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Reserve water tank in small house

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  • 18-02-2016 3:53pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 283 ✭✭


    I have been told by a plumber that you have to install a reserve water tank in a house, rather than taking your water supply to your taps direct from the mains - with the exception of the kitchen cold tap, all water hot and cold has to be fed to the reserve tank and then fed to the other taps / shower, water use appliances etc in the house.

    I am renovating a very small house with no attic, so the water pressure from the reserve tank will be very low, so water direct from the mains would provide better pressure upstairs and down.

    Can't understand the requirement for a reserve tank in an urban setting with an uninterrupted mains supply - I believe in the UK they have dispensed with this requirement. What is the situation in Ireland?


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,724 ✭✭✭Metric Tensor


    It's a requirement of the Building Regulations.

    Also if you by an urban setting you mean Dublin have a quick google regarding the water supply in the winter of 2013/2014. For a number of weeks it was essentially turned off at night. (Tremendous pressure reduction.)


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,724 ✭✭✭Metric Tensor


    Also - I forgot to add that there's nothing to stop you putting in a pumped cold water supply system that will provide the water at any pressure you want.


  • Registered Users Posts: 283 ✭✭TSQ


    Also - I forgot to add that there's nothing to stop you putting in a pumped cold water supply system that will provide the water at any pressure you want.

    Yes, I was trying to avoid a pumped system, both to avoid the cost of installing a pump, and also I feel that the more mechanical stuff you install the more can go wrong and you need to service it regularly etc, just more hassle in general. Plus, if the water supply is restricted / reduced surely your pump would be no help?

    Actually just found out that you only need to supply toilet cistern and cold taps from tank, the rest can be direct from mains connection.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,724 ✭✭✭Metric Tensor


    TSQ wrote: »
    Plus, if the water supply is restricted / reduced surely your pump would be no help?


    You'd still have water supplied from your storage tank until that ran out or the water came back on.

    Instead of having no water at all if the mains are off.

    The reason I mentioned the pump is that you said your main problem with having a tank was the pressure difference between gravity feed and mains fed.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,902 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    TSQ wrote: »
    I have been told by a plumber that you have to install a reserve water tank in a house, rather than taking your water supply to your taps direct from the mains - with the exception of the kitchen cold tap, all water hot and cold has to be fed to the reserve tank and then fed to the other taps / shower, water use appliances etc in the house.

    I am renovating a very small house with no attic, so the water pressure from the reserve tank will be very low, so water direct from the mains would provide better pressure upstairs and down.

    Can't understand the requirement for a reserve tank in an urban setting with an uninterrupted mains supply - I believe in the UK they have dispensed with this requirement. What is the situation in Ireland?

    No getting around the fact that you need a water tank. It's been required since before you and I were born.

    As above, if pressure is a problem, install a pump and if space is an issues you could use a similar system to what apartment blocks use maybe?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 436 ✭✭Chisler2


    kceire wrote: »
    No getting around the fact that you need a water tank. It's been required since before you and I were born.

    As above, if pressure is a problem, install a pump and if space is an issues you could use a similar system to what apartment blocks use maybe?

    Is a reserve tank mandatory for water from a private spring well (reliable throughout the year) which feeds through gravity without need of pumping?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,902 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Chisler2 wrote: »
    Is a reserve tank mandatory for water from a private spring well (reliable throughout the year) which feeds through gravity without need of pumping?

    I don't really come across this much in my urban setting but I'd imagine that any new dwelling will require the water tank.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,724 ✭✭✭Metric Tensor


    It's mandatory in all dwellings as far as I know.

    I've never seen a spring gravity feed an upstairs shower before. I know it's possible but I'd imagine the number of houses in Ireland in this situation is less than 5!


  • Registered Users Posts: 436 ✭✭Chisler2


    It's mandatory in all dwellings as far as I know.

    I've never seen a spring gravity feed an upstairs shower before. I know it's possible but I'd imagine the number of houses in Ireland in this situation is less than 5!

    Well perhaps now its 6! The incline is 45 degrees between cottage and site of well.....a very old stone single-story mountain farmhouse. Not all dwellings are Dublin sprawl.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,724 ✭✭✭Metric Tensor


    So do you have a storage tank at the site of the well that collects and then a pipe from there to the tank in the attic?


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,902 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Chisler2 wrote: »
    Well perhaps now its 6! The incline is 45 degrees between cottage and site of well.....a very old stone single-story mountain farmhouse. Not all dwellings are Dublin sprawl.

    Makes no difference. Our Building Regulations are nationwide, not just for us Dublin sprawlers! Sounds like you do not comply.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,724 ✭✭✭Metric Tensor


    Chisler2 wrote: »
    Well perhaps now its 6! The incline is 45 degrees between cottage and site of well.....a very old stone single-story mountain farmhouse. Not all dwellings are Dublin sprawl.

    Perhaps you're one of the five! ;-)


  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 7,485 ✭✭✭Red Alert


    Are these regulations different practice to the UK, where a lot of people are converting the house to direct mains feed? (Usually in the process of replacing the cylinder with an unvented one or a combination boiler.)

    It's worth noting that in many parts of Europe, direct mains feed is the norm.


  • Registered Users Posts: 436 ✭✭Chisler2


    kceire wrote: »
    Makes no difference. Our Building Regulations are nationwide, not just for us Dublin sprawlers! Sounds like you do not comply.

    There is a large black Upvc cylinder between the dwelling and the well.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,902 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Chisler2 wrote: »
    There is a large black Upvc cylinder between the dwelling and the well.

    So you do have water reserves?


  • Registered Users Posts: 436 ✭✭Chisler2


    kceire wrote: »
    So you do have water reserves?

    Yes apparently - so thank you I have learned something. I had not regarded the large black cylinder as a "water tank" which from experience are usually copper and located in the loft or attic and fill from mains (city) water system.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,902 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Chisler2 wrote: »
    Yes apparently - so thank you I have learned something. I had not regarded the large black cylinder as a "water tank" which from experience are usually copper and located in the loft or attic and fill from mains (city) water system.

    That's your hot water cyclinder ;)


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Also - I forgot to add that there's nothing to stop you putting in a pumped cold water supply system that will provide the water at any pressure you want.
    You could also install a cold water accumulator, this stores water at mains pressure and works without a pump, I have one and it provides great flow to the shower.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭dathi


    Red Alert wrote: »
    Are these regulations different practice to the UK, where a lot of people are converting the house to direct mains feed?
    .

    1.3 The cold water supply to the kitchen sink should
    be taken directly from the service pipe supplying
    water to the dwelling; the cold water supply to the
    bath or shower and the washbasin and to other
    appliances in the dwelling should be from a cold
    water storage cistern. The bath, shower, washbasin,
    and sink should also have a piped supply of hot
    water, which may be from a central source or from a
    unit water heater.
    thats taken from the regs


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭PMBC


    dathi wrote: »
    1.3 The cold water supply to the kitchen sink should
    be taken directly from the service pipe supplying
    water to the dwelling; the cold water supply to the
    bath or shower and the washbasin and to other
    appliances in the dwelling should be from a cold
    water storage cistern. The bath, shower, washbasin,
    and sink should also have a piped supply of hot
    water, which may be from a central source or from a
    unit water heater.
    thats taken from the regs

    Is that quotation from the Technical Guidance Document?


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,902 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    PMBC wrote: »
    Is that quotation from the Technical Guidance Document?

    The poster states it at the bottom of his post.

    "Taken from the regs"


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭PMBC


    kceire wrote: »
    The poster states it at the bottom of his post.

    "Taken from the regs"

    Saw that and so I asked the question. There are nuances in application.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭PMBC


    I should clarify that last statement. The TGDs are a sufficient but not a necessary method of compliance with Building Regulations - 'sufficient' meaning they are prima facie evidence of compliance.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭dathi


    PMBC wrote: »
    I should clarify that last statement. The TGDs are a sufficient but not a necessary method of compliance with Building Regulations - 'sufficient' meaning they are prima facie evidence of compliance.

    correct. but a better way of saying it is the TGDs are a sufficient method but not necessarily the only method of complying with building regs ,your statement "not a necessary method" implies that you dont have to do anything


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭PMBC


    It doesn't imply that; not in my understanding of the statement. But hey, maybe you like to be right


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    This conversation is a waste of time for anyone other than designers & certifers. I'm not saying this to be condescending.

    Asking a home builder to consider the 1000+ pages of Irish TGD is one thing. Asking them to traipse through and interpret the 100k pages of BS/ EN standards is another..


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭PMBC


    Mod you are right. It has gone off the topic.
    But you make an important point - are the BR fit for purpose? They should be reasonably available and comprehensible to a builder - not just to building professionals, of which I am one. The old style regs were far more prescriptive but now we wind up with '........adequate ........I dont know why they took that direction.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,724 ✭✭✭Metric Tensor


    To the lay person it is not really important but for the discussion at hand I think people should be clear when they are talking about:

    Building Regulations: Statutory Instruments i.e. The Building Control Acts 1990 and 2007.

    Technical Guidance Documents: Parts A to M published by the Dept. of the Environment. These are a guidance documents only and are not mandatory - BUT they are a prima facie way of proving that a dwelling complies with the Building Control Acts. When most lay-people refer to building regulations they usually mean the TGDs.

    Codes/Standards: Irish Standards (IS) and harmonised Euro Norms (EN) and probably also British Standards (BS). These are generally seen as agreed criteria for design/construction to ensure buildings meet a certain quality. Some of these are legally enforceable. You'd be hard pressed to find a professional designer who deliberately ignores the various codes/standards that cover their design work as that could leave them exposed.


  • Subscribers Posts: 41,378 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    PMBC wrote: »
    They should be reasonably available and comprehensible to a builder - not just to building professionals, of which I am one. The old style regs were far more prescriptive but now we wind up with '........adequate ........I dont know why they took that direction.

    They certainly are 'readily available' to builders.
    'Comprehensible' is a subjective term based, not solely, on the abilities of the builder.
    In my eyes there is no harm with having a 'building regulation' system that challanges builders abilities and therefore separates the wheat from the chaff.

    I dont know what you mean by "adequate" ... as a practitioner in the building industry since the inception of the 'regs' they have become more and more indepth and consuming. The only TGD still in existance from the 1997 version is part C


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