Why do we blame our politicians for everything

Shermanator

Why do we elect politicians and then blame them for everything. Lets be honest about it. We know before we elect them that they are useless anyway. The only reason we elect them is because we have to elect someone and they are the only ones going for the job.

It doesn't really matter who we vote in anyway. The country is still going to be run by the same bunch of useless Civil Servants. Most of these Civil Servants are answerable to no one and have mostly achieved their position from either political cronyism or have been promoted within the job from seniority more so than ability.

NomadicGray

You answered your own question there in a roundabout way.

Shermanator

NomadicGray wrote: »

You answered your own question there in a roundabout way.

Comes from talking to myself a lot

crusier

Is it too much to expect a politican to emerge to take charge of the civil servants, it's also just as easy blame the civil servants if you are a failed politican which most are!

Godge

Shermanator wrote: »

Why do we elect politicians and then blame them for everything. Lets be honest about it. We know before we elect them that they are useless anyway. The only reason we elect them is because we have to elect someone and they are the only ones going for the job.

It doesn't really matter who we vote in anyway. The country is still going to be run by the same bunch of useless Civil Servants. Most of these Civil Servants are answerable to no one and have mostly achieved their position from either political cronyism or have been promoted within the job from seniority more so than ability.

Do you have a link to back up your statement that the civil servants "have mostly achieved their position from either political cronyism or have been promoted within the job from seniority more so than ability"?

http://www.cpsa.ie/en/


Refer to the above website for suitable material to back up your answer.

saltsun

With the exception of Revenue (who may be watching... ) a lot of "services" (Govt depts) are poorly run. That was the case during the CT and it's similar now. So people head for their local TD of choice to sort out some jobsworth (and they DO exist) who's seen fit to refuse them this, that or the other - for good or bad reason doesn't matter.

When you couple the poor service with the Irish culture of "moi roites loike".......

Fix the services, and the rest will take care of itself, politicians can get on with making law instead of fixing potholes or sorting out said jobsworth.

But I do find myself wondering, do they WANT to sort out the services, would it make them less relevant come election time. God forbid John & Mary got their medical card without making the procession to the local fixers office.

Godge

saltsun wrote: »

With the exception of Revenue (who may be watching... ) a lot of "services" (Govt depts) are poorly run. That was the case during the CT and it's similar now. So people head for their local TD of choice to sort out some jobsworth (and they DO exist) who's seen fit to refuse them this, that or the other - for good or bad reason doesn't matter.

When you couple the poor service with the Irish culture of "moi roites loike".......

Fix the services, and the rest will take care of itself, politicians can get on with making law instead of fixing potholes or sorting out said jobsworth.

But I do find myself wondering, do they WANT to sort out the services, would it make them less relevant come election time. God forbid John & Mary got their medical card without making the procession to the local fixers office.

Which particular services are poorly run by the civil service?

Passport Office? Social Welfare Offices?

What evidence do you have to back it up, especially international comparisons?

People throw these things out all the time like they're self-evidence but they never have any real evidence.

jungleman

We blame politicians because some of the time they are to blame. Not all of the time, but sometimes.

How many politicians do you think really have the best interests of the people at heart? There have been loads of examples with FG/Labour of the actual disdain they have for the people they represent.

Back in the "good times", when FF were in power, the M3 motorway was being built from Cavan to Dublin. Noel Dempsey, minister for Transport at the time, was my local TD in Meath and responsible for the construction and implementation of the M3. Kells to Dublin is a forty mile stretch of road. Yet there are two tolls on that road. Is that fair? Does that show the people's interests were at heart?

To boot, if the tolls don't make the projected earnings for the motorway construction company, the balance is coughed up by people's taxes. So if you use the motorway or not, you are being screwed, thanks to Noel Dempsey and FF.

We blame our politicians because around election time, they feign empathy with the people, they make promises they have no intention of keeping, and they generally lie through their teeth. Then, once elected, they are safe in the knowledge that they have their nice salary and bumper pension to look forward to.

As you kind of hinted in your OP, it's the system that's broken really. But that doesn't absolve the politicians of blame. They're more than happy to work the system and benefit from it.

jungleman

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jungleman

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saltsun

Godge wrote: »

Which particular services are poorly run by the civil service?

Passport Office? Social Welfare Offices?

What evidence do you have to back it up, especially international comparisons?

People throw these things out all the time like they're self-evidence but they never have any real evidence.

Not going to identify as I have to work with them regularly, specific examples will easily identify me. Doesn't concern me if you don't believe me.

I have used the passport office and had no issue with them.

In other EU member states there is a much less confrontational/adversarial attitude in similar departments.

The buck stops with no one, no one will own a decision, and often pass important questions from a to b to c to answerphone/ring out/don't call back. That is from front line to section chief level.

If the systems worked correctly there would be much less emphasis on politicians quite simply because people would have less problems. But no one can be held to account, and they all get paid regardless of performance, or lack of.

Jim2007

Shermanator wrote: »

The only reason we elect them is because we have to elect someone and they are the only ones going for the job.

And the primary reason for this is that people don't get involved! We blame politicians because it's easier than accepting responsibility for our own actions or more to the point in action! You want change, then join a party, advocate policy, campaign, take part in nominations, even run for nomination.... If you don't participate then you have little to complain about.

Jack Killian

Jim2007 wrote: »

And the primary reason for this is that people don't get involved! We blame politicians because it's easier than accepting responsibility for our own actions or more to the point in action! You want change, then join a party, advocate policy, campaign, take part in nominations, even run for nomination.... If you don't participate then you have little to complain about.

Catch 22 there. Given what passes for political debate and policy and discussion - be it on a politics show or on Oireachtas TV - anyone who actually wants to achieve something and change things for the better would lose their mind dealing with the juvenile petty snipes and idiocy every day.

Shermanator

Shermanator wrote: »

Why do we elect politicians and then blame them for everything. Lets be honest about it. We know before we elect them that they are useless anyway. The only reason we elect them is because we have to elect someone and they are the only ones going for the job.

It doesn't really matter who we vote in anyway. The country is still going to be run by the same bunch of useless Civil Servants. Most of these Civil Servants are answerable to no one and have mostly achieved their position from either political cronyism or have been promoted within the job from seniority more so than ability.

Some take responsibility for their own lives and get on with living.
Others expect everything to be done for them and complain when reality sets in, but still fail to see that they are the ones responsible for themselves.

Not sure what your point is re Civil Servants other than good old begrudgery.

Jack Killian

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Some take responsibility for their own lives and get on with living.

Are you casting false aspersions again, Maryanne ? There are indeed some people like that, however you seem to default to that false assumption about anyone who queries your beloved party and highlights its incompetence and/or corruption.

It used to annoy me when FG and their followers did that, but now I just laugh at it because it reveals that they haven't a clue and are just throwing sh1t at people in a pathetic attempt to discredit them because of their own failings and insecurities and an inability to justify their stance.

For the record - even though I don't need to explain myself - I take responsibility for my life and my decisions, work hard, give decent value-for-money expert service. live within my means and did not "go mad", ever!

FG like to pretend I don't exist in order to maintain their self-delusion.

Jack Killian

Jack Killian wrote: »

Are you casting false aspersions again, Maryanne ? There are indeed some people like that, however you seem to default to that false assumption about anyone who queries your beloved party and highlights its incompetence and/or corruption.

It used to annoy me when FG and their followers did that, but now I just laugh at it because it reveals that they haven't a clue and are just throwing sh1t at people in a pathetic attempt to discredit them because of their own failings and insecurities and an inability to justify their stance.

For the record - even though I don't need to explain myself - I take responsibility for my life and my decisions, work hard, give decent value-for-money expert service. live within my means and did not "go mad", ever!

FG like to pretend I don't exist in order to maintain their self-delusion.

Where did I say that ONLY FGers take responsibility for their own lives???? There is incompetence in every section of society, no matter what their Political affiliation!
(Glad to see you live within your means and never went mad!)

Jack Killian

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Where did I say that ONLY FGers take responsibility for their own lives???? There is incompetence in every section of society, no matter what their Political affiliation!
(Glad to see you live within your means and never went mad!)

I didn't say that you said that. :rolleyes: Don't misrepresent me, and please read carefully so that you can comprehend what is said.

I said that FGers always try to tar those who challenge them with that type of rubbish, implying that it's only whingers and layabouts who object to what they do.

That said, and to be fair, FF used to do the same, as immortalised by Ahern in his infamous "suicide" speech.

Two cheeks of the same arse.

Jack Killian

Jack Killian wrote: »

I didn't say that you said that. :rolleyes: Don't misrepresent me, and please read carefully so that you can comprehend what is said.

I said that FGers always try to tar those who challenge them with that type of rubbish, implying that it's only whingers and layabouts who object to what they do.

That said, and to be fair, FF used to do the same, as immortalised by Ahern in his infamous "suicide" speech.

Two cheeks of the same arse.

Classy

Jack Killian

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Classy

So you object to the tone / phrasing of it, but not the truth of it ?

Compared to the "ye all went mad" and the "spongers" and every other snide derogatory remark from FG as they stuck the knife into the ordinary decent hardworking people of "middle Ireland" and made us pay Dinny's Discounts bills, I'd say my phrasing is merely treating like with like.....

Actually, I'd go one further; because mine's true whereas their utterances are fiction and delusion.

twowheelsonly

The politicians of the day make the policies, the Civil Service /Public Service implement those policies. That's why we blame the politicians. Pawning it off on 'useless' Civil Servants, as you do, is exactly what politicians lke to hear.

saltsun wrote: »

Not going to identify as I have to work with them regularly, specific examples will easily identify me. Doesn't concern me if you don't believe me.

.

Would you not have the courage of your convictions to speak out or do you prefer to hide behind a keyboard ??? If you feel so strongly about something you should bring it to the attention of those who can effect change. You do realise that by not doing so then you're part of the problem....

glacial_pace71

jungleman wrote: »

We blame politicians because some of the time they are to blame. Not all of the time, but sometimes.

How many politicians do you think really have the best interests of the people at heart? There have been loads of examples with FG/Labour of the actual disdain they have for the people they represent.

Back in the "good times", when FF were in power, the M3 motorway was being built from Cavan to Dublin. Noel Dempsey, minister for Transport at the time, was my local TD in Meath and responsible for the construction and implementation of the M3. Kells to Dublin is a forty mile stretch of road. Yet there are two tolls on that road. Is that fair? Does that show the people's interests were at heart?

To boot, if the tolls don't make the projected earnings for the motorway construction company, the balance is coughed up by people's taxes. So if you use the motorway or not, you are being screwed, thanks to Noel Dempsey and FF.

We blame our politicians because around election time, they feign empathy with the people, they make promises they have no intention of keeping, and they generally lie through their teeth. Then, once elected, they are safe in the knowledge that they have their nice salary and bumper pension to look forward to.

As you kind of hinted in your OP, it's the system that's broken really. But that doesn't absolve the politicians of blame. They're more than happy to work the system and benefit from it.

You'll recall that Noel Dempsey was Minister for Education. By sheer coincidence the National Council for Special Education (NCSE) was re-located to Trim. Quite apart from the OPW relocating there. (Yes, Noel Dempsey was Minister for the Environment at one stage too).

There are plenty of people who can point to some achievement in the broader national interest, like Dempsey and the M3, as being done in the face of strenuous local opposition, and that their Minister held his nerve for national over constituency interests. However, once you look at any Minister's record inevitably there's been kidnapping of public servants, grants lavished on the basic of constituency rather than eligibility criteria and so forth. The amounts aren't small either, e.g. of Cullen's 1,001 lane motorway to Waterford that would only be justified on population and traffic volumes if they somehow towed Cork there instead. (And for politicians' mantra that capital expenditure is infrastructural investment often doesn't match with the facts: sometimes it's more akin to the Victorian-era Congested Districts Board of providing welfare, though the construction firms certainly don't complain).

In short, even when politicians attempt to do the right thing they generate cynicism as much as when they don't, as there's usually something else in play as part of the overall political bargain.

On the original post of blaming politicians? Read the Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924. Then read the Public Service Management Act 1997 (e.g. for the respective responsibilities of Minister and Secretary General in a Govt Dept). It's too easy for politicians to dive for cover when cutbacks they've sanctioned result in the loss of eligibility for a particular benefit. It's why a lot of complaints to the Ombudsman or Ombudsman for Children are unsuccessful, as ultimately it's found that the civil servant applied the criteria fairly, but that the politician had overpromised their constituent or had engaged in some elaborate theatrical game of leading a delegation when they'd already gone through the Dáil lobbies and voted for the expenditure to be curtailed only weeks earlier. Similarly, the 'Protected Disclosures' whistleblowing legislation will struggle: it's not like a financial institution with Ruznak-type transactions being covered up - it's more like a range of potential outcomes, much of which turn on the policy decisions made by politicians, no matter how much they try to distance themselves from the effects.

saltsun

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Would you not have the courage of your convictions to speak out or do you prefer to hide behind a keyboard ??? If you feel so strongly about something you should bring it to the attention of those who can effect change. You do realise that by not doing so then you're part of the problem....

Serious yawn.

I am happy with my actions away from keyboards to further the things I believe in, which have been quite successful.

Thomas_..

Shermanator wrote: »

Why do we elect politicians and then blame them for everything. Lets be honest about it. We know before we elect them that they are useless anyway. The only reason we elect them is because we have to elect someone and they are the only ones going for the job.

It doesn't really matter who we vote in anyway. The country is still going to be run by the same bunch of useless Civil Servants. Most of these Civil Servants are answerable to no one and have mostly achieved their position from either political cronyism or have been promoted within the job from seniority more so than ability.

Normally they should be answerable to the Irish State. Well, of course the state is politically run by the elected politicians.