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Ireland and Schengen (EU)

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭dissed doc


    Switzerland is part of Schengen. UK and Ireland are not.

    Seeing as Ireland is not part of Schengen, we can have our own border with the UK, which funnily enough already existed.

    Again, Schengen as a border never had a role. If Ireland suddenly joined Schengen and the UK didn't it would be an issue.

    As it stands it seems quite obvious that the UK like Switzerland could be part of Schengen and not be in the EU.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    dissed doc wrote: »
    Schengen is gone, how many times does it have to be said. There are border controls right now between Belgium and Netherlands.

    The Ni border is tge business of UK and Ireland. The simplest solution would be a customs and passport union of RoI and NI. Anyone without a UK or IE passport needs to be border checked anyway right now in theory.

    And Schengen, for the umpteenth time, is gone. And even when it was still around, neither UK or RoI were part of it. The laws of Schengen have ni application to UK or RoI inside or outside the EU.
    IMO Schengen is irrelevant. Border controls do not hamper free movement as a pillar of the EU - so what if you have to show your passport, it's about not restricting the movement.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,803 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    In principle, it would seem both the EU and UK want to retain the Common Travel Area, but if negotiations break down, should we then opt-in to Schengen?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,675 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    In principle, it would seem both the EU and UK want to retain the Common Travel Area, but if negotiations break down, should we then opt-in to Schengen?

    EU cannot force us out of CTA as it pre dates the EU.

    We should not opt into Schengen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,165 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    EU cannot force us out of CTA as it pre dates the EU.

    We should not opt into Schengen.
    The fact that the CTA predates our membership of the EU is irrelevant. Lots of laws and administrative arrangements that predate EU membership have had to give way to the requirements of EU membership.

    I don't think the EU would want to force us into Schegnen. If the CTA breaks down, the EU will still be sympathetic to Ireland's need to minimise the impact of the Irish border.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,675 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    The fact that the CTA predates our membership of the EU is irrelevant. Lots of laws and administrative arrangements that predate EU membership have had to give way to the requirements of EU membership.

    I don't think the EU would want to force us into Schegnen. If the CTA breaks down, the EU will still be sympathetic to Ireland's need to minimise the impact of the Irish border.

    They EU cannot stop CTA in any way!

    They also more less admitted today they do not want a hard border either.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,165 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    They don't want a hard border. And in particular they don't want to stop the CTA (which, NB, relates to the movement of people, not goods). But they could certainly take a stand which leads to the end of the CTA.

    The potential problem with the CTA is this: Anyone in the Republic can cross the border into NI, and can travel from NI to GB. So the CTA isn't a right for Irish people to enter the UK; it's in effect a right for anyone in Ireland to enter the UK. And since EU citizens have a right to enter Ireland, that means that as long as the CTA is maintained any EU citizen can enter the UK, via Ireland. Which kind of blows a hole in the whose Brexit-take-back-control-keep-out-the-Slavic-hordes thing.

    So, we may get to a point where the UK says "Ireland, we'll continue to operate the CTA as it currently stands if you agree to police your own borders, and only admit people to Ireland who would also be entitled to enter the UK". But if we were minded to do any such thing (which, NB, is pretty much what we currently do) the EU would say "Nah, not gonna happen. Ireland has to admit all EU nationals, regardless of whether they have a right of entry to the UK". Which would mean that the UK would either drop the CTA altogether or (more probably) change the way it works so that there's be immigration control at the border, and only Irish citizens and third country citizens with a right of entry to the UK would be allowed in.


  • Registered Users Posts: 71,799 ✭✭✭✭Ted_YNWA


    It would either be the above controls at the RoI/NI border, or leave it complete free movement on the island and have the passport control on the UK mainland.

    That would royally phiss the loyalists off.

    That is if they want to maintain control on who can come in.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,165 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Ted_YNWA wrote: »
    It would either be the above controls at the RoI/NI border, or leave it complete free movement on the island and have the passport control on the UK mainland.

    That would royally phiss the loyalists off.
    Which is one of the reasons why it will never happen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 71,799 ✭✭✭✭Ted_YNWA


    Peregrinus wrote:
    Which is one of the reasons why it will never happen.

    Exactly, there is no win option in this for May & co.

    Movement of people is a key tenet of EU. Unlikely for EU to back down.

    May will have to concede and let EU free entry which will not please their public.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,165 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Ted_YNWA wrote: »
    Exactly, there is no win option in this for May & co.

    Movement of people is a key tenet of EU. Unlikely for EU to back down.

    May will have to concede and let EU free entry which will not please their public.
    Or, she'll have to limit the CTA. Which, if pushed, is the choice she will make.


  • Registered Users Posts: 71,799 ✭✭✭✭Ted_YNWA


    Peregrinus wrote:
    Or, she'll have to limit the CTA. Which, if pushed, is the choice she will make.

    Yep, which would inconvenience the border counties on both sides with commuters going both ways.

    This is only one issue, myriad more. Going to be a bumpy and interesting 2 years+.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    They EU cannot stop CTA in any way!

    They also more less admitted today they do not want a hard border either.
    Source very much required.

    If the UK leaves the EU fully as it is now stated by the PM, the border between Ireland and the UK will be an external EU border and thus the decision on how that is treated is a matter for the EU and not Ireland.

    Protocol 20 TFEU makes allowance for the CTA - by leaving the EU, the UK is no longer party to this, so it is entirely foreign as to how the CTA will work between two countries in/out of the EU.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,422 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Peregrinus wrote: »

    The potential problem with the CTA is this: Anyone in the Republic can cross the border into NI, and can travel from NI to GB. So the CTA isn't a right for Irish people to enter the UK; it's in effect a right for anyone in Ireland to enter the UK. And since EU citizens have a right to enter Ireland, that means that as long as the CTA is maintained any EU citizen can enter the UK, via Ireland. Which kind of blows a hole in the whose Brexit-take-back-control-keep-out-the-Slavic-hordes thing.

    This is not correct.

    Some people have a right to reside in Ireland but would have no right to reside/visit the UK and would require a separate visa to visit. Now it is unlikely they would be challenged under the current arrangements, but they still have no right to visit the UK, and would be deported if discovered.

    It applies to some foreign students among others.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,638 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    This is not correct.

    Some people have a right to reside in Ireland but would have no right to reside/visit the UK and would require a separate visa to visit. Now it is unlikely they would be challenged under the current arrangements, but they still have no right to visit the UK, and would be deported if discovered.

    It applies to some foreign students among others.
    'In effect' is the key part I guess. But even if someone was deported they could still be back in the UK within 24 hours right?


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,422 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    'In effect' is the key part I guess. But even if someone was deported they could still be back in the UK within 24 hours right?

    We can all break the law, can't we? Not sure I'd advise anyone to do so.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,638 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    We can all break the law, can't we? Not sure I'd advise anyone to do so.

    Not advising, but just wondering, since deportation is no punishment if all you need to do to get back to where you were is a plane ticket, a train ticket and a ferry ticket. More like a mild inconvenience.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,422 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Not advising, but just wondering, since deportation is no punishment if all you need to do to get back to where you were is a plane ticket, a train ticket and a ferry ticket. More like a mild inconvenience.

    I think they have a very hostile attitude to terrorists in the UK. I certainly would not risk being in their cross hairs at any time. Being deported certainly brings you to notice, and not in a good way.

    I was a on a ferry/bus from Dublin to London about 5 years ago, and in Holyhead, a woman whose appearance suggested she was a young East African (Ethiopian at a guess) was hauled off the bus by immigration and did not come back - bus left without her. No idea why, but there you go.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,638 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    I think they have a very hostile attitude to terrorists in the UK. I certainly would not risk being in their cross hairs at any time. Being deported certainly brings you to notice, and not in a good way.

    I was a on a ferry/bus from Dublin to London about 5 years ago, and in Holyhead, a woman whose appearance suggested she was a young East African (Ethiopian at a guess) was hauled off the bus by immigration and did not come back - bus left without her. No idea why, but there you go.

    I think we've crossed some wires here, I was thinking more to the future and the reality of the CTA in a post-Brexit UK, and the deportation of illegal EU nationals from the UK. Sorry if I took you up wrong


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Ted_YNWA wrote: »
    May will have to concede and let EU free entry which will not please their public.

    I think your misinterpreting a lot of the Brexit motivations, people don't care about europeans visiting, some of them cared about Eastern Europeans working and being directly recruited to the UK, these are two very different things.

    I don't think granting visa free travel to EU citizens for say 90 days would be at all controversial in the UK and CTA remaining is popular

    In relation to the border controls thing, I think they will push the more rigorous checks to the journey from Northern Ireland to Britain, thats not actually problematic at all as you already need some ID to travel their anyway unless you have your own boat! (I am sure people will try portray it as a controversial issue but it really isn't).

    In terms of the border controls thing, Sam Russell is right to highlight that it already exists to an extent in that the cross border busses do get pulled of them occasionally.

    The real issue here is the customs


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  • Registered Users Posts: 71,799 ✭✭✭✭Ted_YNWA


    I think your misinterpreting a lot of the Brexit motivations, people don't care about europeans visiting, some of them cared about Eastern Europeans working and being directly recruited to the UK, these are two very different things.

    All of the non-EU migration was directly under their control to start with. They never really acted on it.

    Leaving the EU to bring this into practise, while allowing EU27 ,citizens continued access just seems cracked.'


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,165 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    There are likely to be no signficant additional controls on non-EU migration into the UK, if only because, if the British wanted such controls, they would already have them. They don't have to throw all their toys out of the pram, EU-wise, in order to regulation non-EU immigration on whatever terms they wish.

    They're not likely to want to put signficant barriers in the way of tourism or business travel from the EU, or of EU citizens coming to the UK to study.

    What they are most likely to want to restrict is EU citizens coming to the UK to work. But, being an island nation, more or less, the easiest point at which to impose restrictions in practice is when people cross the border. But this presents two challenges:

    1. How to operate the borders in a way which doesn't impede tourist/business travel, but effectively prevents migration for work?

    2. How to operate the land border with Ireland?

    Neither of these problems are easily solved. They can both be avoided if, instead of relying on border controls, the UK introduces employment controls, probably by tweaking and tightening the current National Insurance system. Penalise employers who employ people without a valid national insurance number (and police and enforce the penalties effectively), and adjust the national insurance number system so that it's linked with citizenship and migration records, so that NI numbers issued to people who aren't entitled to work can be flagged in some way.

    That's a huge issue, not least because the UK doesn't have a citizenship database. For the future, the issue of a national insurance number can involve a process which established your citizenship and your immigration status, but for the tens of millions of NI numbers already in issue, it's too late for that. And, because there is no citizenship database, they can't be checked retrospectively.

    Plus, a system based on NI numbers or similar won't do much to regulate employment in the black economy, where NI numbers aren't use (or fake numbers are used).


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,422 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The whole process for immigration control will have to shift to a system of ID cards for residents, and passports for non-residents.

    To get an ID card, the resident will have to prove entitlement which will be equivalent to applying for a passport - that is birth cert, etc.

    Now, unfortunately, the UK has a very large number of illegal immigrants which obviously come mostly from outside the EU since immigration from the EU is generally legal. This is a political nightmare for May since she was the Home Secretary that failed spectacularly to control immigration.

    Now, the knock on for Ireland is that we will have to go down the same road of issuing ID cards - well did we not introduce the credit card Passport, so that would do the job nicely. Alternatively, the driving licence will do nicely as well, which we now have a secure DL with photo and address.

    There is a very comprehensive database for NI numbers in the UK, so that can be used for a basis for immigration/citizenship control. It carries work history from the beginning of time (well birth) for most people with a NI number.

    It is through employment regulation that the UK will be able to control immigration.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Ted_YNWA wrote: »
    I think your misinterpreting a lot of the Brexit motivations, people don't care about europeans visiting, some of them cared about Eastern Europeans working and being directly recruited to the UK, these are two very different things.

    All of the non-EU migration was directly under their control to start with. They never really acted on it.

    Leaving the EU to bring this into practise, while allowing EU27 ,citizens continued access just seems cracked.'

    ? I am talking about allowing visa free travel for X period for EU citizens similar to lots of other countries have it's not to do with employment.

    Similar to other posters have said the answer lies with enforcing employment checks and fining employers, I would guess this would be easier to ramp than people think if there is a political will.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,165 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The whole process for immigration control will have to shift to a system of ID cards for residents, and passports for non-residents.

    To get an ID card, the resident will have to prove entitlement which will be equivalent to applying for a passport - that is birth cert, etc.

    Now, unfortunately, the UK has a very large number of illegal immigrants which obviously come mostly from outside the EU since immigration from the EU is generally legal. This is a political nightmare for May since she was the Home Secretary that failed spectacularly to control immigration.
    If the UK had wanted to do any of these things in the past, they could have done them at any time. They wouldn't have to leave the EU to introduce ID cards. I think the reason they didn't is a view that the British public wouldn't stomach it, and I don't see Brexit chaning that.
    Now, the knock on for Ireland is that we will have to go down the same road of issuing ID cards . . .
    Ain't gonna happen. Nor can I see that the maintenance of the CTA requires it. If the British really do want to introduce an ID card system, with a requirement that you produce your ID card in order to take up employment, well, Irish people travelling to the UK can apply for a UK identity card just like everyone else in the UK (including British citizens, presumably).


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,422 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    If the UK had wanted to do any of these things in the past, they could have done them at any time. They wouldn't have to leave the EU to introduce ID cards. I think the reason they didn't is a view that the British public wouldn't stomach it, and I don't see Brexit chaning that.

    They did not need to leave the EU for any reason that makes any sense. Also, many leave-ists did not necessarily buy the immigration idea.

    Ain't gonna happen. Nor can I see that the maintenance of the CTA requires it. If the British really do want to introduce an ID card system, with a requirement that you produce your ID card in order to take up employment, well, Irish people travelling to the UK can apply for a UK identity card just like everyone else in the UK (including British citizens, presumably).

    Well, an Irish person (citizen) need only show their passport to get a NI number. An Irish resident (non-citizen) would require an ID card, I would suspect, to get a NI number, but who knows? The monkeys have taken over the zoo.

    With Micheal Howerd, ex Tory Leader (who disappeared without trace), suggested that the UK would go to war with Spain over Gibraltar, then I think any madcap idea will be given undue consideration.


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