Daily verse discussion thread.

solodeogloria

Good evening all!

A few days ago in my Bible reading plan I came by this beautiful little passage:

Luke 7:36-50 ESV wrote:

One of the Pharisees asked him to eat with him, and he went into the Pharisee's house and reclined at the table. And behold, a woman of the city, who was a sinner, when she learned that he was reclining at table in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster flask of ointment,and standing behind him at his feet, weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears and wiped them with the hair of her head and kissed his feet and anointed them with the ointment. Now when the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, “If this man were a prophet, he would have known who and what sort of woman this is who is touching him, for she is a sinner.” And Jesus answering said to him, “Simon, I have something to say to you.” And he answered, “Say it, Teacher.”

“A certain moneylender had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. When they could not pay, he cancelled the debt of both. Now which of them will love him more?” Simon answered, “The one, I suppose, for whom he cancelled the larger debt.” And he said to him, “You have judged rightly.” Then turning toward the woman he said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave me no water for my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. You gave me no kiss, but from the time I came in she has not ceased to kiss my feet. You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment. Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven—for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little, loves little.” And he said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” Then those who were at table with him began to say among themselves,“Who is this, who even forgives sins?” And he said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

I remember reading this passage about 9 years ago before becoming a Christian for myself. It softened my hard heart and made me see how wonderful Jesus is.

Jesus is at the house of Simon a Pharisee and a 'sinful woman' comes in weeping at Jesus' feet and pours perfume over them. We don't know how she sinned the passage is silent on that.

The self righteousness of verse 39 is stunning. They seem to say that Jesus can't be a prophet because he hasn't condemned the sinner. We don't know if Jesus heard his comment or perceives that He has made it but his parable is wonderful.

The one who loves most has the greatest debt cancelled. Jesus sees that this woman has shown love to Him and says that her sins are forgiven. There's no barrier to Jesus. Rich or poor, black or white, male or female he can forgive anyone.

Note also Jesus doesn't endorse her sin to love her but simply declares her sin forgiven. Which causes the Pharisees an issue. Of course only Jesus could only forgive sins if He was God, not a prophet, not a man.

It is the wonder of this Jesus who turns the religious I can work my way to heaven thinking upside down that keeps me a Christian. You see the Gospel is powerfully realistic. I can't make myself right or scrub myself up. At the end of the day I am a sinner but Jesus offers His mercy to me even when I screw up daily. He solves the sin problem that man tries to ignore or tries to scrub up by works based religion. At the end of the day only God can rescue, Jesus enters our broken fragile world. There is nothing that makes you too bad or too sinful for Jesus. We can come to Him. I was this woman in my own way. Putting Jesus at arms length and refusing to acknowledge Him as Lord. How foolish, how selfish.

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this beautiful passage? How does it keep you walking with Jesus today? How does it challenge your view of Christianity?

Much thanks in Christ Jesus,
solodeogloria

solodeogloria

Good morning all!

This passage is quite close to my heart. It is related in a way to yesterday's passage. It is the mechanics of how we can be saved despite our sin. It's so good to be able to marvel at Jesus and see why we love Him.

Ephesians 2:1-10 ESV wrote:

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

This passage tells us a lot. The first thing it tells us is hard to stomach. Paul tells us that we have a problem. We are dead because of our sins. Our rebellion against God means that He wasn't at work in us. We were spiritually dead. Living for our own selfish gratification. I know that is true of me. By turning our backs on God we are children of wrath. Meaning rightfully deserving of God's wrath for our sin.

The next two words are marvellous. "But God". Thank God. We aren't left that way. God loves us and makes us alive in Christ. We are reconciled. The relationship we were meant to have with Him from the beginning is marvellously available. Even when we were dead we were made alive. Jesus brings about a spiritual resurrection in every believer. How does this happen? "By grace". There's nothing inherently great about us morally. In fact much is wretched. But grace isn't dependent on what we can do but what Jesus has done. Praise God. He rescues.

Works based religion doesn't rescue. Paul underlines it. This salvation is not of our own doing, not of our works. We can't boast as a result. God doesn't just rescue the sinful person but He also sees us as His workmanship. He helps us to live a godly life. The good works we do by His grace are just that His works in us. We can't boast.

How wonderful! I'm thankful for the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! How kind and how merciful He is to us daily.

What do you think? How does this passage help us to give thanks? How does it stop us from the horrible trap of works based religion rather than grace given righteousness in Christ?

Have a great day!

Much thanks in Christ Jesus,
solodeogloria

The Chieftain

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning all!

This passage is quite close to my heart. It is related in a way to yesterday's passage. It is the mechanics of how we can be saved despite our sin. It's so good to be able to marvel at Jesus and see why we love Him.



This passage tells us a lot. The first thing it tells us is hard to stomach. Paul tells us that we have a problem. We are dead because of our sins. Our rebellion against God means that He wasn't at work in us. We were spiritually dead. Living for our own selfish gratification. I know that is true of me. By turning our backs on God we are children of wrath. Meaning rightfully deserving of God's wrath for our sin.

The next two words are marvellous. "But God". Thank God. We aren't left that way. God loves us and makes us alive in Christ. We are reconciled. The relationship we were meant to have with Him from the beginning is marvellously available. Even when we were dead we were made alive. Jesus brings about a spiritual resurrection in every believer. How does this happen? "By grace". There's nothing inherently great about us morally. In fact much is wretched. But grace isn't dependent on what we can do but what Jesus has done. Praise God. He rescues.

Works based religion doesn't rescue. Paul underlines it. This salvation is not of our own doing, not of our works. We can't boast as a result. God doesn't just rescue the sinful person but He also sees us as His workmanship. He helps us to live a godly life. The good works we do by His grace are just that His works in us. We can't boast.

How wonderful! I'm thankful for the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! How kind and how merciful He is to us daily.

What do you think? How does this passage help us to give thanks? How does it stop us from the horrible trap of works based religion rather than grace given righteousness in Christ?

Have a great day!

Much thanks in Christ Jesus,
solodeogloria

You are falling into an elementary mistake in Biblical exegesis. You are relying on a single passage, and denying the whole. The whole includes not just the well known stress on the necessity of good works in the epistle of St. James, but also St. Paul's own admonitions to the Romans, 2:6-8 - that God will render to every man according to his deeds. You would do well to ponder this.

The Chieftain

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening all!

A few days ago in my Bible reading plan I came by this beautiful little passage:


I remember reading this passage about 9 years ago before becoming a Christian for myself. It softened my hard heart and made me see how wonderful Jesus is.

Jesus is at the house of Simon a Pharisee and a 'sinful woman' comes in weeping at Jesus' feet and pours perfume over them. We don't know how she sinned the passage is silent on that.

The self righteousness of verse 39 is stunning. They seem to say that Jesus can't be a prophet because he hasn't condemned the sinner. We don't know if Jesus heard his comment or perceives that He has made it but his parable is wonderful.

The one who loves most has the greatest debt cancelled. Jesus sees that this woman has shown love to Him and says that her sins are forgiven. There's no barrier to Jesus. Rich or poor, black or white, male or female he can forgive anyone.

Note also Jesus doesn't endorse her sin to love her but simply declares her sin forgiven. Which causes the Pharisees an issue. Of course only Jesus could only forgive sins if He was God, not a prophet, not a man.

It is the wonder of this Jesus who turns the religious I can work my way to heaven thinking upside down that keeps me a Christian. You see the Gospel is powerfully realistic. I can't make myself right or scrub myself up. At the end of the day I am a sinner but Jesus offers His mercy to me even when I screw up daily. He solves the sin problem that man tries to ignore or tries to scrub up by works based religion. At the end of the day only God can rescue, Jesus enters our broken fragile world. There is nothing that makes you too bad or too sinful for Jesus. We can come to Him. I was this woman in my own way. Putting Jesus at arms length and refusing to acknowledge Him as Lord. How foolish, how selfish.

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this beautiful passage? How does it keep you walking with Jesus today? How does it challenge your view of Christianity?

Much thanks in Christ Jesus,
solodeogloria

Biblical exegesis is fraught with traps for the unwary. I believe it was the passages you quoted above that prompted a famous incident. IIRC, missionaries told this parable to a local warlord, who hearing it, wished to be forgiven by God. So, he went out and murdered, raped and pillaged. All the better to be forgiven the more. The logic was impeccable, but somehow, I think that was not God's true message.

solodeogloria

Good morning!

This is why as you said on the other thread that we need to take the Bible as a whole. True repentance is required for forgiveness. Paul discusses not using grace as a licence to sin both in Romans and Galatians. Sin should grieve us to the core as it grieves God (see Genesis 6 before the flood). Sin is serious and grieves God. If you love God you will be genuinely remorseful.

The logical flow of Jesus saying whoever is forgiven much loves much is that if someone doesn't love much they haven't been forgiven much. Don't you agree?

This passage about God's mercy remains true. Works based religion still doesn't save anyone.

Does that help? I'd love to work this through with you.

Much thanks in Christ Jesus,
solodeogloria

solodeogloria

Good morning!

Let's stick with Ephesians and Romans for now. I love them both. Romans was key to my understanding of the nuts and bolts of the Gospel.

I don't think I'm ignoring the whole. There's two types of Biblical context we consider. Book contexts - within Romans and Ephesians for example and the whole Bible context. I'm going to look at the book context of Ephesians and Romans on this subject for now.

Ephesians - we've just seen in chapter 1 that Paul chose us from the foundation of the world (v10) according to His sovereign plan for the fullness of time in Christ's death and resurrection. We also see that He has lavished His grace on us as a gift. Paul then describes what we were like and what Christ has done (this passage) before we knew Christ and after. After this passage in the rest of chapter 2 Paul describes how we are 'in Christ' and how his church is built on the cornerstone Jesus (built on the Psalms saying that the cornerstone would be a rock of stumbling and offence). Ephesians 3 and 4 discusses how this church works and 5 & 6 discuss practical application of God's grace in the believers life. Marriage, children and slavery are discussed in particular.

Romans - Paul has just been explaining that the wrath of God has been revealed against all ungodliness in the section from 1:18-32. Before this in verses 16 and 17 in chapter 1 Paul says that the Gospel is the power of God onto salvation for those who believe. Romans 3 and 4 explicitly rule out works based salvation. Romans 4 even uses Abraham as an example. He was reckoned righteous by his faith and not his works. Romans 2 is to show that the problem we have is that without Christ we will be judged by our works. That's true. We're all guilty according to chapter 3 and there's no escape from God's wrath being revealed towards sinners apart from Jesus taking God's wrath on Himself through the cross (3:21-31) and like this passage he says there's no room for boasting. The problem with works based salvation is that it refuses to acknowledge the simple truth that if we were judged by our works we'd all deserve to go to hell. Galatians says that it makes the cross pointless (Galatians 2:20-21). No, it isn't because I desperately need the cross and so do you. Jesus didn't die for nothing.

Does this help? I'd love to work it through with you.

Ephesians 4:29 says we should use our words for building up rather than tearing down. Our words should give grace to our hearers whether Christians or not. Please build me up - if I'm wrong be a brother in Christ to me and help me to see and I'll give thanks to the Lord for you!

Much thanks in Christ Jesus,
solodeogloria

solodeogloria

Good morning all!

This is another passage that reminds me why I keep following Him. It tells us about Jesus but also about His flock and what they should look like.

John 10 ESV wrote:

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.

So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”

There was again a division among the Jews because of these words. Many of them said, “He has a demon, and is insane; why listen to him?” Others said, “These are not the words of one who is oppressed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”

At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.”

The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken— do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming’, because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.” Again they sought to arrest him, but he escaped from their hands.

He went away again across the Jordan to the place where John had been baptizing at first, and there he remained. And many came to him. And they said, “John did no sign, but everything that John said about this man was true.” And many believed in him there.

So what do we learn about Jesus here?
- Jesus is the door of the sheepfold. Nobody can come into it by any other way.
Jesus says that He is also the shepherd of the sheep.
Jesus will lay down His life for His sheep.
Jesus will hold onto His sheep.

What do we learn about His flock?
- His flock hear His voice and run from strangers.
- They know His voice and the sheep follow Him.
- The flock who enter by Jesus will be saved.
- Jesus has another fold with sheep who are His (either Gentiles or those who haven't heard about Him)
- Nobody is able to snatch Jesus' flock from His hand. His people are eternally secure.

It's worth noting that we get an example if those who are not of His flock. The Pharisees who refuse to listen to Him.

We can also see how Jesus regarded the Bible. It cannot be broken - it is the single narrative of the whole if salvation history from beginning to end.

There's lots lots more that I've not touched and lots we can observe from this passage but I'm hoping that God willing this will be a springboard to love Jesus more. I hope these posts will help us hear Jesus' voice daily so we can be more like Him.

How can this passage help us love Jesus more?
How does it change our view of the church as Christ's flock?
How are we hearing Jesus' voice daily?
How does this change your view of Christianity?

Much thanks in Christ Jesus,
solodeogloria

The Chieftain

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning!

Let's stick with Ephesians and Romans for now. I love them both. Romans was key to my understanding of the nuts and bolts of the Gospel.

I don't think I'm ignoring the whole. There's two types of Biblical context we consider. Book contexts - within Romans and Ephesians for example and the whole Bible context. I'm going to look at the book context of Ephesians and Romans on this subject for now.

Ephesians - we've just seen in chapter 1 that Paul chose us from the foundation of the world (v10) according to His sovereign plan for the fullness of time in Christ's death and resurrection. We also see that He has lavished His grace on us as a gift. Paul then describes what we were like and what Christ has done (this passage) before we knew Christ and after. After this passage in the rest of chapter 2 Paul describes how we are 'in Christ' and how his church is built on the cornerstone Jesus (built on the Psalms saying that the cornerstone would be a rock of stumbling and offence). Ephesians 3 and 4 discusses how this church works and 5 & 6 discuss practical application of God's grace in the believers life. Marriage, children and slavery are discussed in particular.

Romans - Paul has just been explaining that the wrath of God has been revealed against all ungodliness in the section from 1:18-32. Before this in verses 16 and 17 in chapter 1 Paul says that the Gospel is the power of God onto salvation for those who believe. Romans 3 and 4 explicitly rule out works based salvation. Romans 4 even uses Abraham as an example. He was reckoned righteous by his faith and not his works. Romans 2 is to show that the problem we have is that without Christ we will be judged by our works. That's true. We're all guilty according to chapter 3 and there's no escape from God's wrath being revealed towards sinners apart from Jesus taking God's wrath on Himself through the cross (3:21-31) and like this passage he says there's no room for boasting. The problem with works based salvation is that it refuses to acknowledge the simple truth that if we were judged by our works we'd all deserve to go to hell. Galatians says that it makes the cross pointless (Galatians 2:20-21). No, it isn't because I desperately need the cross and so do you. Jesus didn't die for nothing.

Does this help? I'd love to work it through with you.

Ephesians 4:29 says we should use our words for building up rather than tearing down. Our words should give grace to our hearers whether Christians or not. Please build me up - if I'm wrong be a brother in Christ to me and help me to see and I'll give thanks to the Lord for you!

Much thanks in Christ Jesus,
solodeogloria

You portrayal is such as to appear to set St. Paul against St James, and also Paul against himself, e.g. Philippians 2:13. That is obviously not a good approach, in my opinion. I prefer the understanding of the Church, based on both a consideration of the multiple texts, and history. In this traditional view, salvation is a grace from God, unmerited by us humans, but faithfulness is not just a desire for salvation, but an active working towards that end. That view reconciles both St. Paul and St. James, and St. Pauls's own multiple statements. I hope that helps.

solodeogloria

Good morning!

I don't believe Paul and James are at loggerheads either.

James doesn't say that we're saved by our works. He simply says faith without works is dead. Indeed they are. Faith saves but faith which doesn't lead to a grace based response to the Gospel is dead!

Works are the fruit of faith according to both passages. Justification is still by faith alone.

What passages can you show me that say that we are saved by our works in the New Testament.

Thanks for your post.

Much thanks in Christ,
solodeogloria

The Chieftain

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning!

This is why as you said on the other thread that we need to take the Bible as a whole. True repentance is required for forgiveness. Paul discusses not using grace as a licence to sin both in Romans and Galatians. Sin should grieve us to the core as it grieves God (see Genesis 6 before the flood). Sin is serious and grieves God. If you love God you will be genuinely remorseful.

The logical flow of Jesus saying whoever is forgiven much loves much is that if someone doesn't love much they haven't been forgiven much. Don't you agree?

Oh I understand what you are saying, but do you understand the point I was making? I was not questioning the parable as such, but pointing out that even what would appear clear and innocuous has led some into deep sin.

solodeogloria wrote: »

This passage about God's mercy remains true. Works based religion still doesn't save anyone.

Does that help? I'd love to work this through with you.

Much thanks in Christ Jesus,
solodeogloria

Please see my latest comments in the other thread for this aspect.

The Chieftain

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning!

I don't believe Paul and James are at loggerheads either.

James doesn't say that we're saved by our works. He simply says faith without works is dead. Indeed they are. Faith saves but faith which doesn't lead to a grace based response to the Gospel is dead!

Works are the fruit of faith according to both passages. Justification is still by faith alone.

What passages can you show me that say that we are saved by our works in the New Testament.

Thanks for your post.

Much thanks in Christ,
solodeogloria

You are asking me to substantiate something I did not say. It may be what you expected me to say, but that is not what I actually said. Please reread what I wrote. I think it already addresses this.

solodeogloria

Good morning!

I've replied with my understanding of both passages and I've given you the book context of Romans and Ephesians.

Forgive me - but what is there still to address? If Ephesians 2:1-10 says something else please teach me.

God willing I'll reply to you later then.

Have a great day!

Much thanks in Christ Jesus,
solodeogloria

antiskeptic

The Chieftain wrote: »

You are falling into an elementary mistake in Biblical exegesis. You are relying on a single passage, and denying the whole. The whole includes not just the well known stress on the necessity of good works in the epistle of St. James, but also St. Paul's own admonitions to the Romans, 2:6-8 - that God will render to every man according to his deeds. You would do well to ponder this.

Necessity of good works in James to what end?

Render what to every man according to his deeds?

solodeogloria

Good morning all,

This passage is massively encouraging to me whenever I read it and it stresses that Jesus' death wasn't for nothing it frees us from bondage to sin and frees us from condemnation.

Hebrews 10:1-18 ESV wrote:

For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshippers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said,

“Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body have you prepared for me;
in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.
Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’”

When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,

“This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds”,

then he adds,

“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.

You see the sacrificial system offered in the Law of Moses (discussed at length in chapter 9 of Hebrews) is just a picture of what we have in Jesus. The author picks up the idea of the Day of Atonement in Leviticus 16 and says that it is just a picture of what we have now in Jesus. Except one difference. Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient for all. The Hebrews brought the sacrifice every year into the Temple. No longer.

There is no sacrifice that any earthly priest can offer that will take away any sin. Jesus has done it all and serves continually as the Great High Priest interceding for our sins to the Father. What better advocate could we possibly have?

The passage makes clear that we are perfected through this sacrifice. Nothing else is needed. We are made perfect in Jesus. What else do we possibly need? What else will add anything to the perfection we have in Him?

The end of the passage takes up the assurances of a new era in our relationship with God in the Old Testament prophets Jeremiah (31:31-34) and assures us that we are forgiven. The day has truly arrived when God has given us His help to live for Him, and our former sins will not be brought to mind.

So - how does this passage enlarge our view of Jesus?
How does this passage encourage us?
How does this passage change our view of Christianity?

I'd love to hear from you on this.

Much thanks in our Lord Jesus Christ and His perfect sacrifice!
solodeogloria

cattolico

Is this a Solo scriptura argument regarding salvation. If so then the protestant and Catholic views have already be VERY well documented for centuries since the reformation. What will this thread add to that? The Churches that call themselves One Holy Catholic and Apostolic believe in salvation using the original Christian tradition and some protestants have a view based on their interpretation of Scripture that developed 500 years ago.

What protestants fail to understand is that Catholics don't believe in Solo Sciptura. The bible does not have a verse saying that all the repository of faith is contained ONLY there, its not written that we should believe only in the bible. Why? because the bible came from the Church, not the other way round. In 50 ad there was no bible, but there was the Church.

We can't be saved without Christ, We can agree on that. Our works won't make us more saved, however the act to living close to Christ is essential for salvation. You can't accept Christ as your saviour and not act in life as if he was not your saviour.

MrPudding

Perhaps you could explain to me the big deal about Cbrist's sacrifice. I genuinely can't see anythng worthwhile in it. Torture, followed by death, no matter how horrific, is really, in my opinion, that big a deal when one knows death will only be for three days.

As someone on boards once said, if I knew I would rise again in three days, I would die for my cat. I think if I knew I would rise agai. I would probably die for someone else's cat. I would suffer torture and die for my family, if it allowed them to survive, and that is knowing I will not rise again and, being an atheist, not believing in any afterlife.

Just not seeing the big deal here.

MrP

solodeogloria

Good morning!

It isn't an argument about anything. It's a post to get Christians marvelling at our Lord Jesus and talking about Him. As for what that adds to the forum? It adds lots towards good constructive discussion that builds Christians up in Jesus Christ. This isn't about Protestant or Catholic, but rather about what Paul is saying in Ephesians 2.

I agree that sanctification takes effort. I would also be willing to say some have unhelpfully downplayed that fact at the risk of encouraging the idea of cheap grace. It isn't a passive exercise. Paul is also particularly clear on that. However Paul is also clear here that our works don't contribute to our salvation. We aren't saved by works at all. Rather we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus so that no one can boast. Good works come as a response to the grace that we have in Jesus.

Isn't the "original Christian position" on this issue is simply what Paul wrote in Ephesians? We've got what the Apostles have written to us under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Therefore we can dwell and give thanks to God for the mercy that He has shown us in His Son.

This thread offers this forum much as we rejoice in the salvation only Jesus brings.

Does that help?

I'd love to talk more about this.

Much thanks in Christ Jesus,
solodeogloria

solodeogloria

Good morning!

Isn't it clear that Jesus is saying that the forgiveness is correlated to love? If one is not forgiven much one doesn't love much. If one uses this passage to spurn God's love and mercy in Christ by using it as a justification to sin isn't it manifestly clear that they don't love much and they haven't been forgiven?

Can we blame the Bible because some people abuse what it says for sinful ends? Should this stop us from marvelling at Christ's mercy?

Let me know your thoughts as I'd be keen to hear them.

Much thanks in Christ Jesus,
solodeogloria

solodeogloria

Good morning all!

Thought this passage would be a good one for looking at on the Lord's Day.

My pastor preached on this one a few weeks ago and I thought it'd be good to encourage us as to why it is a good thing for us and for our brothers and sisters to meet together regularly.

Hebrews 10:19-39 ESV wrote:

Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgement, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings, sometimes being publicly exposed to reproach and affliction, and sometimes being partners with those so treated. For you had compassion on those in prison, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one. Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised. For,

“Yet a little while,
and the coming one will come and will not delay;
but my righteous one shall live by faith,
and if he shrinks back,
my soul has no pleasure in him.”

But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

The passage starts off by reassuring us of the wonderful status that we have in Christ as a result of His all sufficient sacrifice. We have full access to God, or in temple language full access to the holiest places. The curtain has been torn in two. We no longer need priests to act as intermediaries between us and God but rather we have full access and full relationship with Him through our great high priest Jesus Christ. This is stressed particularly strongly earlier in Hebrews.

However things don't end there. This passage exhorts us to remain faithful to the gospel, the confession that we hold fast to. The passage exhorts us to meet together and to stir one another up to love and good works. As the day of Jesus' return edges ever so closer the passage encourages us to meet Christians "all the more" as the day draws nearer. The passage seems to be drawing a link between meeting together and remaining a follower of Jesus and being motivated to love and good works. Despite what some people say there is never such a thing as a lone ranger Christian. We need other believers and they need us.

The next passage stresses that all the more. It draws a logical connection "For" to link the next point with the necessity of meeting together. This is a strong warning. Although disobedience to the law of Moses meant death. Deliberately sinning after following Jesus means spurning the sacrifice of Christ that we learned was so wonderful. Turning our backs on Him after having known Him at first is spurning the blood of Jesus. The sacrifice is gone and it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

The author exhorts the readers to notice how far they have come in Jesus. The pain and anguish that following Him has brought them has led to Christians being imprisoned and property taken away. After all they had been through already could they really turn back now rather than seeing things through till that last day when Jesus returns. But notice, even in this suffering they are following Jesus corporately. They are visiting people in prison, their fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. It is meeting together with the hope of that last day that is vital. Here that seems to extend beyond Sunday but "more and more" as the Day is drawing near.

How does this challenge our view of meeting together as the Day draws nearer?
How can we be stirring up one another to love and good works?
Why should we keep going as Christians?

Much thanks in Christ Jesus
solodeogloria

antiskeptic

The Chieftain wrote: »

You are falling into an elementary mistake in Biblical exegesis. You are relying on a single passage, and denying the whole. The whole includes not just the well known stress on the necessity of good works in the epistle of St. James, but also St. Paul's own admonitions to the Romans, 2:6-8 - that God will render to every man according to his deeds. You would do well to ponder this.

Aren't you falling into the same elementary mistake. I mean faith without works being dead doesn't contradict the notion of salvation by faith alone. Aren't you shoehorning a very large notion (the means of salvation) into a very few words of the Bible?

Nor does God rendering to everyman according to his deeds in itself say very much about the mechanism of salvation. It certainly doesn't contradict the notion of salvation by faith alone. In itself it doesn't even talk about the afterlife!

The notion of greater or lesser reward for the saved in the afterlife, is held by those who hold to salvation by faith alone. It seems reasonable (and I'm sure substantiation can be found) that there will be greater and lesser retribution for those who don't avail of that means of salvation.

Assuming for a moment that salvation is by faith alone, God can indeed render to everyman according to his deeds, even if on both sides of the salvation divide. This verse doesn't, thus, contradict salvation by faith only.




What you need for the idea of faith + works (and also loss of salvation in the case of salvation by faith (although quite how this isn't salvation by faith and works, I can't quite understand) is structured argumentation (not a verse or two in isolation) The kind of kind of structured argumentation that Paul gives in Romans indicating salvation by faith and not by obedience to the law (a.k.a. works)

cattolico

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning!

It isn't an argument about anything. It's a post to get Christians marvelling at our Lord Jesus and talking about Him. As for what that adds to the forum? It adds lots towards good constructive discussion that builds Christians up in Jesus Christ. This isn't about Protestant or Catholic, but rather about what Paul is saying in Ephesians 2.

I agree that sanctification takes effort. I would also be willing to say some have unhelpfully downplayed that fact at the risk of encouraging the idea of cheap grace. It isn't a passive exercise. Paul is also particularly clear on that. However Paul is also clear here that our works don't contribute to our salvation. We aren't saved by works at all. Rather we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus so that no one can boast. Good works come as a response to the grace that we have in Jesus.

Isn't the "original Christian position" on this issue is simply what Paul wrote in Ephesians? We've got what the Apostles have written to us under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Therefore we can dwell and give thanks to God for the mercy that He has shown us in His Son.

This thread offers this forum much as we rejoice in the salvation only Jesus brings.

Does that help?

I'd love to talk more about this.

Much thanks in Christ Jesus,
solodeogloria

When Christ said come follow me it meant the act of following him, day by day. You can't separate grace for the act of following Christ. No acts mean you won't be saved. You can't follow Christ without acting, without using all your will to follow him. Following Christ has to involve works, his imititation, doing what he did. Protestants are not completely wrong, but they are also not completely right on this. you cant take quotes from the bible to build a faith outside the church.

cattolico

MrPudding wrote: »

Perhaps you could explain to me the big deal about Cbrist's sacrifice. I genuinely can't see anythng worthwhile in it. Torture, followed by death, no matter how horrific, is really, in my opinion, that big a deal when one knows death will only be for three days.

As someone on boards once said, if I knew I would rise again in three days, I would die for my cat. I think if I knew I would rise agai. I would probably die for someone else's cat. I would suffer torture and die for my family, if it allowed them to survive, and that is knowing I will not rise again and, being an atheist, not believing in any afterlife.

Just not seeing the big deal here.

MrP

It wasnt dying that showed his love, its becoming Man. Why would God become Man?

antiskeptic

cattolico wrote: »

When Christ said come follow me it meant the act of following him, day by day.

His exhortation didn't include a "but if you don't then"...

Exhorting my child (which is what someone becomes on being born again) to something doesn't mean he dis-becomes my child when he fails to follow my exhortation.

Pictures are important in the Bible - because pictures are something we can understand. The picture of a child is thus: one never ceases to be a child of someone no matter what. It's simply impossible. Now you can dance around on the head of theological pins. But you can't overcome a picture. It paints a thousand words. It was meant to

You can't separate grace for the act of following Christ.

Argumentation?

No acts mean you won't be saved.

No acts means no impetuous to act. No impetuous to act means no fuel to act. Fuel comes from the Holy Spirit (without me you can do nothing). But every believer has the Holy Spirit, therefore acts will follow.

That would be the faith alone position. It doesn't suppose no acts fueled by the Holy Spirit. It supposes our resisting the Holy Spirit to greater or lesser degree such as to spill his fuel. But there is no escaping the Holy Spirit and acts will follow - to greater or lesser degree.


The only difference between our positions (since all will sin) is your supposing the acts being put on some kind of Islamic weighing scale. Sufficient and you will be saved, insufficient and you won't be

(Which raises the interesting notion of the last person who scrapes into heaven based on such a balancing act .. and the person in Hell who just misses out. A line has to be, according to your method, drawn between these most blessed and most cursed of persons. One taking the Lords name in vain to many, one mass missed, one failure to give a tramp a € in a lifetime of giving tramps €)

It's ridiculous, when you focus in on the consequences of a works salvation. Simply ridiculous.

You can't follow Christ without acting, without using all your will to follow him.

Your will saves? It depends on you thus.

What is Christ? Someone who simply sets the possibility of salvation for all and then lets everyones will decide whether they are going to do the work necessary to get over the line?

Following Christ has to involve works,

The "Protestant" argument is that works will follow. No always but will. And that they aren't the basis of whether or not saved.

Protestants are not completely wrong, but they are also not completely right on this.

No one is completely right. The question is whether it is by grace only or not. That's either true or not and you can be completely right about that or not. There are Protestants who suppose you can loose your salvation. That isn't salvation by grace (since it is dependent somehow on your work). At least, I've never heard an argument as to how it can be by grace only, yet it can be lost by failure to work

you cant take quotes from the bible to build a faith outside the church.

Every man's faith is his own and he alone will answer to God. If you decide that a particular church has the true way then that's your decision, it is your faith in your evaluation that such and such church has the truth. You can swayed by historicity, Magisteria, what Jesus says (or what you think he says) but it's you doing the evaluation as to the worth and veracity of these things. Ultimately, the decision is yours. It cannot be delegated to anyone else.

To that end, you can do whatever you think makes sense to you. It's your eternal destination, afterall. Why on Earth would you bow to the opinion of any other (whatever their apparent authority) to do the deciding for you as to what is true? That's be a bit nuts.

solodeogloria

Good morning!

Thank you for your post.

I agree with your comment that Jesus calls us to follow Him. However, my following of Jesus doesn't contribute to my salvation. It is in response to my salvation! The questions that have been raised about Romans cover this. The Bible doesn't endorse works based salvation or even works contributing to it.

As for your comments on Scripture. I'd love to discuss the place of the Bible in the church with you on another thread. I don't believe the Bible is subject to the church, but the church is subject to the Bible. I also don't believe that the church can overrule the Bible.

Most of all, I don't believe I am outside the church. I'm committed to my church family and meeting them "all the more" as the Day draws near. (See my post from Sunday morning on Hebrews 10:19-39!)

Much thanks in Christ Jesus,
solodeogloria

solodeogloria

Good morning,

Thank you for your question.

Before I start replying I need to point out that I can't speculate beyond what the Bible teaches. Why God didn't do X rather than what He did questions fall into that criteria.

I can answer as to why Jesus' death matters for the Christian.

Firstly - Jesus' rescue is more important than life or death, it is about eternal life or eternal damnation. This is where it differs to you dying for your cat or your family. His death saves us from condemnation and God's rightful wrath for our rebellion against Him.

Secondly - I think much of the lack of comprehension that people have about the cross is because they don't understand the seriousness of sin and it's consequences.

Thirdly - the reason why Jesus' death matters is because He is perfect. He lived the perfect life we couldn't live. He was God but became human. It is because of His status and His humbling to death on a cross so that we might live that renders His death crucial.

It is the outcome of His death and resurrection that renders it important and valuable. Without Jesus' rescue we would be dead in our tresspasses and sins and be heading to hell. God's right judgement at our rebellion against God's rule. Christ takes God's wrath on our behalf so that we can be forgiven. That's the heart of the cross.

If you still don't understand - it is more than likely because you underestimate how serious sin is, you don't understand who Jesus is, or you aren't convicted of your own sin. Or all three!

This should be a start to thinking about it more closely. Does that help?

Let me know if you've got any more questions.

Much thanks in Christ Jesus,
solodeogloria

solodeogloria

Good morning all!

Given the week that was in it - and as the election in Ireland throws up a very uncertain outcome, I thought I'd offer us an opportunity to think about what a good government looks like from a Christian perspective.

1 Timothy 2:1-7 ESV wrote:

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Saviour, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

We see that Paul earnestly asks us to pray for all in authority over us. But what is His hope for them to do? Enact Christian laws? Enforce the Gospel on the population?

No, but simply that they would be allowed to live a "peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way". They ask for the freedom to be able to live as a Christian that is their hope and prayer.

Why do they want to live this life? To live a life that is good and pleasing to God our Saviour in every way. This is followed by God's intention for all to be saved. There is a link to leading this life that is good and pleasing to God in every way and God's salvation plan. As we live this "peaceful and godly life" others will be attracted to the Gospel of Christ.

We should concern our hearts with what God is concerned with. The salvation of those around us who don't yet know Jesus. Christianity isn't a private matter as some secularists might insist, but neither is it something to be enforced. The perfect new creation will be instituted on the last day. Any effort to create a theocratic Christian state will go horribly wrong as it isn't what God has intended for us in this world. We've seen this time and time again. What people need is a heart change that leads them to repent and follow Jesus. Not more empty moralism that doesn't change hearts and lives in any meaningful sense.

The New Testament is very relevant to our age. It speaks to Christians living in a non-Christian environment which is increasingly similar to most secular Western democracies today.

How does this passage help us to pray and be concerned for our leaders?

How does this passage change our view of Christianity?

I'm very hopeful of a good discussion on this!

Much thanks in the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Delirium

MOD NOTE

I've merged all the verse threads into a single daily verse thread as there's no real reason to start a new thread each day.

Please use this thread for future daily verse discussions.

Thanks for your attention.

MrPudding

cattolico wrote: »

It wasnt dying that showed his love, its becoming Man. Why would God become Man?

OK, so I will change my question slightly, what is the big deal about a god that is supposed to be eternal in its existence becoming a man for 33 years? Why would god become a man? Maybe he was bored... Eternity is a really, really long time. I would guess one would need to mix it up a bit to keep it fresh.

Seriously, whether it is torture and death which is, whilst brutal, is suffered knowing the death is only temporary or a god becoming a man for such a (relatively) small period of its ETERNAL existence, what is the big deal? I am really not seeing it.

These are not sacrifices that make the person or god worthy of following. They are, at best, minor inconveniences.

MrP

cattolico

MrPudding wrote: »

OK, so I will change my question slightly, what is the big deal about a god that is supposed to be eternal in its existence becoming a man for 33 years? Why would god become a man? Maybe he was bored... Eternity is a really, really long time. I would guess one would need to mix it up a bit to keep it fresh.

Seriously, whether it is torture and death which is, whilst brutal, is suffered knowing the death is only temporary or a god becoming a man for such a (relatively) small period of its ETERNAL existence, what is the big deal? I am really not seeing it.

These are not sacrifices that make the person or god worthy of following. They are, at best, minor inconveniences.

MrP

The Gospel says why, No argument I am going to give you will suffice.

But its an important question. Its the same rational that many saints have taken, giving their life knowing there was someone beyond.

antiskeptic

MrPudding wrote: »

Seriously, whether it is torture and death which is, whilst brutal, is suffered knowing the death is only temporary or a god becoming a man for such a (relatively) small period of its ETERNAL existence, what is the big deal? I am really not seeing it.

You ever see Marathon Man? The one in which Laurence Olivier drills right into the nerve on a healthy tooth belonging to Dustin Hoffman, without anaesthetic.

The pain is off the scale. The fact that its not going to last forever (I mean, Dustin's character knows he is not going to live forever) is blotted out by the very intensity of the pain. The focus then is on the pain, nothing else.

Now lets suppose an infinitely holy God (where holy mean pure, blemish-less, clean .. in the matter of that which is evil and wrong). And let's suppose this God is made of personhoods who are, because of their holiness, in perfect communion with each other. Their relationship is of an order infinitely higher than the very best of human relationships

Now lets suppose one of them becomes infinitely dirty and the perfect communion is ruptured. The loss experienced would be infinitely great for the period in which it occurred. So much so that knowledge that it is not forever (and we are not sure Jesus knew exactly what would be, his being God-made- man (in which aspects of his God-hood were laid aside)) would, just like in Dustin's case, be blotted out by the very intensity of the pain.

Infinite pain for an infinitesimally small amount of time is still infinite suffering at that time of that suffering.

solodeogloria

Good morning all!

I thought I'd share this lovely little section from the upper room discourse because it shows what Christian fellowship should look like:

John 13:31-35 ESV wrote:

When he had gone out, Jesus said, “Now is the Son of Man glorified, and God is glorified in him. If God is glorified in him,God will also glorify him in himself, and glorify him at once. Little children, yet a little while I am with you. You will seek me, and just as I said to the Jews, so now I also say to you, ‘Where I am going you cannot come.’ A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Jesus is leaving this earth and His disciples physically and they can not come with them.

So what will His people look like? So what are they to do?

Jesus commands them to love one another sacrificially as He loved them. He's not just saying just love one another. But "just as I have loved you". As much as Jesus loved us through His rescuing death on the cross and His resurrection.

And if the stakes weren't high enough. Jesus says that by doing this the world will see that they are Jesus' disciples! This isn't an optional or nice to have but essential for us and the world!

How can we love one another in our churches?
How can we love one another on this forum?
What might we need to change and repent of?

Much thanks in Christ Jesus,
solodeogloria

solodeogloria

Good morning!

I thought I'd go a bit further forward in Ephesians and look at the mechanics of a church. Should the pastor be the lone ranger in the church? What role should the congregation play?

Ephesians 4:1-16 ESV wrote:

I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. Therefore it says,

“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
    and he gave gifts to men.”

(In saying, “He ascended”, what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.

Paul insists that the church should be "eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit". But what does that really look like?
He reasserts the foundational truth that at the end of the day irrespective of what denominational boundaries we erect Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Baptist or evangelical. There is only one church the church of Christ. We are united in one Lord, one faith and one baptism. Not in the liturgy of any one church.

He gives us the apostles, he gives us evangelists, shepherds, and prophets. So we can stand firm in the Gospel. So that we might resist human cunning and deceit that could take us away from the Gospel.

Rather we are meant to speak the truth in love to one another. That is the ministry that we are equipped to do. We are all ministers in the fullest sense. We may not be pastors but we are ministers. Building one another up so the body grows and builds itself up in love.

How should this understanding change our view of church?
How can we be building each other up in love on this forum rather than tearing people down?

Much thanks in Christ and for the good gifts He gives us,
solodeogloria

solodeogloria

Good morning all!

I thought this passage from Galatians could offer some food for thought:

Galatians 2:15-21 ESV wrote:

We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

This section of Galatians comes after Paul has described his legitimate credentials as an apostle in chapter 1 and then described the issues he faced with the cirvunvusuon karty within the church and exposing Cephas' (Peter's) hypocrisy by joining in with the circumcision party.

Now Paul begins to explain that being justified through the law nullifies the work of Jesus on the cross. Nobody will be justified by the works of the law but by faith in the Lord Jesus. This is so serious that Paul goes to the length of saying that if you aim to be justified by your works you are nullifying the grace of God and you are saying Jesus' death didn't matter. It seems like Paul is saying this is a salvation issue.

How should we understand our works as a Christian?
How does this passage help us to see how important the cross is?

Much thanks in Christ Jesus and His saving death on our behalf,
solodeogloria

solodeogloria

Good morning all!

I came across this beautiful little passage which challenges our attitudes to sin.

Luke 18:9-14 ESV wrote:

He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Simply put we are comparing the prayers of two men. We can see that Jesus is telling this parable to some who trusted in their own righteousness.

The Pharisee thanks God that he isn't like the other sinners and discusses and boasts about all the works he does (as if God doesn't know!).

The tax collector begs God for mercy, and couldn't even lift his eyes to heaven.

The sinful tax collector is the one who is justified.

How does this passage change our righteousness?
How does this passage change our view of Christianity?

Much thanks in the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

MrPudding

cattolico wrote: »

The Gospel says why, No argument I am going to give you will suffice.

But its an important question. Its the same rational that many saints have taken, giving their life knowing there was someone beyond.

OK, so why do you think it is a big deal? I appreciate that I may not have the best reputation around these parts, but this is a genuine question. I really can't see what the big deal is, and I don't understand why people think it is a big deal. I really would like to understand it, as it is such an important aspect of faith, but I just don't see it.

To me, no matter how bad, or how horrifying something might be, if it is only temporary then of course one would do it for those that one loves. I would suffer the most horrific torture and death imaginable, without hesitation, to spare that end for those I love, and I would do that knowing it was the end for me.

If I knew I would rise again, I would do it for my daughter's cat.

Again, I am genuinely trying to understand this.

MrP

EirWatcher

MrPudding wrote: »

I really can't see what the big deal is, and I don't understand why people think it is a big deal. I really would like to understand it, as it is such an important aspect of faith, but I just don't see it.
...
If I knew I would rise again, I would do it for my daughter's cat.

If you were to die, knowing for certain you would rise again, then you would not be a mortal man, you would be a God. That is the big deal.

Death, for many under extreme torture, is the easy bit - death is the release. It is the suffering He took on that is the point.

We can not know how difficult that suffering was for a God man made - an innocent whose nature is anathema to the evils of this world,
a nature that perhaps could never be inured to them (as ours can be) opting to take on such suffering and humiliation at the hands of his
creations. We get a hint of the level of suffering - the knowledge of it created such fear and inner turmoil that he sweated blood and begged His Father to take it from him. We are fortunate (thank God), as humans, to have ignorance of the suffering that awaits us in life.

A God who opted to share in human suffering is a God who showed solidarity with our human condition - a God of compassion
(compassion literally means "to suffer with"). His resurrection means we know he is still there to share in our sufferings today, as many driven to prayer in times of suffering attest.

A God opting to take, not death, but suffering and humiliation, for lesser beings ... has meaning. Dying for a cat does not. A cat is an animal. The cat can't understand sacrifice, or reciprocate it.

If, however, we can not look on God's sacrifice for us, his suffering, without compassion for it, then we are as uncompassionate as the cat, existing only to seek our comfort.

MrPudding wrote: »

I would suffer the most horrific torture and death imaginable, without hesitation, to spare that end for those I love

Then you share something with God.

solodeogloria

Good evening all,

MrPudding - did you see my thoughts in this post?

Much thanks in the Lord!
solodeogloria

solodeogloria

Good evening all!

I know I've quoted a lot of Ephesians on this thread at the moment. We're going through it with a group of young guys at church and it's been really encouraging both to see how it's encouraging them to grow as Christians, but also in what I'm learning from it again.

In Ephesians 3 we see Paul pray for the church and the believers in Jesus so that they might make the manifold wisdom of God (that all things are united in Christ) to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. It is strange to think that God would make His glory known through His church but He graciously does. Here's Paul's prayer:

Ephesians 3:14-21 ESVUK wrote:

For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.

How does seeing how Paul prays for the church in Ephesus change how we see prayer for ourselves and for others?
How can you be praying in this way this week?

Much thanks in our Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria