Cost for getting into Dairy.

noworries2004

HI
I am currently inheriting a farm from my parents.
I am full time employed but have been doing beef cattle/tillage for the last 6 years for my parents as they could not do it themselves.

I plan to lease out the land to obtain the tax relief for land rental.
However as a long term project i may look at building a Milking palour and start into dairy again. We have sufficient space for hosuing etc but we do not have a milking palour. (We were in dairy 15yrs ago).


How much would it cost to get into dairy - build milking palour/cows etc?

Cheers

blue5000

For roughly how many cows?

Damo810

Any dairy farmers around you looking to expand? Would partnership be an option?

Huntergonzo

I was talking to a Teagasc advisor about this recently (not in depth just a casual conversation) but he reckons it costs roughly €4000 per cow to get into dairy farming, if you already have the land.

djmc

Wait another year or two with these low milk prices and it might be a lot cheaper as everybody that is dairying will be getting out and selling cows to clear bills.

freedominacup

djmc wrote: »

Wait another year or two with these low milk prices and it might be a lot cheaper as everybody that is dairying will be getting out and selling cows to clear bills.

Talking to a young man at a discussion group meeting yesterday. New entrant scheme in 2011. Gone from 120 to 160 this year and plans a similar jump next year. I wouldn't be holding my breath waiting for new entrants to quit.

Markcheese

I suppose a lot depends on how you do it, you hear of lads who have not much more than reels and pig tails .. !
But if you've got to build a parlour,and collecting yard- winter housing and calf houses- water and troughs- possibly a lot of reseeding and soil fertillity work, and then buy the cows it'll add up very quick ...
Scale will count though- if you're gonna be doing all that and servicing the debt you'll need to be milking large numbers... (assuming theres a profit per litre to be made),

Feckthis

Don't worry about any soil fertility or roadways or much else.
If you have the housing available and land. Rent the land to dairy farmer for fair price(you need to find a good farmer) on long term lease. If he is a good one the land, fencing, troughs, paddocks should be well looked after when you decide to go ahead you'll have a good start.

noworries2004

Thanks for the feedback.

For now i will look at renting to Dairy farmer if possible. In regards sheds etc, we have sufficient sheds/slats.
We would need to put up a new Collection area/Dairy palour.

I may look at partnership options if it is still popular in 5yrs.

Panch18

I could be completely wrong on this but aren't there tax implications if you take over a farm but don't farm it??

noworries2004

I would not be leasing all of it.
I will keep a certain area of it where i have GLAS entitlements on and still work it on smaller scale.

frazzledhome

djmc wrote: »

Wait another year or two with these low milk prices and it might be a lot cheaper as everybody that is dairying will be getting out and selling cows to clear bills.

Lol, and get into what exactly?

RightTurnClyde

frazzledhome wrote: »

Lol, and get into what exactly?

Ducks

pedigree 6

frazzledhome wrote: »

Lol, and get into what exactly?

A laying hen. Although if there was a laying hen there before they wouldn't be getting out.

Plenty of things that dairy farmers leaving get into.
When I bought my milking parlour secondhand the farmer was getting a job on the buildings in Dublin (just before the bust).
Other guys I know are driving lorries, working in the coop, in steel manufacturing.
It does happen.

Sam Kade

Huntergonzo wrote: »

I was talking to a Teagasc advisor about this recently (not in depth just a casual conversation) but he reckons it costs roughly €4000 per cow to get into dairy farming, if you already have the land.

That would be with the setup complete, you could also do certain jobs over a few years and Use cash flow to keep borrowing down.

darragh_haven

frazzledhome wrote: »

Lol, and get into what exactly?

Well, the only thing rivaling dairy farming (even in this low base price, dairy is tipping along nicely) is doing as little as possible and farming the system to the absolute max. Glas, SFP etc And then having a 5 day week job.

Dozer1

thought the ear to the ground piece was interesting this week on the organic side of milking.
we used to milk years ago, it was too small to continue so we went suckling and drystock and I work full time.

IF organic milk production could be viable in a smaller scale then its where I would look to join in the Dairy game.

Around my area there are very few successors sticking their heads up to go dairying, even from listening to some on here it shows the hours and stress involved for a diminishing return.

yes at your prime a one man outfit can handle 120+ cows but in 10 years what will your body and work life be like.
I wish them the best of luck but I think in 10 years the biggest stumbling block will be getting labour to help seasonally on bigger farms.

if you could make a living on an 80 cow organic farm surely it might be easier on mind and body.
just my tuppence worth

blue5000

Dozer1 wrote: »

thought the ear to the ground piece was interesting this week on the organic side of milking.
we used to milk years ago, it was too small to continue so we went suckling and drystock and I work full time.

IF organic milk production could be viable in a smaller scale then its where I would look to join in the Dairy game.

Around my area there are very few successors sticking their heads up to go dairying, even from listening to some on here it shows the hours and stress involved for a diminishing return.

yes at your prime a one man outfit can handle 120+ cows but in 10 years what will your body and work life be like.
I wish them the best of luck but I think in 10 years the biggest stumbling block will be getting labour to help seasonally on bigger farms.

if you could make a living on an 80 cow organic farm surely it might be easier on mind and body.
just my tuppence worth

There was a good bit of organic milk being produced in Denmark in the 1990's, more and more got in, next thing, there was no market for all the organic milk, and no price premium either. I think you'd have to go the whole way, produce and sell organic cheese yourself.

20silkcut

darragh_haven wrote: »

Well, the only thing rivaling dairy farming (even in this low base price, dairy is tipping along nicely) is doing as little as possible and farming the system to the absolute max. Glas, SFP etc And then having a 5 day week job.

This is me. The only problem is time especially in the winter.

Timmaay

20silkcut wrote: »

This is me. The only problem is time especially in the winter.

Darragh would long term leasing not be an equally good option, and in fact if your day job puts you into the top tax band I'd say it blows the socks off the other 2 options ha.

frazzledhome

Timmaay wrote: »

Darragh would long term leasing not be an equally good option, and in fact if your day job puts you into the top tax band I'd say it blows the socks off the other 2 options ha.

So people think there'll be an exodus of broke dairy farmers into construction, truck driving and leasing their land.

What exactly are people basing this on?

Nekarsulm

pedigree 6 wrote: »

A laying hen. Although if there was a laying hen there before they wouldn't be getting out.

Plenty of things that dairy farmers leaving get into.
When I bought my milking parlour secondhand the farmer was getting a job on the buildings in Dublin (just before the bust).
Other guys I know are driving lorries, working in the coop, in steel manufacturing.
It does happen.

When I bought my parlour second-hand the guy was getting into producing tubs of veg. salad, potato salad etc. Built a production unit right where the parlour had been.
Course his wife was a Very Senior officer in the county Dept. Ag as well.........

djmc

frazzledhome wrote: »

Lol, and get into what exactly?

I know of a few that left as well one opened a quarry another selling firewood and keeping dry cattle another hauling cattle with a truck and keeping sheep.
Milk price is still dropping and no upturn in sight.
I have worked for nothing for long enough in the past and won't be doing it for a long period of time again.

darragh_haven

Timmaay wrote: »

Darragh would long term leasing not be an equally good option, and in fact if your day job puts you into the top tax band I'd say it blows the socks off the other 2 options ha.

Yeah, the long term lease option to the neighbouring dairy farmer is definitely the most profitable for the landlord. But there are lot of people that would like to still hold onto the land even tho they can't utilise it to anywhere near its potential.

darragh_haven

frazzledhome wrote: »

So people think there'll be an exodus of broke dairy farmers into construction, truck driving and leasing their land.

What exactly are people basing this on?

There's no exodus here. More entering dairy if anything. More power to anyone going into it. I'd be going into dairy if I didn't have the job I do.

pedigree 6

frazzledhome wrote: »

So people think there'll be an exodus of broke dairy farmers into construction, truck driving and leasing their land.

What exactly are people basing this on?

History and realism it's always happened and will continue to happen.
Don't know about an exodus but to suggest otherwise is burying the head in the sand stuff. There were farmers quitting dairying when prices were good mostly for personal reasons and then before when the price dipped in 2009. It's only with quotas going that teagasc and the government and media were talking up that milk was going to be the saviour of the country and telling anyone that would listen that if your not in dairying then your not at the races.
Even glanbia are doing surveys to see how much milk you will be supplying for the next 5 years. So they want to know what capacity they will need in the future. However you're supposed to know that I don't know.

This is the reality now you just have to get used to it, there's no guarantee on price and some farmers will always exit whether for price now or personal reasons and other farmers now with quotas gone will enter into dairying.
Who knows what the future holds the price could go to 20 cent next month or it could reach 40 cent next year. Every farmer just has to play it by ear and manage their own farm. The future is exciting and frightening at the same time. It's always been that way.:rolleyes:

Mulumpy

I exited dairying this year. Was milking 65 cows and full time job. No interest in bursting myself trying to expand as was tightly stocked already. I've leased out half the land and putting dry stock on the rest. No regrets so far.

Timmaay

frazzledhome wrote: »

So people think there'll be an exodus of broke dairy farmers into construction, truck driving and leasing their land.

What exactly are people basing this on?

No, I said nothing about any sort of mass exodus, but you can't ignore that other option. If milk was still 40c/l and land was making 400e/acre long term leasing with the tax incentives it would still equally so be an option. It's actually a very useful yardstick for putting a land value here on my milk production, I'm essentially losing out on this "opportunity cost" by farming it myself instead.

Timmaay

Mulumpy wrote: »

I exited dairying this year. Was milking 65 cows and full time job. No interest in bursting myself trying to expand as was tightly stocked already. I've leased out half the land and putting dry stock on the rest. No regrets so far.

Funny enough I was only thinking about that mulumpy chap on boards yday haha, and how I hadn't seen a post from him in ages, and I just thought how the feck does he balance it this time of the year especially ha.

Milked out

Timmaay wrote: »

No, I said nothing about any sort of mass exodus, but you can't ignore that other option. If milk was still 40c/l and land was making 400e/acre long term leasing with the tax incentives it would still equally so be an option. It's actually a very useful yardstick for putting a land value here on my milk production, I'm essentially losing out on this "opportunity cost" by farming it myself instead.

400€ a bit extreme there Tim.

Timmaay

Milked out wrote: »

400€ a bit extreme there Tim.

Like kowtow said about arbitrage before, not really if milk had say stayed at 40c/l Base price ha, But 400e was just a figure pulled out of my arsed just to highlight the other extreme of the market.

Sam Kade

Timmaay wrote: »

Like kowtow said about arbitrage before, not really if milk had say stayed at 40c/l Base price ha, But 400e was just a figure pulled out of my arsed just to highlight the other extreme of the market.

I've heard 500 mentioned around cork :eek: and it was not an arse pulled figure.

kowtow

Sam Kade wrote:

I've heard 500 mentioned around cork and it was not an arse pulled figure.

So have I, although not this year to be fair.

darragh_haven

kowtow wrote: »

So have I, although not this year to be fair.

€260/acre for 30 acres over the road from me. Not connected to the milking platform.

Markcheese

New entrants with a lot of debt to be serviced wont be getting out unless they go bust .... they're only option is push everything on, bigger better more...
But lads who've been in dairying for a while, little debt , and little income at the moment, no appitite to change or expand ,they'll be thinking of getting out- and face it dairying doesnt suit every one ....

frazzledhome

Timmaay wrote: »

Funny enough I was only thinking about that mulumpy chap on boards yday haha, and how I hadn't seen a post from him in ages, and I just thought how the feck does he balance it this time of the year especially ha.

He hasn't time to post since retiring from the cows.

All the best with your decision

Dawggone

I can't understand where all this talk of dairy farmers getting out.
Farmers have to be a hell of a lot more resilient than what ye think. A bit of low prices sharpens the senses!

On a per acre basis dairy is still streets ahead of tillage and beef.

djmc

I am searously considering leaving dairying mainly due to land type altitude and rainfall that I am farming with I have more bad land than good
Renting close by is not an option either .
Longer winters and higher costs for things like straw growing grass as well as climate change are also problematic.
I know I will never compete with dairy farmers on good land.
I know of 7 small dairy farmers in my locality that have given up in the last number of years none are full time farmers now and all have other sources of income as well as beef or rearing dairy cattle.
A lot depends on the farmer's own circumstances what has kept me at it so long is the school runs and children would prevent me from holding full time employment off the farm.

pedigree 6

Dawggone wrote: »

I can't understand where all this talk of dairy farmers getting out.
Farmers have to be a hell of a lot more resilient than what ye think. A bit of low prices sharpens the senses!

On a per acre basis dairy is still streets ahead of tillage and beef.

Ah I don't telling farmers to be more resilient has anything to do with it.
Every individual is unique and every situation is unique to that individual.

We have seen low prices before but thankfully it was just for the one year in 2009 and then in the eighties and nineties at times. I think the difference now is that we're told the real price is 19 cents or lower and the coops are subbing the difference. How long this will last. Does anyone here know. Honestly I don't. You can't say dairying is better than tillage or drystock. It might have been last year but could change next year. There's never a guarantee on what price you're going to get.

jaymla627

pedigree 6 wrote: »

Ah I don't telling farmers to be more resilient has anything to do with it.
Every individual is unique and every situation is unique to that individual.

We have seen low prices before but thankfully it was just for the one year in 2009 and then in the eighties and nineties at times. I think the difference now is that we're told the real price is 19 cents or lower and the coops are subbing the difference. How long this will last. Does anyone here know. Honestly I don't. You can't say dairying is better than tillage or drystock. It might have been last year but could change next year. There's never a guarantee on what price you're going to get.

Have done tillage/sucklers here in the past and while their wasnt been a fortune made out of it, was always able to work off farm to make up the shortfall....
Thats where dairying falls down your basically tied to the place if your running big numbers and are depending on the cows to pay the bills, at least with tillage/beef once the busy periods are over you arent killed with work and have time to get away from the farm/clear the head with dairying its 24/7

Mulumpy

frazzledhome wrote:

All the best with your decision

Still busy enough cause back in coop 6 weeks earlier than normal for production. Kept the older cows so calving them at the moment. Neighbour buying them as they calve. Actually starting to enjoy farming again instead of chasing my tail all the time.

Sam Kade

djmc wrote: »

I am searously considering leaving dairying mainly due to land type altitude and rainfall that I am farming with I have more bad land than good
Renting close by is not an option either .
Longer winters and higher costs for things like straw growing grass as well as climate change are also problematic.
I know I will never compete with dairy farmers on good land.
I know of 7 small dairy farmers in my locality that have given up in the last number of years none are full time farmers now and all have other sources of income as well as beef or rearing dairy cattle.
A lot depends on the farmer's own circumstances what has kept me at it so long is the school runs and children would prevent me from holding full time employment off the farm.

How is climate change affecting your farming?

frazzledhome

noworries2004 wrote: »

HI
I am currently inheriting a farm from my parents.
I am full time employed but have been doing beef cattle/tillage for the last 6 years for my parents as they could not do it themselves.

I plan to lease out the land to obtain the tax relief for land rental.
However as a long term project i may look at building a Milking palour and start into dairy again. We have sufficient space for hosuing etc but we do not have a milking palour. (We were in dairy 15yrs ago).


How much would it cost to get into dairy - build milking palour/cows etc?

Cheers

Parlour €59k with building
Roadways €15-20 per meter at 4m wide on good ground
Cows €1200 each
You may also have to buy shares in a processor

Why bother leasing?
Why not get in next year? A lot of frightened horses out there and value will be there.

visatorro

Mulumpy wrote: »

Still busy enough cause back in coop 6 weeks earlier than normal for production. Kept the older cows so calving them at the moment. Neighbour buying them as they calve. Actually starting to enjoy farming again instead of chasing my tail all the time.

I'll be the only rehab running around between shifts to try keep farm ticking over! If you miss it this time next year gimme a shout.

If it feels right then you made best decision. Best of luck

djmc

Sam Kade wrote: »

How is climate change affecting your farming?

Sounds strange I know but in the last 5 years I had to repair farm roadways 3 times
I'm farming on a hillside and rainfall is the highest in the country in this area
It washes stones and gravel off roads blocked drains filled slatted unit with water and washed gravel onto fields.
I never had these problems before 10 years ago the rain just seems more intense now with flash floods.

Sam Kade

djmc wrote: »

Sounds strange I know but in the last 5 years I had to repair farm roadways 3 times
I'm farming on a hillside and rainfall is the highest in the country in this area
It washes stones and gravel off roads blocked drains filled slatted unit with water and washed gravel onto fields.
I never had these problems before 10 years ago the rain just seems more intense now with flash floods.

But climate is weather over a long period not a few wet winters in a row.

djmc

Had good and bad winters with years I wouldn't take much notice of that but when you get phenomena like flash flooding on a yearly basis even in summer that we never got in living memory I would put it down to something else like climate change.
The rivers have always flooded but I'm talking about intense rain that turn dry roadways into rivers.
Climate has always changed throughout history and I think that's what's happening now.

blue5000

dj can you dig a drain beside the roadway? From what I remember mongolia is in the deep SW? You'd be getting twice as much rain as some of the rest of us. Was on a 'better farm' near Lixnaw and they've done a great job draining land, might be worth a visit for inspiration.

djmc

There is a drain on the right of the roadway and a drain at the bottom of every field
I put 5 small drains or channels across the roadway during summer to take the water off the road but the volume of rainwater filled the channels with gravel and cut its own track straight into the yard at the bottom.
Drainage is an ongoing event around here.
Lixnaw and north Kerry don't get it as bad it seems the mountains of Killarney and dingle causes rain to get dumped on us any time the wind comes from the south or west which is most of the time.
The wind from the north just brings cold rain or snow.

keep going

My self and herself were talking about this last night and went through the milking lads around us, at the end we came to the conclusion the more successful lads just that burning interest in what they did and some others should never have gone at it in the first place even though they might have had alot of advantages at the start

Dawggone

Maybe change the thread to "Getting out of dairying"?

In the near future there will be many opportunities for those wanting into dairying.