1916 narrated by Liam Neeson. Read mod warning in post 1

josephryan1989

Mod warning:
Please note that this is the Television forum and not History & Heritage. While of course there is a small amount of ancillary conversation expected about any tv program, I would suggest that if you wish to have a more in depth discussion of 1916 then the H&H forum may suit your needs better. If the discussion gets too in depth here you may be directed to post in H&H rather than on this thread.


I just watched the awesome RTE commissioned 1916 documentary made by Co Co production narrated by Liam Neeson which features archive recordings of interviews with a range of participants in the Rising plus commentary by leading academic historians such as Ronan Fanning Charles Townshend and Diarmuid Ferriter.

The Awakening episode gave a summary of British misrule of Ireland getting into more detail after the Great Famine covering the rise of the Irish Parliamentary Party and the Fenians the Home Rule Crisis the menacing threat of the UVF which led to the creation of the Irish Volunteers and how John Devoy Roger Casement Tom Clarke James Connolly and Patrick Pearse began plotting rebellion after John Redmond betrayed Irish Nationalism by supporting The Great War.

I am looking forward to the second episode.

ben.schlomo

A thoroughly enjoyable watch. Rte should focus on this style of programming as opposed to some of the so called 'entertainment' programmes on both the main channels.

Oops69

Thought It was a bit light on detail but would be suitable for a an international audience who wouldn't necessarily have an interest in the detail , Liam NEesons narration is very suitable , I wouldn't be calling it ' awesome ' yet , it's only one programme in , I've a feeling it's not really going to be particularly groundbreaking or memorable .

Strazdas

Oops69 wrote: »

Thought It was a bit light on detail but would be suitable for a an international audience who wouldn't necessarily have an interest in the detail , Liam NEesons narration is very suitable , I wouldn't be calling it ' awesome ' yet , it's only one programme in , I've a feeling it's not really going to be particularly groundbreaking or memorable .

It seems to be aimed at an American audience, rather than an Irish one which hampers it somewhat from a domestic viewpoint.

The use of archive footage and photos is very good though. I would say a decent enough effort so far but I wouldn't call it outstanding.

fin12

Ya it was very good.

josephryan1989

Strazdas wrote: »

It seems to be aimed at an American audience, rather than an Irish one which hampers it somewhat from a domestic viewpoint.

The use of archive footage and photos is very good though. I would say a decent enough effort so far but I wouldn't call it outstanding.

Why wouldn't there be an emphasis on the American connection? America played a central role in the fight for Irish freedom.

The influence of the American Revolution and the United States on the French Revolution and the 1798 Rebellion by the United Irishmen was obvious. America was the primary destination of the coffin ships and millions of Irish exiles after the Famine and the decades that followed. The Fenians O'Donovan Rossa John Devoy and Tom Clarke took refuge in America. Later James Connolly and Patrick Pearse spoke and fundraised there. The 1916 Proclamation echoes the American Declaration of Independence.

Your historical ignorance is obvious.

The documentary explains the basics to someone who doesn't have the first idea about Irish separatism and republicanism. I am very impressed.

It unapologetical gives the viewer the facts unfiltered through a West Brit revisionism.

Doodah7

josephryan1989 wrote: »

Why wouldn't there be an emphasis on the American connection? America played a central role in the fight for Irish freedom.

The influence of the American Revolution and the United States on the French Revolution and the 1798 Rebellion by the United Irishmen was obvious. America was the primary destination of the coffin ships and millions of Irish exiles after the Famine and the decades that followed. The Fenians O'Donovan Rossa John Devoy and Tom Clarke took refuge in America. Later James Connolly and Patrick Pearse spoke and fundraised there. The 1916 Proclamation echoes the American Declaration of Independence.

Your historical ignorance is obvious.

The documentary explains the basics to someone who doesn't have the first idea about Irish separatism and republicanism. I am very impressed.

It unapologetical gives the viewer the facts unfiltered through a West Brit revisionism.

Why are people who are so eager to give their opinion on the issues of British rule in Ireland always just that little bit aggressive and angry?

wawaman

Oops69 wrote: »

Thought It was a bit light on detail but would be suitable for a an international audience who wouldn't necessarily have an interest in the detail , Liam NEesons narration is very suitable , I wouldn't be calling it ' awesome ' yet , it's only one programme in , I've a feeling it's not really going to be particularly groundbreaking or memorable .

It is due to be screened in the US & UK at some point so that would be why it was more accessable for other audiences

josephryan1989

tallpaul wrote: »

Why are people who are so eager to give their opinion on the issues of British rule in Ireland always just that little bit aggressive and angry?

Read a history book and educate yourself about British rule in Ireland. The evil of British rule in Ireland speaks for itself.

Unfortunately the majority of British people don't have the first clue about their own history because of they did they would be republicans too.

Madd Finn

josephryan1989 wrote: »

Why wouldn't there be an emphasis on the American connection? America played a central role in the fight for Irish freedom.

The influence of the American Revolution and the United States on the French Revolution and the 1798 Rebellion by the United Irishmen was obvious. America was the primary destination of the coffin ships and millions of Irish exiles after the Famine and the decades that followed. The Fenians O'Donovan Rossa John Devoy and Tom Clarke took refuge in America. Later James Connolly and Patrick Pearse spoke and fundraised there. The 1916 Proclamation echoes the American Declaration of Independence.

Your historical ignorance is obvious.

The documentary explains the basics to someone who doesn't have the first idea about Irish separatism and republicanism. I am very impressed.

It unapologetical gives the viewer the facts unfiltered through a West Brit revisionism.

You can't tell the first thing about Strazdas' historical knowledge from that post. He/she was giving an opinion of a TV programme, not debating the historical points that were the programme's subject.

And he/she is quite right. It's clearly aimed at the "export" market. And it rather soft peddled on the historical fact that the majority Irish opinion in the run up to the First World War was solidly on the side of the Nationalist party. To make their point the Republicans had to infiltrate, subvert and subborn the Irish Volunteers in a conspiracy with which most of its members, who were already in France, would have had no empathy at all.

And there's nothing wrong with "revisionism". We should always be prepared to "look again" (the original meaning of re videre )at the facts of history. That doesn't necessarily result in a "rewriting" of history.

But sometimes even that is justified

conorhal

ben.schlomo wrote: »

A thoroughly enjoyable watch. Rte should focus on this style of programming as opposed to some of the so called 'entertainment' programmes on both the main channels.

It doesn't need to, RTE could simply show some of the brilliant documentaries on the subject, many focused on really interesting and unknown stories from that period, that TG4 have produced over the past couple of years. They have been some of the best documentaries I've seen lately regardless of subject matter and should get a wider audience.

JohnFalstaff

conorhal wrote: »

It doesn't need to, RTE could simply show some of the brilliant documentaries on the subject, many focused on really interesting and unknown stories from that period, that TG4 have produced over the past couple of years. They have been some of the best documentaries I've seen lately regardless of subject matter and should get a wider audience.

Absolutely, TG4 are currently repeating a series of connected documentaries called 'Seachtar Na Cásca' and 'Seachtar Dearmadta' - 14 episodes in total, one for each of the rebels executed in Kilmainham following the 1916 Rising. It's a powerful piece of work and it doesn't shy away from giving you an honest appraisal of the leaders of the rebellion - warts and all as they say.

Watching the stories of those involved in the Rising unfold week after week, getting to know the motivations and sacrifices of those involved, and then seeing each man executed at the end of every episode creates a profound effect. It's a monumental achievement by TG4 and one that they must have been planning for some time with an eye on this centenary year.

josephryan1989

Madd Finn wrote: »

You can't tell the first thing about Strazdas' historical knowledge from that post. He/she was giving an opinion of a TV programme, not debating the historical points that were the programme's subject.

And he/she is quite right. It's clearly aimed at the "export" market. And it rather soft peddled on the historical fact that the majority Irish opinion in the run up to the First World War was solidly on the side of the Nationalist party. To make their point the Republicans had to infiltrate, subvert and subborn the Irish Volunteers in a conspiracy with which most of its members, who were already in France, would have had no empathy at all.

And there's nothing wrong with "revisionism". We should always be prepared to "look again" (the original meaning of re videre )at the facts of history. That doesn't necessarily result in a "rewriting" of history.

But sometimes even that is justified

The overwhelming endorsement of Sinn Fein in 1918? You are surely overlooking the obvious aren't you? Nationalist Ireland did not just want Home Rule. They wanted a Republic. When they had an alternative to Redmond they took it.

The West Brit revisionists have attempted a complete rewrite of Irish history. They concentrate on the eccentricities of the rebels and on tenuous grounds attempt to redraw Pearse as a proto Hitler. It is shameful disgusting and threadbare.

cowboyBuilder

How many episodes are planned ?

josephryan1989

cowboyBuilder wrote: »

How many episodes are planned ?

Three. The first episode deals with the history and events leading up to the Rising. The second describes how the Rising unfolded and the third deals with the immediate aftermath subsequent Irish history and its influence on world history.

Shurimgreat

JohnFalstaff wrote: »

Absolutely, TG4 are currently repeating a series of connected documentaries called 'Seachtar Na Cásca' and 'Seachtar Dearmadta' - 14 episodes in total, one for each of the rebels executed in Kilmainham following the 1916 Rising. It's a powerful piece of work and it doesn't shy away from giving you an honest appraisal of the leaders of the rebellion - warts and all as they say.

Watching the stories of those involved in the Rising unfold week after week, getting to know the motivations and sacrifices of those involved, and then seeing each man executed at the end of every episode creates a profound effect. It's a monumental achievement by TG4 and one that they must have been planning for some time with an eye on this centenary year.

TG4 for all its detractors has so far been head and shoulders over the other channels when it comes to the Rising. I saw the episode about Ned Daly last night and it was really well done. You definitely felt yourself buying into it and it captures the era very well.

I think these Seachtar episodes will go down as classics of Irish television.

As for the Liam Neeson narrated one, it was good, if a bit more academic. It seems to be led by the historians and brings a different perspective again. I think Gearoid o Tuathaigh is an advisor. I'd consider him an expert on the era, particularly Ireland in the late 19th/early 20th century.

P. Breathnach

josephryan1989 wrote: »

...
The West Brit revisionists have attempted a complete rewrite of Irish history....

The use of the phrase "West Brit" serves for me as a warning that its user has a fixed view that is not open for discussion.

One thing I liked about the programme was there was a clear intent to present things in a reasoned way, avoiding emotive language.

The highly-concentrated history of how Ireland became enmeshed with England and then the UK might be a great challenge to viewers with little or no prior understanding of Irish history.

Falthyron

josephryan1989 wrote: »

The overwhelming endorsement of Sinn Fein in 1918? You are surely overlooking the obvious aren't you? Nationalist Ireland did not just want Home Rule. They wanted a Republic. When they had an alternative to Redmond they took it.

The West Brit revisionists have attempted a complete rewrite of Irish history. They concentrate on the eccentricities of the rebels and on tenuous grounds attempt to redraw Pearse as a proto Hitler. It is shameful disgusting and threadbare.

It is always refreshing to read such open-minded and objective viewpoints on topics of contention. You keep fightin' the good fight, Sir. Somebody, somewhere on the internet will be convinced of your unflinching and fact-based convictions. :rolleyes:

Strazdas

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The use of the phrase "West Brit" serves for me as a warning that its user has a fixed view that is not open for discussion.

One thing I liked about the programme was there was a clear intent to present things in a reasoned way, avoiding emotive language.

The highly-concentrated history of how Ireland became enmeshed with England and then the UK might be a great challenge to viewers with little or no prior understanding of Irish history.

As a history lesson for those outside of Ireland, it works very well. It seems the plan was that this was always going to be shown in the US.

Not 'entirely' sure having so many different historians in the same episode is the best of ideas, it gives the documentary a rather weighty and academic feel.

P. Breathnach

Strazdas wrote: »

As a history lesson for those outside of Ireland, it works very well. It seems the plan was that this was always going to be shown in the US.

I think it is too concentrated; you seem not to think so. That's a wait and see question.

I do think it was a reasonably fair and balanced representation. There's always some room to quibble.

Not 'entirely' sure having so many different historians in the same episode is the best of ideas, it gives the documentary a rather weighty and academic feel.

It also gives it some authority, and the historians chosen were all good communicators. Yes, there might have been too many, but whose contribution would you cut?

Strazdas

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I think it is too concentrated; you seem not to think so. That's a wait and see question.

I do think it was a reasonably fair and balanced representation. There's always some room to quibble.

It also gives it some authority, and the historians chosen were all good communicators. Yes, there might have been too many, but whose contribution would you cut?

I enjoy historical documentaries as much as the next person and the contributions from historians are often the most interesting and entertaining part, but I lost track of the amount of talking heads last night. They'd want to be careful it doesn't come across as an exercise in academia.

Shurimgreat

I think the documentary referenced the precedents of 1916 and a long tradition of Irish resistance movements such as 1798, the Fenians and so on.

However, by 1910, physical force Republicanism was in a bit of a crisis and yes the Home Rulers were in the ascendency as evidenced by the number of seats they held in the House of Commons.

The documentary reveals how WW1 caused a split in the Volunteers, one group following Redmond, the other following Eoin McNeil and Co. WW1 was a godsend for the rebels and helped Irish freedom in the long run.

This is the advantage of documentaries strongly influenced by historians. Rather than just giving a narrative of events, they explain the motivations of those involved and where they were coming from. They put the viewer in the shoes of those involved, looking forward rather than just looking back with the benefit of hindsight.

conorhal

Shurimgreat wrote: »

TG4 for all its detractors has so far been head and shoulders over the other channels when it comes to the Rising. I saw the episode about Ned Daly last night and it was really well done. You definitely felt yourself buying into it and it captures the era very well.

I think these Seachtar episodes will go down as classics of Irish television.

As for the Liam Neeson narrated one, it was good, if a bit more academic. It seems to be led by the historians and brings a different perspective again. I think Gearoid o Tuathaigh is an advisor. I'd consider him an expert on the era, particularly Ireland in the late 19th/early 20th century.

It's amazing what can be achieved creatively when you're outside the gaze of the vapid legally blonde Sauron's of Montrose. If RTE really wanted a creative reinvigoration, as opposed to giving us the same tried and failed programes and personalities, they should fire the lot at the top and bring in the TG4 management and programmers wholesale. Twould be like RTE's very own 1916!

Strazdas

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I think the documentary referenced the precedents of 1916 and a long tradition of Irish resistance movements such as 1798, the Fenians and so on.

However, by 1910, physical force Republicanism was in a bit of a crisis and yes the Home Rulers were in the ascendency as evidenced by the number of seats they held in the House of Commons.

The documentary reveals how WW1 caused a split in the Volunteers, one group following Redmond, the other following Eoin McNeil and Co. WW1 was a godsend for the rebels and helped Irish freedom in the long run.

This is the advantage of documentaries strongly influenced by historians. Rather than just giving a narrative of events, they explain the motivations of those involved and where they were coming from. They put the viewer in the shoes of those involved, looking forward rather than just looking back with the benefit of hindsight.

One interesting thing I didn't realise before was that Dublin and Ireland went into decline after the Act of Union in 1801. This may well have been a big factor in the rise of Irish nationalism in the late 19th century and with the Gaelic Revival. It may well have been the case that Ireland was regarded as a second class part of the UK, possibly because it was predominately Catholic : perhaps Ireland breaking free of the Union in the 20th century was an almost inevitability.

Interesting too that the Rising was originally intended to be much, much larger and to take place across the country. We could easily have ended up with a popular uprising / revolution scenario that year.

amdublin

mod:

Please read warning placed in post #1

mick malones mauser

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I think the documentary referenced the precedents of 1916 and a long tradition of Irish resistance movements such as 1798, the Fenians and so on.

However, by 1910, physical force Republicanism was in a bit of a crisis and yes the Home Rulers were in the ascendency as evidenced by the number of seats they held in the House of Commons.

I think physical force republicanism was/is always in a bit of a crisis (its the nature of the beast) and yes The Irish Parliamentary Party had made great strides in the promises it extracted from Britain regarding home rule....but many of these promises were made on the back of the disastrous Fenian/IRB dynamite campaign of the 1880s (Scotland Yard blown up/attemps to blow up the House of Commons).These events saw the British make promises to the moderates like Parnell,promises they never kept which ultimately led to the "physical force" men coming to the fore again.Tom Clarke of course was one of the dynamiters of the 1880s
And so it goes,around in circles.
That said I enjoyed the first episode,thought it was very accurate and fair

Thread just reminded me I missed this , must see if it's on the player. Really enjoyed the the life during 1915 one a few weeks ago.

Mr.Nice Guy

I liked it too.

I read that the BBC bought the rights to this. I wonder will it make prime time or wind up on BBC Four?

mick malones mauser

BBC Four is a great station

Mr.Nice Guy

mick malones mauser wrote: »

BBC Four is a great station

It is, only it does a fraction of the viewers that BBC 1 and 2 pull in. Putting it on BBC Four would indicate they don't think their mainstream audience would have enough interest.

I'm sure BBC NI will show it though.

Coillte_Bhoy

An edited version will be aired on BBC 4

Edward Hopper

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

An edited version will be aired on BBC 4

Edited in what way?

Ah I get you, removing the ad breaks.

Strazdas

Edward Hopper wrote: »

Edited in what way?

Ah I get you, removing the ad breaks.

No, that wouldn't mean "edited". Sounds like they're going to chop parts of it.

Edward Hopper

Strazdas wrote: »

No, that wouldn't mean "edited". Sounds like they're going to chop parts of it.

Presume there must be a link to this news somewhere then?

Strazdas

Edward Hopper wrote: »

Presume there must be a link to this news somewhere then?

It's definitely correct, I read somewhere this week (think it may have been an Irish Times article) that an edited version will be shown on BBC4.

Edward Hopper

Strazdas wrote: »

It's definitely correct, I read somewhere this week (think it may have been an Irish Times article) that an edited version will be shown on BBC4.

I'll have a Google thanks

Strazdas

Edward Hopper wrote: »

I'll have a Google thanks

Found it

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/international-take-up-on-rising-documentary-phenomenal-1.2529376

Edward Hopper

Strazdas wrote: »

Found it

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/international-take-up-on-rising-documentary-phenomenal-1.2529376

Ha-ha, was just about to post the same thing. Very interesting to see how the edit works out.

Strazdas

Edward Hopper wrote: »

Ha-ha, was just about to post the same thing. Very interesting to see how the edit works out.

There could be any number of reasons why they want to edit it. For starters, it's probably about 50 minutes per episode minus ads, which may not suit their schedule own schedule. They might to decide to edit it down to two one hour episodes or something.

Shurimgreat

Are they going to edit out the bits that make the Brits look like the bad guys? It will be interesting to see what parts they edit out.

I think it could go down well in the UK, given that none of this is taught through the education system in the UK. All the English actors who came over to act in Rebellion had no clue about those times.

JohnFalstaff

Most of the funding for this series was raised directly through the Notre Dame institute that made the documentary. So it's likely that the documentary makers themselves are the ones who will be re-editing the series and offering it in various forms to broadcasters.

This link: http://1916.nd.edu/1916-the-irish-rebellion/ mentions two versions, the 3 part series and an 80 minute feature version.

Strazdas

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Are they going to edit out the bits that make the Brits look like the bad guys? It will be interesting to see what parts they edit out.

I think it could go down well in the UK, given that none of this is taught through the education system in the UK. All the English actors who came over to act in Rebellion had no clue about those times.

Yes, 1916 and the War of Independence is not even on the UK curriculum, so most people there wouldn't have a clue what it was all about.

Strazdas

JohnFalstaff wrote: »

Most of the funding for this series was raised directly through the Notre Dame institute that made the documentary. So it's likely that the documentary makers themselves are the ones who will be re-editing the series and offering it in various forms to broadcasters.

This link: http://1916.nd.edu/1916-the-irish-rebellion/ mentions two versions, the 3 part series and an 80 minute feature version.

That probably explains too why the series is rather weighty and academic in tone.

Stojkovic

Strazdas wrote: »

Yes, 1916 and the War of Independence is not even on the UK curriculum, so most people there wouldn't have a clue what it was all about.

Why would it be ?

They only celebrate victories - Agincourt (they lost 100 years War btw), Waterloo, the Armada etc etc

youreadthat

Stojkovic wrote: »

Why would it be ?

They only celebrate victories - Agincourt (they lost 100 years War btw), Waterloo, the Armada etc etc

100 years war should be celebrated. It was a loss but it allowed England to emerge as an independent entity with its own identity, rather than its aristocrats continuing their obsession with being French.

Talking of BBC4, they had a good 3 parter on it a couple of years ago.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

Edward Hopper

Patww79 wrote: »

When is the second part of this on? I thought it was tonight but it's not on the EPG.

Wednesday @ 21.35

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

LiamKK82

Does anyone know the music that plays in the promos.

Strazdas

Stojkovic wrote: »

Why would it be ?

They only celebrate victories - Agincourt (they lost 100 years War btw), Waterloo, the Armada etc etc

You could make the same point about Irish state history : playing up the positives and the successes, but glossing over the negatives. I wonder how much Irish people know about the Civil War for example (and yet we know it was far more bloody and violent than the War of Independence).

Stojkovic

Strazdas wrote: »

You could make the same point about Irish state history : playing up the positives and the successes, but glossing over the negatives. I wonder how much Irish people know about the Civil War for example (and yet we know it was far more bloody and violent than the War of Independence).

Yes of course.

1916 gets celebrated (as the catalyst) but the War of Independence achieved what the failed Rising didnt.

I only found out yesterday that a relative if mine went on hunger strike during the civil war.