PRTB - Landlord moving into Apartment

tommy100

Hi, i am a landlord waiting to move back into my apartment. I have all the correct notices and periods etc.
The tenants filed a dispute as they wanted to stay, which has delayed my move. In the mean time one tenant has moved out. The other tenant has been problematic. The tenant is resfusing to pay rent and is currently residing in property.
My questions are as follows.
Can i move into the apartment this weekend as i had planned, ? ( tenant has been notified, but informs me that i have to give her 24 hour notice to enter apartment, as a landlord?)

As one tenant has left, surely i can move in as owner occupier (Please note that they did not rent apartment together as awhole.)
If tenant does not allow me in, is tenant liable for entire rent?
I have heard that dispute hearing can take months to return with a verdict on a dispute hearing.
Legally, what can i do about this situation?, as i need to make the move to dublin soon.

Lantus

If you rented each room separate with an understanding that the living room is shared you could be able to move in all right. At that point your remaining tenant becomes a licencee. Hopefully all being well you can throw their trash out the front door and change the locks at your leisure with as little notice as you like.

Victor

That may be fraught with legal and practical difficulties.

You should seek legal advice before proceeding on such a course.

newacc2015

IMO you have no choice but to call a solicitor. Ill informed that you might read online could mean this dispute going on for several months, maybe a year and a massive fine from the PRTB.

I would find a decent Solicitor and not your mom and pop local solicitor who isnt too sure. A lot of Irish solicitors are clueless on the ins and outs of tenancy law.

the_syco

tommy100 wrote: »

Please note that they did not rent apartment together as awhole.

You could move in, but the problematic tenant could cause you stress, and also interfere with your personal property, so I wouldn't. Talk to a solicitor, and play very hardball with the remaining tenant.

davo10

You need legal advice but do write to your tenant that as per her contract tenants are joint and severely liable for monthly rent. As the other tenant moved out, she is now on the hook for the full amount.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

If they're not paying rent issue eviction notices.

Lantus

davo10 wrote: »

You need legal advice but do write to your tenant that as per her contract tenants are joint and severely liable for monthly rent. As the other tenant moved out, she is now on the hook for the full amount.

Op has stated that they do not have a joint contract and only rent a room each with access to shared areas.

TheChizler

Purely as a hypothetical, and not for the OP to follow as they need legal advice, but once the tenancy has officially ended, by the correct notice having been served and protocol adhered to, and the landlord moved in, would it not then be a rent-a-room situation, where the tenant has no rights and can be kicked out at a moment's notice? Or does the original tenancy not end until the tenant moves out. Could the current tenant for instance agree to a licencee type situation, and a contract be drawn up to that effect? Of course a dispute lodged with the PRTB complicates things.

Again OP ignore this as its hypothetical.

the_syco

TheChizler wrote: »

Or does the original tenancy not end until the tenant moves out.

Pretty sure it's this.

TheChizler wrote: »

Could the current tenant for instance agree to a licencee type situation, and a contract be drawn up to that effect?

If the tenant is not paying rent now, I doubt they'll sign into a new contract with less rights.

=-=

Personally, I'd check with the solicitor if you could officially move in, so that you could wander in at will and without notice (as you were officially living there). But only if the solicitor is sure this wouldn't go against you.

esforum

I would move in but that I dont think it would void the existing tenency and make that person a licensee, they signed a lease as a tenent and they would remain a tenent.

I have visions of the Breakup happening here and I think Victors advise is the best you will get

Lantus

Is it a tenancy if they each only rented a room and had access to common areas. Basically neither had exclusive use of the property. Op needs to check the contract he issued.

If the above is the case then its not covered by prtb. Moving in would be OK as one tenant has left. As remaining tenant never had exclusive use and new tenant is now owner then existing tenant is just a licencee. No rights.

tommy100

Thanks for all your comments, just to clarify, the current tenant does not have fixed contract anymore, so its just a part 4 tenancy.
I live a few hours away, so just can't pop over.
I blame the PRTB, Its all protection for the tenant and nothing for landlord.

Can someone explain what OP is??

ZENER

What's to stop you moving in to the vacant room as a tenant ? I'm guessing it's up to you to choose tenants being the landlord ?

Ken

Penny Tration

tommy100 wrote: »

Thanks for all your comments, just to clarify, the current tenant does not have fixed contract anymore, so its just a part 4 tenancy.
I live a few hours away, so just can't pop over.
I blame the PRTB, Its all protection for the tenant and nothing for landlord.

Can someone explain what OP is??

OP means "original poster" (you, the person who started this thread).

Did your tenant rent a room, with access to common areas, or sign a lease for the entire building with others?

Lantus

tommy100 wrote: »

Thanks for all your comments, just to clarify, the current tenant does not have fixed contract anymore, so its just a part 4 tenancy.
I live a few hours away, so just can't pop over.
I blame the PRTB, Its all protection for the tenant and nothing for landlord.

Can someone explain what OP is??

Did you rent each room separate to each tenant and each pay rent direct to you plus deposit?

Or did you rent to both tenants at the same time jointly and they paid a single deposit and rent to you.

If you rented the rooms separately I see no reason why you cannot move yourself into the spare room as a new tenant.

tommy100

2 bed apartment. Rented rooms at different times, one tenant is year and a half, other is 6 months. separate deposits and rents payed. Yes, they have full access to rent of the apartment.

Lantus

tommy100 wrote: »

2 bed apartment. Rented rooms at different times, one tenant is year and a half, other is 6 months. separate deposits and rents payed. Yes, they have full access to rent of the apartment.

You have rented rooms not the apartment. Thats good for you. Make sure the contract reflects that you rented a room with access to the apartment. It should.

On what you've said you would be well within your rights to move in to the other bedroom. As the owner who doesn't pay rent the relationship changes to a licencee arrangement. You can as the owner make any changes you see fit. The tenancy has ended for your other tenant. I'd give fair warning that they will be leaving in x days after you move back in if they haven't gone by then already. Stuff thrown out and locks changed. Prtb don't cover this as a tenancy is classed as having exclusive use of a property which they never had. So let her complain away!

Of course contact prtb yourself and threshold to get your own free advice.

DrDonkey

DrDonkey wrote: »

Original Poster

Rather than blaming the PRTB, check the contract that you originally issued to the remaining tenant... and see if you let them the apartment or the room.
Then speak to your solicitor

Unlikely there was any contract, I've rented rooms in houseshares for years and never say as much as a sight of paper work.

punisher5112

Op you have been well advised so move back into your home. Take up bedroom that others left.


You have then to give the person her marching orders.

You be better doing sooner then later if they are not paying rent god knows what apartment is like.

TheChizler

And just to reiterate check out the legality of that with a professional first!

TheChizler

TheChizler wrote: »

And just to reiterate check out the legality of that with a professional first!

If it was me I would just move in and not waste my time with checking anything out. The person living there has no rights to the other room nor have they exclusive rights to common areas. They basically have no card to play.

Lantus

Agree with above post. Get moved in and be as fair as you like. Give a month, week, or 24 hours as you please. If your 'tenant' gives you lip or attitude then reduce notice by 50% each time. Don't be treated as anything other than the rightful owner in your own home.

Technically she is trespassing.

davo10

Can a tenant legally be required to shift her tenancy from a situation where she is defined as a tenant to that of a licencee if the LL moves in? I'm not so sure, she rented the apartment as a tenant, that is what her contract will say.

davo10

davo10 wrote: »

Can a tenant legally be required to shift her tenancy from a situation where she is defined as a tenant to that of a licencee if the LL moves in? I'm not so sure, she rented the apartment as a tenant, that is what her contract will say.

She didn't rent the apartment, she rented a room.

davo10

Everleigh Hot Somehow wrote: »

She didn't rent the apartment, she rented a room.

Presumably it was a tenancy agreement rather than a licencee as the LL didn't live there.

athtrasna

davo10 wrote: »

Presumably it was a tenancy agreement rather than a licencee as the LL didn't live there.

That tenancy agreement has been terminated now though?

davo10

athtrasna wrote: »

That tenancy agreement has been terminated now though?

I understood from the op that it is being disputed. I'm not saying that the tenent is right, I'm saying that it may not be as easy as the op moving in and making it difficult for the tenent. It's unfortunate that LLs don't have more rights in these situations. Most likely this will be dragged out for months.

4ensic15

athtrasna wrote: »

That tenancy agreement has been terminated now though?

The only way a tenancy can be terminated is by the methods set out in the RTA.
RESIDENTIAL TENANCIES ACT 2004
58.—(1) From the relevant date, a tenancy of a dwelling may not be terminated by the landlord or the tenant by means of a notice of forfeiture, a re-entry or any other process or procedure not provided by this Part.

davo10

davo10 wrote: »

Presumably it was a tenancy agreement rather than a licencee as the LL didn't live there.

Its actually a bit of a grey area/up for debate. In some interpretations (including a prtb case) you are a licensee in a situation where rooms are rented separately from a LL even if he doesn't live there and as you don't have exclusive use of the property a LL can enter as he pleases etc.

This all goes back to a similar debate a while back in which I made the point that the LL has a spare room to that needs to be filled and the situation really cannot be that anyone in the world can move into that room bar the LL, it would be absolutely ridiculous if he couldn't move himself into a spare room but could move absolutely anyone else into it.

tommy100

Thanks again for all your comments. Just wondering how you all got your tenancy law knowledge.
Trying to keep my situation as civil and legal as possible, the prtb are a disgrace in how they treat LLs. I find that nobody is on the LL side.

I have been researching for a while on net about when a landlord moves in, does the tenant become a licensee there and then???is this a grey area or not??. I cant find any legal text in relation to this, except that if your living with OO, then your a licensee. 4ensic15, you have questioned this also.

Movin on, my solicitor has told me he sees no reason why i cannot move into the apartment. I have given the tenant notice to leave over 2 months ago, and have notified them a few times in the last few weeks to move out this weekend. So i am moving in tomorrow and i expect the tenant to move out. The tenant has no intention of movin out tho id say. Is their anyone on here, that can give me the gardai view on this situation, if it ends up getting messy. If tenant refuses to leave, can gardai evict tenant. Can i actually move their stuff outside the door and take the keys off them?? Is this legal???

tommy100

Tenant did have a fixed contract up until the start of this month. No contract now, just a rolling one

newacc2015

tommy100 wrote: »

Thanks again for all your comments. Just wondering how you all got your tenancy law knowledge.
Trying to keep my situation as civil and legal as possible, the prtb are a disgrace in how they treat LLs. I find that nobody is on the LL side.

I have been researching for a while on net about when a landlord moves in, does the tenant become a licensee there and then???is this a grey area or not??. I cant find any legal text in relation to this, except that if your living with OO, then your a licensee. 4ensic15, you have questioned this also.

Movin on, my solicitor has told me he sees no reason why i cannot move into the apartment. I have given the tenant notice to leave over 2 months ago, and have notified them a few times in the last few weeks to move out this weekend. So i am moving in tomorrow and i expect the tenant to move out. The tenant has no intention of movin out tho id say. Is their anyone on here, that can give me the gardai view on this situation, if it ends up getting messy. If tenant refuses to leave, can gardai evict tenant. Can i actually move their stuff outside the door and take the keys off them?? Is this legal???

Ireland doesnt really have a strong definition of what a tenancy or residence is. For example in California, if you received a letter at an address within the last 30 days. You are a resident. If you are a couple and split up, if you refuse to move out. Then your ex has to go to the local court to get you evicted. But thats the thing. An eviction is quick and easy unlike the PRTB.

The PRTB has changed the definition of what a tenancy is between rulings, so there isnt even consistency from them on it.

It is a civil issue. The Gardai wont get involved. I wouldnt move their stuff out. I think you are bordering on an illegal eviction possibly. I imagine the tenant will leave pretty quickly.

If I were you. I would have called a solicitor in the big five eg McCann Fitzgerald or Arthur Cox. They wont be cheap. But there is a handful of people in those firms dealing with these issues everyday.

quadrifoglio verde

If they're a licensee they've about as much rights as pigs going to slaughter
Actually pigs going to slaughter probably have more rights.

Move in, give her notice to leave as a licensee and if not turf her stuff out and change the locks

Or let her stay there for the next 12 months not paying rent, while you're stuck paying rent somewhere else and fighting with the prtb and then the courts to get her out

TheChizler

Be very careful OP, at least give a day extra between the eviction date and when you move in if that's what you've decided to do. Just so there's no ambiguity of when the eviction date passed.

I think you're taking a risk here. It might be fine or the PRTB might decide you acted illegally and fine you four figures. At least communicate with them before you make the move, show you're engaging, ask for their opinion.

Medications aren't too slow and you could show you are reasonable by agreeing that they could stay on as a licencee if you move in after the eviction date. If the PRTB agree that they are no longer a tenant then it would be a lot safer to get rid of them for not paying rent, than if you were to just throw them out the day you move in.

Mrs OBumble

tommy100 wrote: »

Is their anyone on here, that can give me the gardai view on this situation, if it ends up getting messy. If tenant refuses to leave, can gardai evict tenant. Can i actually move their stuff outside the door and take the keys off them?? Is this legal???

Only the guards can tell you their view - but typically they don't get involved in civil disputes. If you call them saying there's an intruder in your house, and then turn up to find that the intruder has been living there for months /years, I'd guess they won't be amused, and it's likely your phone number would go on their "troublesome-caller" list (or whatever they call it - I'm sure they have good/bad lists), which could affect the response if you need them for a real crime.

And I wouldn't advise just putting the tenant on the street: you never know what s/he or friends might do next if you piss them off that much - some very small acts on their part could do a LOT of damage to your property.

I know you want him/her out - but they do have to find somewhere else to go, and that's not as easy as it once was.

Also, if you put him / her on the street and that's followed by crime against them, it's you who will be painted in a bad light all over the media.

endacl

What's the situation if a landlord has legally terminated a tenancy, dissolving the landlord/tenant relationship, moves into the property, doesn't seek rent, making the ex-tenant essentially a non-paying guest? If they de-register with PRTB, and exit the landlord business, what remit would the PRTB have to do anything at all?

Lantus

Some good comments. Op has clarified he is OK to move into property immediately which he should do asap. Whose name are utilities in? Get them transferred to you asap if not already.

Depending on your style you could hold parties, play music, remove TV from lounge. Remove plates and cutelry etc. Basically cause disruption to the non rent paying leech so they tire and leave. I'd make sure you have a good lock on your bedroom door as they may retaliate.

Or subject to further clarification just give reasonable notice that they have x days to find somewhere new and after that date you are having all new licks fitted.

If you are legally entitled to move in then you are the rightful owner living in their property and therefore the other party is just a licencee and has zero rights. Any previous contract she had expired and it was only a room rent anyway.

You know the tenant and are best suited to how they will react. So play it nicely or not so nice but rember the relationship is one of parent and child and never be treated otherwise. Don't be submissive or back down. If you want to have a run and flop out all sweaty or change channel do it. Your house your rules, at all times.

I would also print off a bug sheet of house rules and pin to back of front door and her door like no guests, no music, and you have x days before locks are changed. Throw out any guests on the spot. Plan for these eventualities before and what you will do.

4ensic15

newacc2015 wrote: »

If I were you. I would have called a solicitor in the big five eg McCann Fitzgerald or Arthur Cox. They wont be cheap. But there is a handful of people in those firms dealing with these issues everyday.

They won't have a handful of people dealing with these issues every day! They are unlikely to have even one. This kind of work doesn't pay. Some of the big five wouldn't even take the o/p as a client for any type of work at all, as they do no private client work. The cost of going to the big 5 would be more than the fine for an illegal eviction if it ever came to it.
Most of the legal profession are woefully ignorant of the RTA. A barrister was asked by a judge in court the other day if a landlord couldn't bring an action for ejectment in the District Court. The barrister had to tell him that an action for ejectment had been abolished in 2005 in respect of tenancies comprehended by the RTA.
Eversheds who have the contract with the PRTB might have some expertise and the barrsiters they use and one or two others who appear in the courts in PRTB cases (a small handful) as well as those who are adjudicators or sit on the board of the PRTB.
The o/p should move in, and establish himself, get name on all utility bills etc, have his car parked overnight there etc and then change the locks. When the former tenant comes back he can pass out his bags to the former tenant.

quadrifoglio verde

4ensic15 wrote: »

They won't have a handful of people dealing with these issues every day! They are unlikely to have even one. This kind of work doesn't pay. Some of the big five wouldn't even take the o/p as a client for any type of work at all, as they do no private client work. The cost of going to the big 5 would be more than the fine for an illegal eviction if it ever came to it.
Most of the legal profession are woefully ignorant of the RTA. A barrister was asked by a judge in court the other day if a landlord couldn't bring an action for ejectment in the District Court. The barrister had to tell him that an action for ejectment had been abolished in 2005 in respect of tenancies comprehended by the RTA.
Eversheds who have the contract with the PRTB might have some expertise and the barrsiters they use and one or two others who appear in the courts in PRTB cases (a small handful) as well as those who are adjudicators or sit on the board of the PRTB.
The o/p should move in, and establish himself, get name on all utility bills etc, have his car parked overnight there etc and then change the locks. When the former tenant comes back he can pass out his bags to the former tenant.

The cost of doing a legal eviction including loss of rent, is probably more or close to equal to an illegal eviction if it does go against you with a good bit less stress

Broken system is broken

4ensic15

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

The cost of doing a legal eviction including loss of rent, is probably more or close to equal to an illegal eviction if it does go against you with a good bit less stress

Broken system is broken

The max in an illegal eviction is 20k. Rarely does it reach that level. Most cases are 3k. The stress of a legal eviction is dreadful. Landlords don't know when it will end or if the tenant will go.

Lantus

Why consult an expensive solicitor when asking the prtb is free?

Anyway, the confusion is predominantly the word tenant. This is a legal term which describes a person who rents an entire property from the owner or landlord for an agreed time period. A licencee rents a room or portion of property and they are not covered by the prtb or tenancies act. Read leases vs licences on the prtb website and sharing accommodation with your landlord on citizens advice.com if not already done so.

Fiona

I don't see what the problem is, you have terminated the tenancy within the guidelines of the law as you want to move back into your own home which you are legally entitled to do.

I would advise the PRTB of the current situation and of your proposed intentions.

Then I would wait a week after the eviction date specified in your termination notice and I would move back into the property.

I would deregister from the PRTB, I would contact the Revenue to advise them that you are back in your family home and are no longer self assessed for taxation purposes.

I would then take over all the bills in your own name and then just change the locks and remove the other persons belongings or else you could leave them there and call the Garda and tell them there is an intruder in your house.

You have fulfilled your legal obligations tough if they want to stay its your home and you gave them the correct notice to vacate as set out by the PRTB.

4ensic15

Fiona wrote: »

I don't see what the problem is, you have terminated the tenancy within the guidelines of the law as you want to move back into your own home which you are legally entitled to do.

The law is not about guidelines. The law is the law. There is only one method of termination allowed.

Fiona wrote: »

I would advise the PRTB of the current situation and of your proposed intentions.

The PRTB is not an advice service and the staff of the PRTB can't and won't authorise any action.

Fiona wrote: »

Then I would wait a week after the eviction date specified in your termination notice and I would move back into the property.

If a termiantion notice is not complied with a landlord has to initiate a dispute with the PRTB. Self help is not allowed.

Fiona wrote: »

I would deregister from the PRTB, I would contact the Revenue to advise them that you are back in your family home and are no longer self assessed for taxation purposes.

Fiona wrote: »

I would then take over all the bills in your own name and then just change the locks and remove the other persons belongings or else you could leave them there and call the Garda and tell them there is an intruder in your house.

The Guards will not get involved in a civil matter.

Fiona wrote: »

You have fulfilled your legal obligations tough if they want to stay its your home and you gave them the correct notice to vacate as set out by the PRTB.

It is arguable that the o/p has not fulfilled his legal obligations. It all depends on what view is taken of the original agreement. If he created a registrable tenancy he can't just change the locks. If it was never a tenancy he could.

slowjoe17

OP, did you resolve the situation here?

the_syco

slowjoe17 wrote: »

OP, did you resolve the situation here?

Their new thread; licensèe/Tenant belongings furnishings removal

Fiona

4ensic15 wrote: »

The law is not about guidelines. The law is the law. There is only one method of termination allowed.

If he serves the notice in the correct manner than what is the problem, just because a person doesn't want to move out doesn't mean you can hold a person ransom for wanting to move back into their own home.

I rented out my apt to somebody for a number of years, I served the notice on them that I wanted to move back and then they handed over the keys on the agreed date but if they didn't they would have been turfed out plain and simple my house I gave you adequate notice time to vacate.

4ensic15

Fiona wrote: »

If he serves the notice in the correct manner than what is the problem, just because a person doesn't want to move out doesn't mean you can hold a person ransom for wanting to move back into their own home.

I rented out my apt to somebody for a number of years, I served the notice on them that I wanted to move back and then they handed over the keys on the agreed date but if they didn't they would have been turfed out plain and simple my house I gave you adequate notice time to vacate.

If the person doesn't vacate, there is an overholding dispute. Change the locks and the tenant will go to the PRTB and claim an illegal eviction. Giving notice does not mean rights to change locks accrue when the notice expires.

Greenmachine

OP are you planning on moving into the property for a.your exclusive use or b. owner/occupier rent a room type situation.
If a. you have a stronger case for getting the tenant out, as you have a legally recognised cause on which to effect, a terminate of any lease fixed term or not provided adequate notice is served. In the case of b. you are in more uncertain territory from what I can tell as you are trying to implement a substantially materially change to the terms to the agreement in place.

Greenmachine

Greenmachine wrote: »

OP are you planning on moving into the property for a.your exclusive use or b. owner/occupier rent a room type situation.
If a. you have a stronger case for getting the tenant out, as you have a legally recognised cause on which to effect, a terminate of any lease fixed term or not provided adequate notice is served. In the case of b. you are in more uncertain territory from what I can tell as you are trying to implement a substantially materially change to the terms to the agreement in place.

I don't think it makes any difference. If he rents out a room it's not something that will be highlighted as there is no requirement to register or make it known to anybody.

That's said if that's the plan I'd give it a few weeks till the previous tenant has properly moved on as I would be telling them that the plan is to move in with exclusive use in order to make getting them gone easier.