Approach to planning

antiskeptic · 17-02-2016 1:58pm #1

Suppose I'm seeking planning permission and I have different grades of priorities for what I want to do:

Priority 1: conversion of a two storey building, currently split horizontally into apartments into a two story, single dwelling house.

Priority 2: add 2nd floor terrace-balcony

I can't do without the first but can do without the second, which would be a bonus.

Do I submit a single application which could result in the 1st being granted permission but the 2nd refused .. or is it a case of all or nothing (with conditions attached)

In the case of the latter and for the sake of time, do I submit two separate applications at the same time. If the first is granted and the second not I can commence whereas doing the consecutively (awaiting the result of the first before submitting the second) would take too long

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Where is the line drawn between that which is germaine to the application (and can't be progressed with pre-granting of planning) and that which is not? For example (and using the above apartment > house example)

Can I rewire the house, repair the roof, switch living space from downstairs to upstairs (a layout which would be on the planning application by way of supporting the idea of a 2nd storey terrace balcony but which would go ahead even if the balcony wasn't approved ultimately) and knock internal walls. Can I commence groundworks for an extension, even if the extension is subsequently refused and I simply landscape on top of

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Do you need planning permission to alter the shape and location of windows that:

- aren't on the front facade
- are on the front facade.

It's a standalone building so no disruption to streetscape (by differing from all the neighbours) and not listed.

Thanks for advice/comments.

Gumbo · 17-02-2016 3:15pm

Go for planning for both. The LA can issue a partial grant / partial refusal of they want. You cannot lodge the 2 apps at the same time as there's different rules to second applications within a 6 month timeframe of another planning application.

Windows on the side elevation may also need planning depending on frontage etc
Best to get someone to actually view the site.

The planning process to convert back to a singe dwelling will bring you under the new regulations with regards to single dwellings, so that's renewables, BER ratings and Part M access.

antiskeptic · 17-02-2016 3:54pm

Thanks, as ever.

kceire wrote: »

Go for planning for both. The LA can issue a partial grant / partial refusal of they want. You cannot lodge the 2 apps at the same time as there's different rules to second applications within a 6 month timeframe of another planning application.

Understood. If refusing a section of the application would it be refused outright or would they suggest alteration to render that part acceptable. Is it possible to offer options as part of the initial planning (balcony option A (preferred), balcony option B if A isn't acceptable

Windows on the side elevation may also need planning depending on frontage etc Best to get someone to actually view the site.

I would indeed be invoking a planning consultant if proceeding. Just orientating myself as to the feasibility of the whole thing.

The planning process to convert back to a singe dwelling will bring you under the new regulations with regards to single dwellings, so that's renewables, BER ratings and Part M access.

The BER I would have been aware of (more from the point of doing it anyway). Didn't realise renewable or M. Could you give a thumbnail of what's involved? Is it straightforward enough to obtain the detail and have a builder met requirements with enough architect involvement to monitor and provide clearance at the end?

It'd have living area upstairs and beds downstairs in all probability.

Gumbo · 17-02-2016 4:34pm

antiskeptic wrote: »

Thanks, as ever.

No problem. But just remember, my posts are my opinion, others may disagree with what I say.

antiskeptic wrote: »

Understood. If refusing a section of the application would it be refused outright or would they suggest alteration to render that part acceptable. Is it possible to offer options as part of the initial planning (balcony option A (preferred), balcony option B if A isn't acceptable

the problem with this is how do you then prepare your public notices? The newspaper wording, the site notice wording and the application form all have to match word for word. So you cant really apply for a roof terrace, but if that doesn't work, we will do this, and if that's not possible, we will do that...if you get me.

Roof terraces are generally hard to get planning for in Dublin depending on adjacent sites, over looking etc

In my opinion, it would be best to go for a pre planning consultation with your drawings before you pay for public notices and application fees.

antiskeptic wrote: »

The BER I would have been aware of (more from the point of doing it anyway). Didn't realise renewable or M. Could you give a thumbnail of what's involved? Is it straightforward enough to obtain the detail and have a builder met requirements with enough architect involvement to monitor and provide clearance at the end?

It'd have living area upstairs and beds downstairs in all probability.

Technical Guidance Document Part L - http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,27316,en.pdf
Technical Guidance Document Part M - http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,24773,en.pdf

Look at the new dwelling sections of each of these. Remember to comply with Part M, at least one visitable room needs to be on the floor of the entrance. You will most likely need a BER Assessor unless your designer / Assigned Certifier can act into this role.

antiskeptic · 17-02-2016 9:32pm

kceire wrote: »

No problem. But just remember, my posts are my opinion, others may disagree with what I say.

Understood. The point is to get some "immersion" in the area so all info will tend to help to build the picture. It doesn't matter if not every person is right on every point. My trundling around in the dark leads to bumps but also emergence into the light on occasion. You just got to keep trundling.

the problem with this is how do you then prepare your public notices? The newspaper wording, the site notice wording and the application form all have to match word for word. So you cant really apply for a roof terrace, but if that doesn't work, we will do this, and if that's not possible, we will do that...if you get me.

An A0 site notice?

Roof terraces are generally hard to get planning for in Dublin depending on adjacent sites, over looking etc

Good to know. I did see one given planning on a single storey extension beside a prospect and there was some objection to it from neighbours. The workaround appears to be 7 ft high opaque glass screening. Perhaps okay from inside but pretty ugly from outside.

In my opinion, it would be best to go for a pre planning consultation with your drawings before you pay for public notices and application fees.

Which raises another general question encountered in my searching for suitable properties to do up. If I get permission for pre-planning from the vendor, pre-sale (which I gather is sufficient for the planners to deal with you), how do I go about restricting access to plans from the vendor so as not to alert him to the potential I see in the place. Human nature being what it is and all. Mine and theirs.

I was figuring some kind of contract on sale agreeing but pre-close that would bind him to proceed with sale but allow me to withdraw if pre-planning didn't go my way.

Is there a simpler way or does the vendor have a right to access pre-planning information - common sense says he does.

Technical Guidance Document Part L - http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,27316,en.pdf
Technical Guidance Document Part M - http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,24773,en.pdf

Look at the new dwelling sections of each of these. Remember to comply with Part M, at least one visitable room needs to be on the floor of the entrance. You will most likely need a BER Assessor unless your designer / Assigned Certifier can act into this role.

Thanks / OMG.

I had a look a Part L and searched the term "change of use". The first instance occurs on page 3 and points back to the transitional use of a previous document. The next instance is p.25 and occurs under the treatment of Existing Dwellings section. The reference relates to changing an existing building (presumably not yet a dwelling) into a dwelling, a grade below (as it were) changing one type of dwelling into another dwelling. I was going a bit crossed eyed, granted, but didn't note anything in my scanning around New Buildings to suggest the more onerous aspects of part L would apply

On your recommendation, I had a chat with a BER assessor I used selling a house recently and although he wasn't up to speed on the detail, he didn't see Part L New Dwellings as possible to apply to existing buildings, given the difficulties of applying standards on e.g. air tightness and thermal bridging .. to existing buildings - you'd effectively have to rip them apart and rebuild from a skeleton.

What do you reckon?

I'll scan part M during lunch tomorrow...

Gumbo · 17-02-2016 9:53pm

antiskeptic wrote: »

Good to know. I did see one given planning on a single storey extension beside a prospect and there was some objection to it from neighbours. The workaround appears to be 7 ft high opaque glass screening. Perhaps okay from inside but pretty ugly from outside.

I've seen them granted too, but most recently on new sites.
Go onto Dublin City Councils Planning Search Page, Type in "Farnham" in the location box and have a look at the 2 beds granted there. They are currently under construction and have a terrace with the high level opaque glass, but its a green field site so they could be designed from scratch to removed any overlooking issues.

antiskeptic wrote: »

Which raises another general question encountered in my searching for suitable properties to do up. If I get permission for pre-planning from the vendor, pre-sale (which I gather is sufficient for the planners to deal with you), how do I go about restricting access to plans from the vendor so as not to alert him to the potential I see in the place. Human nature being what it is and all. Mine and theirs.

I was figuring some kind of contract on sale agreeing but pre-close that would bind him to proceed with sale but allow me to withdraw if pre-planning didn't go my way.

Is there a simpler way or does the vendor have a right to access pre-planning information - common sense says he does.

You will need a letter of consent from the current owner to deal with the planners alright.
You hold the plans, you don't have to give them to the seller, but bear in mind, the pre planning process is not a there and then process. You give your plans to the planner, and sometimes it could be a month before you get an answer from them (Dublin experience here). Some Councils offer Pre App Consultation evenings, but that will depend on your location, Dublin do not at present.

The pre-sale thing, will have to be handled by you, your solicitor and the vendor, so I cant offer any of the legal advice there. You would need access to survey the property so that plans can be drawn up, its a drawn out process, and you migh face opposition from the vendor tbh.

antiskeptic wrote: »

Thanks / OMG.

I had a look a Part L and searched the term "change of use". The first instance occurs on page 3 and points back to the transitional use of a previous document. The next instance is p.25 and occurs under the treatment of Existing Dwellings section. The reference relates to changing an existing building (presumably not yet a dwelling) into a dwelling, a grade below (as it were) changing one type of dwelling into another dwelling. I was going a bit crossed eyed, granted, but didn't note anything in my scanning around New Buildings to suggest the more onerous aspects of part L would apply

On your recommendation, I had a chat with a BER assessor I used selling a house recently and although he wasn't up to speed on the detail, he didn't see Part L New Dwellings as possible to apply to existing buildings, given the difficulties of applying standards on e.g. air tightness and thermal bridging .. to existing buildings - you'd effectively have to rip them apart and rebuild from a skeleton.

What do you reckon?

I think your BER assessor needs to read up on legislation a bit more.
You are creating a new dwelling, you need to comply with the new regulations....full stop. Air Tightness is a relatively easy target, especially the Part L minimum targets, its the closer you approach air-tightness / passive that the attention to detail steps up a notch or two in my opinion.

I recently was inspecting a house in Dublin City, it was already a house, but the client effectively knocked it completely except for the front wall.....it needed planning to do the works, in building the house back up, the client had to meet current regulations, Part E (Sound), Part L, Part M can be relaxed in certain circumstances with regards to front door steps etc, especially when in City Centre's and the doors open directly onto a DCC owned footpath!

antiskeptic wrote: »

I'll scan part M during lunch tomorrow...

Part M is a profession in itself, so much so that there are access consultants out there! On a new dwelling its relatively straight forward though.

antiskeptic · 17-02-2016 10:49pm

kceire wrote: »

I've seen them granted too, but most recently on new sites.Go onto Dublin City Councils Planning Search Page, Type in "Farnham" in the location box and have a look at the 2 beds granted there. They are currently under construction and have a terrace with the high level opaque glass, but its a green field site so they could be designed from scratch to removed any overlooking issues.

Makes sense. From this side of the table I'd see a balcony / terrace as really setting the tone for a good remodelling. But were it a neighbour of mine planning same, add what it might to their house, I wouldn't be happy.

You hold the plans, you don't have to give them to the seller

Could he access them at the planners?

but bear in mind, the pre planning process is not a there and then process. You give your plans to the planner, and sometimes it could be a month before you get an answer from them (Dublin experience here). Some Councils offer Pre App Consultation evenings, but that will depend on your location, Dublin do not at present.

I gather Dun Laoghaire meet in a couple of weeks. Dunno about the current ex Dublin location.

I was thinking I could use the interminable time it takes to close deals to some useful effect - such as progressing planning. I'd have to have built up some kind of sense that's it's going to be a runner before closing. The pre-planning would aim to raise that another notch.

I think your BER assessor needs to read up on legislation a bit more.
You are creating a new dwelling, you need to comply with the new regulations....full stop. Air Tightness is a relatively easy target, especially the Part L minimum targets, its the closer you approach air-tightness / passive that the attention to detail steps up a notch or two in my opinion.

The assessor did mention his not being up to speed on the detail but he stood aghast at the idea that existing buildings be retro-fitted to meet new building regs (L3). Perhaps that gleaned from his experience of what goes into making a new building meet the L3 regs projected onto the disruption involved doing same to existing

A few things strike me from the TGD.

a) there's no 'change of use' reference in the New Dwelling section. How to conclude that change of use of existing dwelling means being drawn into the New Dwelling category.

b) I figure I'm not creating a new dwelling in a building sense. I'm altering an existing dwelling. The change of use arises in a planning context: from this dwelling to that dwelling.

c) I came across this below in the Section 2 (page 25) dealing with existing dwellings. Existing dwellings come under L2 rules which appear less onerous than L3 at first glance

Where a material change of use of an existing building to use as a dwelling occurs, the performance of the fabric elements of the newly provided dwelling should also meet the performance levels specified in this* subsection.

* where 'this' means section 2 / L3

It strikes as odd (especially in light of a) above) that I could be beholden to lighter-weight L2 regs when taking an existing non-dwelling, materially altering it in turning it into a dwelling. Yet would be beholden to the more stringent L3 when taking an existing dwelling and materially altering it to change it's use to another kind of dwelling.

I recently was inspecting a house in Dublin City, it was already a house, but the client effectively knocked it completely except for the front wall.....it needed planning to do the works, in building the house back up, the client had to meet current regulations, Part E (Sound), Part L, Part M can be relaxed in certain circumstances with regards to front door steps etc, especially when in City Centre's and the doors open directly onto a DCC owned footpath!

What? No 1:500 gradient ramp halfway across Dame St?

It strikes me in this case that the spirit of the law trumps the letter. The guy was, in effect, building a new build. I'm only looking to make a single silk purse house dwelling from a pigs ear apartment dwelling with some remodelling

Part M is a profession in itself, so much so that there are access consultants out there! On a new dwelling its relatively straight forward though.

Dunny time..

Approach to planning

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