Is Solar P.V worth installing . New Build ?

0e1

Hi will I be able to run all my electrical appliances from a solar installation ? Is Tesla wall a good idea ? Night rates etc ? I'm building a 3000sq/ft two story . Plan on installing Oil and 3stoves . I have Solar thermal in my current home and Is great in summer but nothing in winter . Will solar PV benefit me more or just the same when heating water in the winter ?
What is the current pay back ?
How big an array do people generally install ? Any info welcome , thanks

newacc2015

0e1 wrote: »

Hi will I be able to run all my electrical appliances from a solar installation ? Is Tesla wall a good idea ? Night rates etc ? I'm building a 3000sq/ft two story . Plan on installing Oil and 3stoves . I have Solar thermal in my current home and Is great in summer but nothing in winter . Will solar PV benefit me more or just the same when heating water in the winter ?
What is the current pay back ?
How big an array do people generally install ? Any info welcome , thanks

The Tesla is not commonly available yet. It is barely in production. They have to wait for their new plant in Nevada to open for mass production.

You might be better with a heat pump. It would be more effective for its cost.

0e1

I don't want underfloor heating . Have it in current home ,doesn't suit me .Prefer rads personally .Heat pump ..initial cost /brakes down big bucks .Oil cheap n cheerful .
Does anyone have PV installed in their homes currently ?

quentingargan

I've a 1.8Kw system. If you PM me I can send you a link to show daily performance, but that doesn't answer your question about payback.

Depending on when you build your house, it is broadly expected that there will be some sort of payment for surplus electricity exported to the grid, or maybe a production tariff.

The payback on a PV system will depend on that because you won't be able to use all the power from it yourself all the time. So if a 2kw system was to produce its typical 1850KwHrs/year, and you used all the power, the payback at the 18c cost of electricity would be €333 per year. But if you use 1/3rd of it and get paid 12c for the other 2/3rds, your payback would be €259. At present, with no export tariff it is €111.

I currently get paid 9c under an old scheme that was since disbanded by Electric Ireland.

rolion

@0e1

I'm building at the moment a 6Kw system, based in Dublin.
21 LG 300w panels, tracking , 6KW inverter and so on.
AMA and I can assist your unknown but i'm not making for a financial viable return plan.

Payback and financials...not really.
I want to feel that when I switch on "the switch" is coming from my garden and from God Sun.
Same like now, just a free shower with a 50" hot water from same God.

I have UFH and I find it really great. Or at least my feet feels it like that.

My friendly advice is to take your time, drop the attitude and read all the threads in this forum section.
PVs and solar are not for people that wants a quick buck paid back ... is the feeling more than anything else, guess.

Have fun !

freddyuk

0e1 wrote: »

Hi will I be able to run all my electrical appliances from a solar installation ? Is Tesla wall a good idea ? Night rates etc ? I'm building a 3000sq/ft two story . Plan on installing Oil and 3stoves . I have Solar thermal in my current home and Is great in summer but nothing in winter . Will solar PV benefit me more or just the same when heating water in the winter ?
What is the current pay back ?
How big an array do people generally install ? Any info welcome , thanks

If you are even considering Tesla then also consider AHI Salt water batteries.
They are completely non toxic and require zero maintenance so ideal for domestic environments. Lithium is still a potentially dangerous product to have in your house.

0e1

@Rolion
What attitude? Simply gathering info from those in the know ,sorry if I didn't write an essay .

Thanks people , the Tesla wall is just an idea for the future really , be great to charge the electric van every night .
Been installing Solar Thermal myself for years so weighing up the temptation of trying something new PV vs the old cheap reliable I could do myself myself

air

You'd be able to do the vast majority of a PV install yourself, far easier than a solar thermal install.

Conor20

air wrote: »

You'd be able to do the vast majority of a PV install yourself, far easier than a solar thermal install.

I've been interested in doing this for a while - a small DIY solar project (three 250watt panels + inverter with no storage). I read online that in a simple setup, it's possible to run the panels through an inverter and simply plug the output of the inverter into a socket in the house such that the PV first meets any demand in the house before flowing back to the grid. Is it actually this simple? (I understand that the inverter needs to be certified, capable of matching the grid's sinusoid, and shut off supply from the PV if the grid goes down).

quentingargan

Conor20 wrote: »

I've been interested in doing this for a while - a small DIY solar project (three 250watt panels + inverter with no storage). I read online that in a simple setup, it's possible to run the panels through an inverter and simply plug the output of the inverter into a socket in the house such that the PV first meets any demand in the house before flowing back to the grid. Is it actually this simple? (I understand that the inverter needs to be certified, capable of matching the grid's sinusoid, and shut off supply from the PV if the grid goes down).

There were companies selling inverters that they recommended plugging into a socket, but the correct practice is to give it a dedicated MCB rated to the size of inverter.

With good reason - if you have a 2kw inverter pushing 8 amps into a socket circuit, a fault on that circuit would now require 28A instead of 20A to trip the 20A MCB. Likewise, the inverter should be protected at 10A rather than 20. Indeed if there was a load on that circuit, the inverter isn't protected at all.

You also need a few other bits and pieces - DC isolator, AC isolator and stickers on your incoming supply to notify authorities that there is a system in place. The electrical side of the installation should be signed off on by a registered electrician. But all that side is not a lot of work for a competent spark.

air

Quentin is spot on there although i'd disagree slightly on the analysis, it's not good or allowed practice to wire an inverter to a socket.

The vast majority of the work in a PV install is related to installing the roof hooks, rails and panels.
You would also be able to run the DC cable and mount the inverter (physically) yourself.
If you leave the solar panels unplugged from the DC extension cable the above is very safe for you to carry out DIY and the remainder would be less than an hour or two's work for an electrician if you can locate the inverter near your main distribution board.

Obviously you need to bear in mind safety when working at height on your roof etc, I'm taking scaffolding and a safe system of work as a given here.

Just to add, not many inverters will run on just 3 panels, most would require a minimum of 4 or 5 panels to start the inverter.

quentingargan

Totally agree with air. Yes - never wire an inverter to a socket. I just remember that there was an inverter in popular use a few years ago that did this, and came supplied with a three-pin plug but its really bad practice for a number of reasons!

ted1

0e1 wrote: »

Hi will I be able to run all my electrical appliances from a solar installation ? Is Tesla wall a good idea ? Night rates etc ? I'm building a 3000sq/ft two story . Plan on installing Oil and 3stoves . I have Solar thermal in my current home and Is great in summer but nothing in winter . Will solar PV benefit me more or just the same when heating water in the winter ?
What is the current pay back ?
How big an array do people generally install ? Any info welcome , thanks

I predict that within a year ESB will be offering subsidies for the Tesla power wall, Id make a provision for it but hold off getting it. It'll save them money in Feed in tariffs

air

I'll believe it when I see it, they don't even pay new customers for PV feed in at present.
Power wall or similar is a far more expensive proposition and is fairly low powered per customer, there would be a lot of cost per installation in terms of metering, installation, sales etc.
If they want battery based load shifting then installing fewer large installations makes more sense at this point in time, far greater economies of scale.

ted1

air wrote: »

I'll believe it when I see it, they don't even pay new customers for PV feed in at present.
Power wall or similar is a far more expensive proposition and is fairly low powered per customer, there would be a lot of cost per installation in terms of metering, installation, sales etc.
If they want battery based load shifting then installing fewer large installations makes more sense at this point in time, far greater economies of scale.

You must not understand how it works.
They have a mandate to encourage micro generation. PV up yo recently didn't make sense. They don't really want to pay a Fed in tariff. A power wall increases the usefullness. This allows them to cliam back carbon credit, they get paid for each kWh they can save a client.
If you look at the DSU model, currently they are paying out 70,000 per annum fit each 1MW that signs up, that's 700 euro per 10kwh each year and they get nothing from it. The power wall gives guaranteed reductions.

From working with ESB and Eirgrid they see it as a real game changer. ESB invested 15M in Tesla in 2008

air

I certainly don't understand how it works in that case.

How can they claim back a carbon credit for feeding energy back into the grid that has largely been produced using fossil fuels?

On your 70,000 per annum line, you're mixing units of power(MW) and energy (kWh) so it's hard to figure out what you'e trying to say.

And as regards "PV not making sense", are you saying they have cancelled the FIT because "PV makes sense" now?

As regards the PowerWall being a game changer, there are umpteen similar products on offer.

All very vague and confusing statements.

ted1

air wrote: »

I certainly don't understand how it works in that case.

How can they claim back a carbon credit for feeding energy back into the grid that has largely been produced using fossil fuels?

On your 70,000 per annum line, you're mixing units of power(MW) and energy (kWh) so it's hard to figure out what you'e trying to say.

And as regards "PV not making sense", are you saying they have cancelled the FIT because "PV makes sense" now?

As regards the PowerWall being a game changer, there are umpteen similar products on offer.

All very vague and confusing statements.

It should have read 700 euro for each 10kw. Look up the DSU program. While there may be similar products out there , they are not on the same playing field as the power wall. It's certain being seen as a game changer by both Eirgrid and ESB. And that's the words they are using.

Fed in Tariffs are hard to justify in the SEMO model. Why pay 15KWH when the current market rate is 3KWh.

The carbon credits work for savings. They can say that they battery stored x amounts of units and as such this saved the unit from using y amounts of energy from the grid and thus saved carbon emissions. Off hand the name of the scheme escapes me, it's one if the ways that electric Ireland are offering subsidies on energy initiatives

Look up the EEOS, the power wall could be covered under this scheme

air

OK, I'm aware of the demand side reduction programme but I still don't see the relevance of this to it.
The storage capacity of the PowerWall may be 10kWh but it's not rated for a discharge rate of 10kW I'm sure (they are very sparse on specs) and would need a serious inverter to output that level of power. In addition, ESB only allow 6kW max export power to domestic users.
For a few hundred euro per customer they could put remote demand side reduction on immersion heaters for example which would achieve a 2-3kW reduction for those in use during peak times, far more cost effective.

I don't see where the savings are for carbon credits unless they're going to have remote control over the units so that they are charged during times of peak wind and discharged during times of peak demand. Again this would require a lot more than a powerwall.

I'm genuinely interested as to why it's considered a game changer, specs are sparse and what's been released is nothing special, it's just a dumb battery.
For example LG Chem offer the the RESU 6.4EX Lithium-Ion battery for £3400 (retail) and it's rated for 10000 cycles to 80% discharge (5.1 kWh)


With regard to the Feed In Tarriffs did you mean to say 15c/kWh and 3c/kWh?
The most recent microgenerator feed in tarriff on offer was 9c/kWH which surely isn't bad value to electric Ireland for PV production, given that it will be immediately resold to one's neighbour for around 18c/kWh with no losses and they will all be daytime units.

ted1

air wrote: »

OK, I'm aware of the demand side reduction programme but I still don't see the relevance of this to it.
The storage capacity of the PowerWall may be 10kWh but it's not rated for a discharge rate of 10kW I'm sure (they are very sparse on specs) and would need a serious inverter to output that level of power. In addition, ESB only allow 6kW max export power to domestic users.
For a few hundred euro per customer they could put remote demand side reduction on immersion heaters for example which would achieve a 2-3kW reduction for those in use during peak times, far more cost effective.

I don't see where the savings are for carbon credits unless they're going to have remote control over the units so that they are charged during times of peak wind and discharged during times of peak demand. Again this would require a lot more than a powerwall.

I'm genuinely interested as to why it's considered a game changer, specs are sparse and what's been released is nothing special, it's just a dumb battery.
For example LG Chem offer the the RESU 6.4EX Lithium-Ion battery for £3400 (retail) and it's rated for 10000 cycles to 80% discharge (5.1 kWh)


With regard to the Feed In Tarriffs did you mean to say 15c/kWh and 3c/kWh?
The most recent microgenerator feed in tarriff on offer was 9c/kWH which surely isn't bad value to electric Ireland for PV production, given that it will be immediately resold to one's neighbour for around 18c/kWh with no losses and they will all be daytime units.

The ESB buy electricity for 3C , 9cents/kWh is expensive you still have distribution / transmission costs etc.

It's a game changer because the existing systems don't have the same marketability as the power wall. Other companies had MP3 players before the IPod , but the iPod was the game changer

Let's watch this space ..

Selling to a neighbour? We both know that it doesn't work like that

air

Are you saying that the wholesale rate is 3c/kWh at all times?

There absolutely is amost zero distribution / transmission losses between domestic PV production and it's end user unless you get to penetration levels 1000x or more what Ireland has at present whereupon it's likely that a local distribution sub will back feed at times of peak production.
So the energy is most likely sold to a neighbour, granted not necessarily to a customer of the same energy supplier that's proving the FIT.

You still haven't made any commercial case for the Powerwall or any other battery storage mechanism for the ESB.

As regards marketing, an MP3 player plays music, why are people going to want home electricity storage?
People listened to music before MP3 players.

Apart from "green appeal" (which is very limited based on PV pentration), people will install storage to load shift if there are time of use tariffs available that make that economically rewarding.

What the ESB should really be worried about (look at Australia) is people using home storage to leave the grid altogether.
Interesting that they had the reconnection fee upped to an unjustifiable €2000 approx. for reconnections over 2 years recently - acts as a major disincentive to people that might want to try it out.

ted1

air wrote: »

Are you saying that the wholesale rate is 3c/kWh at all times?

There absolutely is amost zero distribution / transmission losses between domestic PV production and it's end user unless you get to penetration levels 1000x or more what Ireland has at present whereupon it's likely that a local distribution sub will back feed at times of peak production.
So the energy is most likely sold to a neighbour, granted not necessarily to a customer of the same energy supplier that's proving the FIT.

You still haven't made any commercial case for the Powerwall or any other battery storage mechanism for the ESB.

As regards marketing, an MP3 player plays music, why are people going to want home electricity storage?
People listened to music before MP3 players.

Apart from "green appeal" (which is very limited based on PV pentration), people will install storage to load shift if there are time of use tariffs available that make that economically rewarding.

What the ESB should really be worried about (look at Australia) is people using home storage to leave the grid altogether.
Interesting that they had the reconnection fee upped to an unjustifiable €2000 approx. for reconnections over 2 years recently - acts as a major disincentive to people that might want to try it out.

Who mentioned losses, there's is transmission and distribution costs.
Wait and see.

air

OK Ted, you're providing a lot of winks and nods and references to insider info but zero actual information.

Of course there aretransmission and distribution costs associated with electricity but the local portion of the network utilised in redistributing domestic PV produced energy only relies on the portion of the network between homes, which costs a negligible amount.