and race bike last year, including the aero wheel and the disc. . based on numerous articles and pieces i've read i've bought 3* 25 4000S to put on my race wheels, and will use 23's on the road bike. Primary reason was they are supposed to run faster.

not tried them yet to see, and they probably won't get an outing that would tell one way or another until april at the earliest, and possible june

Be interested to hear your report on that. Given you're a competitive cyclist, you will have some basis for comparison (more so that me anyway )

mossym

jon1981 wrote: »

Given you're a competitive cyclist, you will have some basis for comparison (more so that me anyway )

that i'm not. bit under my username should give a clue. but still looking to go as quick as i can

ford2600

http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/

Not sure how the test method transfers to the real world where surfaces can vary a lot, but it probably depends where you ride and what kinda of routes you like. ( I rode the Inner Ring 200 in Kerry in November and ignored a road closed sign at top of Molls Gap on road leading to Black Valley, 5km on Clause 804 wasn't much fun, but Durano plus can handle that, Ultremos probably not)

For the tar and chip surface, especially when it is in bad repair, wider tyres at lower pressure are your best chance.

If your doing 40/50km spins and want to go as fast as you can, you might put up with a bit of discomfort with higher pressures. Wider tyres at lower pressure are your best chance of doing long distance on crap surfaces; if you are a heavy guy, fit the widest tyres you can, 28mm if possible.

On gator skins, they ae the only tyre that I lost grip on. Last June when riding a long route with a friend he lost it on a wet road at very low speed(circa 10km/h ). He's a fairly decent rider and the road was fine in terms of surface condition. He had Gator skins to.

I'm going to see if I can fit 28 Gp4000 on bike

dahat

ford2600 wrote: »

http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/

Not sure how the test method transfers to the real world where surfaces can vary a lot, but it probably where you ride and what kinda of routes you like. ( I rode the Inner Ring 200 in Kerry in November and ignored a road closed sign at top of Molls Gap on road leading to Black Valley, 5km on Clause 804 wasn't much fun, but Durano plus can handle that, Ultremos probably not)

For the tar and chip surface, especially when it is in bad repair, wider tyres at lower pressure are your best chance.

If your doing 40/50km spins and want to go as fast as you can, you might put up with a bit of discomfort with higher pressures. Wider tyres at lower pressure are your best chance of doing long distance on crap surfaces; if you are a heavy guy, fit the widest tyres you can, 28mm if possible.

On gator skins, they ae the only tyre that I lost grip on. Last June when riding a long route with a friend he lost it on a wet road at very low speed(circa 10km/h ). He's a fairly decent rider and the road was fine in terms of surface condition. He had Gator skins to.

I'm going to see if I can fit 28 Gp4000 on bike

Currently running Schwalbe Lugano 23's and bought the Michelin 23's which I'm sure is an upgrade. Wasn't sure if the bike would take a 25 tyre but really saw no need to go up in size just yet.

I am a heavy lad, 110kgs but im not any more uncomfortable on a bike with 23 on than id expect to be if you get me. I inflate to 110-115psi.

Those Gator skins sound like death traps looking at this thread alone.

ford2600

dahat wrote: »

Currently running Schwalbe Lugano 23's and bought the Michelin 23's which I'm sure is an upgrade. Wasn't sure if the bike would take a 25 tyre but really saw no need to go up in size just yet.

I am a heavy lad, 110kgs but im not any more uncomfortable on a bike with 23 on than id expect to be if you get me. I inflate to 110-115psi.

Those Gator skins sound like death traps looking at this thread alone.

If you are not uncomfortable then don't worry about it.

The back road from Carrick to Clonmel is a good road to test comfort set up

mossym

ford2600 wrote: »

If you are not uncomfortable then don't worry about it.

The back road from Carrick to Clonmel is a good road to test comfort set up

or just cycle through tipp town

ford2600

mossym wrote: »

or just cycle through tipp town

Is everything rough there..:pac:

dahat

ford2600 wrote: »

If you are not uncomfortable then don't worry about it.

The back road from Carrick to Clonmel is a good road to test comfort set up

Or Kilsheelan to Fethard, road ruined by heavy vehicles.
Will try that back road then to see at some point.

Wishbone Ash

dahat wrote: »

.....Those Gator skins sound like death traps looking at this thread alone.

There's ordinary Gatorskins and Gator Hard Shells. The ordinary ones are ok when run at 100psi. The Hardshells have more puncture resistance but can be twitchy in the wet particularly if run at 120psi.

(I had them on my commuter, and although I've come off a few times on black ice, I've never come off because of the tyres. In saying that, I don't push them through corners/roundabouts when it's wet).

Cee-Jay-Cee

dahat wrote: »

These Michelins or the Gator skins?

Gatorskins.

Alek

ford2600 wrote:

I'm going to see if I can fit 28 Gp4000 on bike

They measure ~31mm on 19mm rims. Perhaps 25 are closer to 28mm?