CCTV cameras in polling stations.

SafeSurfer

If our election is by secret ballot, an important tenet of our democracy. Why are CCTV cameras allowed both inside and outside polling booths?

looksee

There is a world of difference between 'inside a polling station' and 'inside a polling booth'. Most polling stations are inside schools, there are not usually cameras in classrooms?

Sonics2k

SafeSurfer wrote: »

If our election is by secret ballot, an important tenet of our democracy. Why are CCTV cameras allowed both inside and outside polling booths?

The actual vote is secret, as in they do not record who is actually voting for who. Having cameras in the main room is really just for security.

Duiske

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Why are CCTV cameras allowed both inside and outside polling booths?

In North Korea its just the way these things are done. In Ireland, it doesn't happen.

SafeSurfer

Duiske wrote: »

In North Korea its just the way these things are done. In Ireland, it doesn't happen.

If you dont believe me have a look on Friday. I vote in my local school and there are CCTV cameras both inside and outside the school, including in the room where voting actually takes place.

Rubberchikken

we vote in our local school. in a classroom. doubt there is cctv in a classroom. well, hope not anyway:0 will check friday.

Gatling

SafeSurfer wrote: »

If you dont believe me have a look on Friday. I vote in my local school and there are CCTV cameras both inside and outside the school, including in the room where voting actually takes place.

Nothing unusual for a school

kneemos

SafeSurfer wrote: »

If you dont believe me have a look on Friday. I vote in my local school and there are CCTV cameras both inside and outside the school, including in the room where voting actually takes place.

Who do you think is watching and what is the consequence for voting incorrectly.

The Backwards Man

I was in the bank today and there were cameras everywhere. So disgusted was I that I went back out the door and threw my money in the bin

maudgonner

The Backwards Man wrote: »

I was in the bank today and there were cameras everywhere. So disgusted was I that I went back out the door and threw my money in the bin

Which branch?

You know, just so that I can avoid it myself...;)

Badly Drunk Boy

SafeSurfer wrote: »

If you dont believe me have a look on Friday. I vote in my local school and there are CCTV cameras both inside and outside the school, including in the room where voting actually takes place.

There aren't any CCTV cameras in classrooms. The schools wouldn't (or shouldn't) be able to afford them.

Anyway, looking at your posting history, it's obvious who you're going to vote for...so why does it bother you so much?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

SafeSurfer wrote: »

If you dont believe me have a look on Friday. I vote in my local school and there are CCTV cameras both inside and outside the school, including in the room where voting actually takes place.

But they're not in the polling booths!

tabby aspreme

I imagine cctv would be a nuisance for someone planning voter impersonation , or trying to vote early and often

SafeSurfer

Badly Drunk Boy wrote: »

There aren't any CCTV cameras in classrooms. The schools wouldn't (or shouldn't) be able to afford them.

Anyway, looking at your posting history, it's obvious who you're going to vote for...so why does it bother you so much?

Its obvious who I am going to vote for? Tell me then, who am I going to vote for?
It doesn't bother me. But lazy indifference to the erosion of democratic principles does bother me. I remember when a Garda was on duty all day at polling stations. Why? Because there was a threat to our democracy and we took our democracy seriously.
The secret ballot is compromised by CCTV cameras in the same room where citizens vote.

SafeSurfer

Everly Loose Silverfish wrote: »

But they're not in the polling booths!

In the room where I voted in the Marriage equality referendum the polling booth was in the corner of the room. There was no curtain on the booth and in the corner above the booth, facing the open booth was a CCTV camera.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Its obvious who I am going to vote for? Tell me then, who am I going to vote for?
It doesn't bother me. But lazy indifference to the erosion of democratic principles does bother me. I remember when a Garda was on duty all day at polling stations. Why? Because there was a threat to our democracy and we took our democracy seriously.
The secret ballot is compromised by CCTV cameras in the same room where citizens vote.

Who votes is not secret. Who they vote for is. What danger is there to your secret vote when there are no cameras in the booths? You keep, conveniently, ignoring this fact.

maudgonner

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The secret ballot is compromised by CCTV cameras in the same room where citizens vote.

How? Unless the cameras are pointed directly at the ballot sheet as you mark it, all they will do is record who has voted, not how they voted? That doesn't compromise the secret ballot.

The Backwards Man

Enda wasn't far wrong about the whingeing.

SafeSurfer

Everly Loose Silverfish wrote: »

Who votes is not secret. Who they vote for is. What danger is there to your secret vote when there are no cameras in the booths? You keep, conveniently, ignoring this fact.

The CCTV camera overlooks the booth. My voting preference is observable.

maudgonner wrote: »

How? Unless the cameras are pointed directly at the ballot sheet as you mark it, all they will do is record who has voted, not how they voted? That doesn't compromise the secret ballot.

The ballot sheet and my marks on it can be observed by the CCTV camera in the corner over the booth. It has the capability of recording both both if I voted or not and who I voted for.

The Backwards Man

Can you not pretend you're back at school and put your arm over it so nobody copy's you?

SafeSurfer

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Enda wasn't far wrong about the whingeing.

They will be whinging about spelling standards next.

maudgonner

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The CCTV camera overlooks the booth. My voting preference is observable.



The ballot sheet and my marks on it can be observed by the CCTV camera in the corner over the booth. It has the capability of recording both both if I voted or not and who I voted for.

This story seems to be growing legs, rather conveniently.

If that is the case then why not complain to the returning officer for your district instead of posting on an internet forum about it?

Bio Mech

SafeSurfer wrote: »

In the room where I voted in the Marriage equality referendum the polling booth was in the corner of the room. There was no curtain on the booth and in the corner above the booth, facing the open booth was a CCTV camera.

If only humans weren't transparent and could use their opaque bodies to block things. Oh well.

The Backwards Man

SafeSurfer wrote: »

They will be whinging about spelling standards next.

I learned to spell from the dictionary, not from the internet

Hoagy

SafeSurfer wrote: »

If you dont believe me have a look on Friday. I vote in my local school and there are CCTV cameras both inside and outside the school, including in the room where voting actually takes place.

Well there shouldn't be.

http://www.dataprotectionschools.ie/en/Data-Protection-Guidelines/CCTV/Use-of-CCTV-Systems-in-Schools/

Generally the Department will fund one outdoor camera and one indoor camera to monitor the front entrance. The school may choose to fund more outdoor cameras themselves if they wish, but any other internal cameras will most probably fall foul of data protection law.

kneemos

Everly Loose Silverfish wrote: »

Who votes is not secret. Who they vote for is. What danger is there to your secret vote when there are no cameras in the booths? You keep, conveniently, ignoring this fact.

They already have a list of who voted on the register.
What happens to this as a matter of interest?

maudgonner

Bio Mech wrote: »

If only humans weren't transparent and could use their opaque bodies to block things. Oh well.

Ah you see there were strategically placed mirrors on the side of the booth, the floor and the ceiling that bounced the image directly into the cameras lens. Did the OP not mention that?


(May have been a sneaky upskirt shot included too)

Dohnjoe

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The secret ballot is compromised by CCTV cameras in the same room where citizens vote.

No it's not. It's been explained to you several times why there are CCTV cameras. They are not in the booths.

whiskeyman

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The ballot sheet and my marks on it can be observed by the CCTV camera in the corner over the booth. It has the capability of recording both both if I voted or not and who I voted for.

I always find it interesting that such a vast high-tech network of cameras / ID software / staff / IT solutions etc... is funded and operated, yet we still have long waits in hospitals / poor public services etc...



Time we demanded a cut in the surveillance budget...

SafeSurfer

Dohnjoe wrote: »

No it's not. It's been explained to you several times why there are CCTV cameras. They are not in the booths.

Is it inconceivable that a camera located 6 feet from a ballot paper could observe how that ballot has been filled? And could also identify the person who has marked that ballot. Therefore voter anonymity and the secret ballot is compromised. The room in which I vote is not a classroom but a GP/PE room.
Just because the department of education only funds one cameras does not mean a school cannot fund more than one CCTV camera itself.

MarkR

I was in a school voting last time, and if I remember rightly, they had windows. And a skylight. Anyone could poke their nose up to the window, or perhaps climb the roof, and with the proper software, could perhaps extrapolate that I picked my nose and wiped it on the pencil in the voting booth.

seamus

There was a challenge to the result of the equality referendum on the basis that CCTV could theoretically be used to match incoming voters to the vote they cast.

The challenge was dismissed on the basis that it couldn't be proven how this would work in practicality.

Likewise unless there is a CCTV camera pointing directly down in the booth (in which case you should make a complaint locally at the station), it is not practically possible to compromise the secrecy of the ballot.

MarkR

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Is it inconceivable that a camera located 6 feet from a ballot paper could observe how that ballot has been filled? And could also identify the person who has marked that ballot. Therefore voter anonymity and the secret ballot is compromised. The room in which I vote is not a classroom but a GP/PE room.
Just because the department of education only funds one cameras does not mean a school cannot fund more than one CCTV camera itself.

Enough nonsense. This is what a voting booth looks like.

http://www.northernsound.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/POLLINGBOOTHS.jpg

Unless the camera is positioned directly over your head, or you are invisible, and light can pass through you, explain how a camera can see what you are filling in?

maudgonner

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Is it inconceivable that a camera located 6 feet from a ballot paper could observe how that ballot has been filled? And could also identify the person who has marked that ballot. Therefore voter anonymity and the secret ballot is compromised. The room in which I vote is not a classroom but a GP/PE room.
Just because the department of education only funds one cameras does not mean a school cannot fund more than one CCTV camera itself.

Not inconceivable, but also not likely.

There's a reason that polling booths are built with three sides - the body of the voter acts as the fourth wall. Unless the camera is directly above and pointing down at the ballot paper then it is very unlikely that the voting preference will be visible.

Gatling

A Colinder and some tin foil might be worth investing in

SafeSurfer

MarkR wrote: »

Enough nonsense. This is what a voting booth looks like.

http://www.northernsound.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/POLLINGBOOTHS.jpg

Unless the camera is positioned directly over your head, or you are invisible, and light can pass through you, explain how a camera can see what you are filling in?

You are right. That is what a voting booth looks like. This is not what all voting booth look like. As I have said before the camera is in the corner directly above and behind the booth.
Are camera phones allowed in polling booths? No.
Why should CCTV be any different?

Hercule Poirot

Gatling wrote: »

A Colinder and some tin foil might be worth investing in

But they have CCTV in the shops now, they'll see you buying these things, conclude you are a danger to the government/Illuminati conspiracy and watch you like a hawk, your every move will documented and they will send subliminal messages through your TV screen or radio to influence your vote

The CCTV in the polling station is just to check that it worked

SafeSurfer

maudgonner wrote: »

Not inconceivable, but also not likely.

There's a reason that polling booths are built with three sides - the body of the voter acts as the fourth wall. Unless the camera is directly above and pointing down at the ballot paper then it is very unlikely that the voting preference will be visible.

Unlikely? Voting machines were scrapped at the cost of tens of millions because of fears of just such an "unlikely" occurrence compromising our voting process.

murpho999

SafeSurfer wrote: »

If our election is by secret ballot, an important tenet of our democracy. Why are CCTV cameras allowed both inside and outside polling booths?

Secret ballot means that we don't know who voted for what when the votes are counted, not that we do not know who voted.

Ridiculous post, CCTV is there for the security not to record what people voted.

Maybe you could go in disguise.

SafeSurfer

kneemos wrote: »

They already have a list of who voted on the register.
What happens to this as a matter of interest?

Election candidates can view who has and has not voted after the election. So when that candidate that you promised your no.1 to snubs you the next time you meet, you will know why.

murpho999

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Unlikely? Voting machines were scrapped at the cost of tens of millions because of fears of just such an "unlikely" occurrence compromising our voting process.

No, they weren't they were found to be flawed due to accountability as the lack of verifiability by the absence of an audit mechanism or verified paper trail.

It was nothing to do with identifying who voted what.

Hercule Poirot

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Election candidates can view who has and has not voted after the election. So when that candidate that you promised your no.1 to snubs you the next time you meet, you will know why.

Oh dear, being caught out telling a lie to a politician, such a shame

07Lapierre

maudgonner wrote: »

Which branch?

You know, just so that I can avoid it myself...;)

Baseball cap and scarf....

seamus

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Unlikely? Voting machines were scrapped at the cost of tens of millions because of fears of just such an "unlikely" occurrence compromising our voting process.

Voting machines are many orders of magnitude easier to compromise than 13 hours of grainy CCTV footage recording polling booths that aren't even the main focus of the shot.

ghostdancer

SafeSurfer wrote: »

If you dont believe me have a look on Friday. I vote in my local school and there are CCTV cameras both inside and outside the school, including in the room where voting actually takes place.

i'm currently in the room that i'll be voting in on Friday.
there are no CCTV cameras.

your issue is with the school. take it up with their Board of Directors, Church, Dept. of Education, or whoever is responsible for running the place.

murpho999

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Election candidates can view who has and has not voted after the election. So when that candidate that you promised your no.1 to snubs you the next time you meet, you will know why.

No, all they will know is that you voted and not what you voted.

Who would care what a politician thinks anyway?

maudgonner

I can hardly wait until the OP finds out about exit polls...

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The CCTV camera overlooks the booth. My voting preference is observable.



The ballot sheet and my marks on it can be observed by the CCTV camera in the corner over the booth. It has the capability of recording both both if I voted or not and who I voted for.

I call Bull on that.

SafeSurfer

ghostdancer wrote: »

i'm currently in the room that i'll be voting in on Friday.
there are no CCTV cameras.

your issue is with the school. take it up with their Board of Directors, Church, Dept. of Education, or whoever is responsible for running the place.

Get off Boards and teach the kids!

RainyDay

SafeSurfer wrote: »

If you dont believe me have a look on Friday. I vote in my local school and there are CCTV cameras both inside and outside the school, including in the room where voting actually takes place.

Please identify the school / polling station?

kneemos wrote: »

They already have a list of who voted on the register.
What happens to this as a matter of interest?

A scanned copy of the marked register will go to candidates afterwards. Pretty difficult to make any significant use of it.

SafeSurfer

murpho999 wrote: »

No, all they will know is that you voted and not what you voted.

Who would care what a politician thinks anyway?

Do you not think people can be intimidated to vote. That people can face consequences for not voting for certain parties? Why should politicians be able to verify if I voted or not?