The Word 'Females'

kylith

Am I the only one who cringes when she sees this word in a thread title? It always seems to be phrased along the lines of 'Do Females...' Or 'Why Do Females...' I find it dehumanising because I think it's a word usually used for animals. It lumps an entire gender together as though we're some other species.

Or am I being over sensitive and it's being used to include f-m transgender people too? Do the people who use the word 'females' also refer to men as 'males'?

Stheno

It bugs me too, it doesn't seem that the term "males" is used in the same way.

Any time I see "females" in a thread title, I automatically get a mindset that it's a negative thread about women.

meeeeh

Maybe because I am not native speaker but it goes completely over my head. It's not like the threads that start with 'Why do Women/Men' have anything positive to say either. I usually avoid all of them.

iwantmydinner

Bugs me too.

When I hear/read 'female' I always think "...what? Female of what species? Please qualify"

Also when I read it my brain puts it into David Attenborough's voice as he describes the habits of female cheetahs or something.

Links234

kylith wrote: »

Or am I being over sensitive and it's being used to include f-m transgender people too?

I might be going out on a limb here, but I don't think trans men would be very pleased to be refered to as female. Besides, I know exactly what you mean with the way 'females' get used and the type of folks who use it that way don't strike me as the kind to be inclusive of trans people in the first place.

IvyTheTerrible

I'm a straight woman and I hate being referred to as a female.
It's very dehumanizing, and IMO shows an inherent lack of respect for women in the person using it.
(A bit like when people who don't like a particular child referring to the child as "it").

iwantmydinner

Whatever about 'females', 'it' is just the meanest thing ever

Dolbert

There's a high chance that any thread titled with the word "females" may also contain the word "beta" in there somewhere

Faith

I have honestly never given it a second thought . Although I see your points, now that you're talking about it, but I can't actually even think of an instance where I noticed the word 'females' in a thread title.

sullivlo

Faith wrote: »

I have honestly never given it a second thought . Although I see your points, now that you're talking about it, but I can't actually even think of an instance where I noticed the word 'females' in a thread title.

I thought the same as you Faith - never thought about it.

Then I noticed a thread in AH called "do females watch porn?" And it actually irked me.

inocybe

I think I cringe more at 'ladies'

sullivlo

inocybe wrote: »

I think I cringe more at 'ladies'

Nah. Ladies and gentlemen. That just rolls off the tongue.

The only exception to the use of "ladies" is when discussing gender specific rugby. Ladies don't play rugby I always refer to it as women's rugby.

Also I prefer "the ladies lounge" over "the females lounge", and if I was greeting my friends I'd be more inclined to say "good evening ladies" rather than "hello females".

Actually yeah now that I think about it, female just feels all wrong. It should only be used on official dorms to denote gender, never in general conversation.

IvyTheTerrible

Just for info and with my mod hat on, be careful not to mention other forums or posters,

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

It doesn't bug me really, though I can certainly see why it would be irritating. I do a lot of work in the areas of suicide and rape (I'm available for dinner parties!), where statistics would be discussed a lot, and from that I'm kind of in the habit of saying 'males and females' rather than 'men and women'.

I rather suspect that that's where the habit of using it in online discourse has come from too (not talking about boards here, more reddit, return of the kings and so on), it adds a nice little subtle patina of scientific legitimacy to raging misogyny by copying the language.

Though I'm certainly guilty of doing it myself, and of saying 'males' instead of men. I dunno, it's a thinker

Haha I was just posting about this elsewhere.

It always sounds like ferengi talking to me. With the attitudes and all.

Feeeeeeemales

You never see someone asking "do males do x" or "I saw a male crossing the road" etc

sullivlo

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

Just for info and with my mod hat on, be careful not to mention other forums or posters,

Ajopolies!!

Stheno

I know a trainer who calls their class both male and female guys, rather than ladies and gentlemen or whatever.

They got complaints from women students that they didn't like the term being used!

IvyTheTerrible

sullivlo wrote: »

Ajopolies!!

No worries, I just don't want to get anyone into trouble!

Das Kitty

I suppose "females" are easier to categorise on a numerical scale of how fcukable they are.

Women might have minds, and take exception.

Some people seem to think the world revolves around their desire to put their dick places. That's the sort of individual who says females instead of women.

Emmadilema123

When I hear male I think something along the lines of "Gardai are searching for a young male..."

Probably not too flattering for women and men!

sullivlo

Ha. Just remembered a semi embarrassing moment. During my PhD someone had to explain the difference between a female and a male leur connection on syringes, and why they're called male and female

fatknacker

Reminds me of the the journal article from yesterday

‘Macho culture’ at BBC allowed Jimmy Savile to abuse 57 females and 15 boys
http://jrnl.ie/2623573

I don't see much of a thing about it myself but wouldn't mix them up in a heading. I'd use female and male in a formal way, like "the author is male" rather than "the author is a man"

woodchuck

It doesn't bother me in the slightest.

To be honest I think men just can't win when it comes to this! Whether they refer to us as girls/women/ladies/females etc, someone is going to get offended because it labels them as too young/old/proper/animalistic etc :rolleyes:

meeeeh

fatknacker wrote: »

Reminds me of the the journal article from yesterday

‘Macho culture’ at BBC allowed Jimmy Savile to abuse 57 females and 15 boys
http://jrnl.ie/2623573

That makes sense to me. It means he assaulted adult women, girls and boys. He didn't assault grown men.

B0jangles

I find it unpleasant, not so much in itself but because it is so commonly used in the kind of discussion which reduces all women to some kind of mysterious hivemind that needs to be analysed and decoded.

To me it has the same sort of overtones as calling black people "blacks" - its just wrong.

woodchuck

B0jangles wrote: »

I find it unpleasant, not so much in itself but because it is so commonly used in the kind of discussion which reduces all women to some kind of mysterious hivemind that needs to be analysed and decoded.

To me it has the same sort of overtones as calling black people "blacks" - its just wrong.

But what word should be used when referring to our gender as a whole?

To me the word female is actually the most accurate. If you say girls, it refers to young females. If you say women, it refers to adult females. The word female means just that; all females (regardless of age). Another word is ladies. But the word lady can have certain implications too about how we're meant to act (i.e. ladylike). It also conjures up the image of young adult women as opposed to the whole gender. Any other word(s) aside from female that would suffice?

Personally I think that we as a gender need to come to a consensus on this to inform the poor male folk as to the correct terminology to use so as not to risk offending us. Or we could just not overthink a perfectly valid word :rolleyes: PC gone crazy if you ask me...

meeeeh

I agree up to a point. There seems to be a general rule that a thread started with female in the title will contain some nonsense. But so will most of threads with woman in the title.

In general I would more make fuss about content than use of the word female. BTW I find ladies very archaic and patronizing. That is a word from a time when women did feck all but be a lady.

B0jangles

woodchuck wrote: »

But what word should be used when referring to our gender as a whole?

To me the word female is actually the most accurate. If you say girls, it refers to young females. If you say women, it refers to adult females. The word female means just that; all females (regardless of age). Another word is ladies. But the word lady can have certain implications too about how we're meant to act (i.e. ladylike). It also conjures up the image of young adult women as opposed to the whole gender. Any other word(s) aside from female that would suffice?

Personally I think that we as a gender need to come to a consensus on this to inform the poor male folk as to the correct terminology to use so as not to risk offending us. Or we could just not overthink a perfectly valid word :rolleyes: PC gone crazy if you ask me...

Is time really so short that people can't type out "girls and women"?

Words have connotations beyond their basic dictionary definitions, in my opinion referring to girls/women as "Females" has unpleasant undertones.

Also "PC gone crazy" -really?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

meeeeh wrote: »

I agree up to a point. There seems to be a general rule that a thread started with female in the title will contain some nonsense. But so will most of threads with woman in the title.

In general I would more make fuss about content than use of the word female. BTW I find ladies very archaic and patronizing. That is a word from a time when women did feck all but be a lady.

+1

Whether an online discussion begins with 'How do females...', 'Why do women...' or 'What's up with these bitchezzz....' it's probably going to degenerate into slagging women.

And IRL, the word 'ladies' or 'girls' can get my hackles up, completely depending on who's using it and the general vibe I'm getting from them about they view women

woodchuck

B0jangles wrote: »

Is time really so short that people can't type out "girls and women"?

Words have connotations beyond their basic dictionary definitions, in my opinion referring to girls/women as "Females" has unpleasant undertones.

Also "PC gone crazy" -really?

Would you bother typing out "boys and men" if you were referring to males of all ages?

I honestly don't see the unpleasant undertones to the word female at all. Maybe it's because of my scientific background. It's just an accurate biological term to me. Same as males.

B0jangles

Context is everything.

Someone is carrying out a scientific study on the effect of substance X on male and female subjects. In the data they refer to them as males and females - FINE

If someone is on a night out and greets the women present by saying "How are all you Females doing tonight?" - WEIRD

(also I'd refer to Boys/Men casually, "Males" only in a science context.)

woodchuck

Wilson Future Mincemeat wrote: »

+1

Whether an online discussion begins with 'How do females...', 'Why do women...' or 'What's up with these bitchezzz....' it's probably going to degenerate into slagging women.

And IRL, the word 'ladies' or 'girls' can get my hackles up, completely depending on who's using it and the general vibe I'm getting from them about they view women

I do agree that threads based on generalisations (of any group of people) are annoying. I just don't see why the word female in particular would be annoying.

woodchuck

B0jangles wrote: »

Context is everything.

Someone is carrying out a scientific study on the effect of substance X on male and female subjects. In the data they refer to them as males and females - FINE

If someone is on a night out and greets the women present by saying "How are all you Females doing tonight?" - WEIRD

(also I'd refer to Boys/Men casually, "Males" only in a science context.)

Well yeah, that would sounds a little weird I wouldn't actually get offended though. Obviously if the 'females' in front of you are young, it would make more sense to say "how are all you girls tonight".

I think the bigger issue is generalisation of females/girls/women (gah, whatever you want to call us :P) rather than arguing over the vocabulary used to do so.

B0jangles

woodchuck wrote: »

Well yeah, that would sounds a little weird I wouldn't actually get offended though. Obviously if the 'females' in front of you are young, it would make more sense to say "how are all you girls tonight".

I think the bigger issue is generalisation of females/girls/women (gah, whatever you want to call us :P) rather than arguing over the vocabulary used to do so.

Oh most definitely, I just think the language used is a symptom of the fundamental problem.

Cosmicfox

Makes me think of redpillers.

fatknacker

There's no casual collective term for females though. Males have guys and lads. Females have...uh. Bitches.

sullivlo

fatknacker wrote: »

There's no casual collective term for females though. Males have guys and lads. Females have...uh. Bitches.

And there's no socially acceptable shortened name for vagina.

Men have penis (formal) and willy (informal).

Women have vagina (formal) and ??? All that comes to mind is derogatory names for female genitals that make me cringe. I think I usually just say "lady parts" but that's ridiculous.

You never read anything like 'There were several males at the bar' or 'A male approached me'. Or at least I can't think of any example. They get the dignity of humanity, we get to be just a gender. Is it an avoidance of the word woman?

Whenever I read anything like 'There were females at the bar', I form an impression of what that poster is like, and further reading generally reveals that impression to be correct.

Sometimes it's appropriate and in context, less often that not though.

fatknacker

sullivlo wrote: »

And there's no socially acceptable shortened name for vagina.

Men have penis (formal) and willy (informal).

Women have vagina (formal) and ??? All that comes to mind is derogatory names for female genitals that make me cringe. I think I usually just say "lady parts" but that's ridiculous.

Fanny is fairly inoffensive and the least vulgar, I think. And also makes for hilarious misunderstandings with Americans.

Dial Hard

As others have said, it's all about the context.

Of course there's nothing inherently offensive about the word female. But it's increasingly being appropriated in an unpleasant way by MRA types and it's when I see it being used in that context that it really grates on me. Moreso than an equivalent "Why do women do X?" post would because the tone, imo, is nastier.

It can be a very subtle distinction at times, but it's there.

Ice Maiden

"Girls" is the casual collective term for women like "lads/fellas/guys" for men I thought?

I would also view "blacks" no differently to referring to "whites" - unless the intent/context is derogatory of course.

Some on this thread dislike "girls" or "ladies" - again, context/intent I think.

Lisacatlover

fatknacker wrote: »

Fanny is fairly inoffensive and the least vulgar, I think. And also makes for hilarious misunderstandings with Americans.

Gee is another one.

sullivlo

Lisacatlover wrote: »

Gee is another one.

I just can't see a kid saying fanny or gee! I also majorly dislike the words & some may view them as offensive. I'm probably overreacting though!

Permabear

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Permabear

Permabear wrote: »

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There are plenty of times when the use is appropriate, as you point out there. It's when it's used instead of "women" or "Girls" where they would be perfectly fitting and appropriate.

I used to find the word lady dated, but after hearing the word 'Bitch' bandied around more and more over the last five or six years, I'm starting to appreciate it. I have a more open interpretation of the word, one of a woman who is polite, measured, prudent, discreet, respectful. I quite like it.

Permabear

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Permabear

Permabear wrote: »

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No ladies in any area of Dublin wear pajamas as daywear!

I suppose some would see sarcasm, I wouldn't. Might be something to do with not being Irish though.

The word is used by someone who is nervous of women and is often used unconsciousness, its similar to saying and this is one for the 'ladies', it is a way of avoiding the word woman.

Stheno

mariaalice wrote: »

The word is used by someone who is nervous of women and is often used unconsciousness, its similar to saying and this is on one for the 'ladies', it is a way of avoiding the word woman.

I disagree, in my work I often interact with people who know other women that I am in contact with, and I will often say "oh is she a very petite lady" or "is she a lady who has a really unique dress sense?"

When I'm referring to women in the singular I find lady a far nicer term to use, especially in conversations with near strangers.

There is a difference between ladies and lady.

LeeLooLee

You could argue for days about the literal meaning of female vs woman or whatever, but to me it's about how it's said and and who says it. In my experience, when it comes from men, it's nearly always in a misogynistic tone.