'Hogging' of Fast Chargers

stesaurus

OK something that's come up a few times on the FB group and wanted to get opinion here. It can get pretty heated and seems to be a large divide among the community.
People who charge above 80% on FCP's are they hogging? Or is there a right of first come first served and then they are entitled to the charger for as long as they want.
I'm using 80% as an arbitrary figure as most people understand that's where the charging tends to taper off a lot and slow down rapidly. We can probably ignore Zoe users here and just discuss this more in terms of DC charging cars.

shanemkelly

Yes, I've come across this a few times. Some polite inquiries later and it was obvious that my fellow Leaf driver was oblivious to the "tapering off after 80%", but continued to charge up to 100% with a "...that's an interesting fact..." demeanor.

Anyway, I'd subscribe to the "only fast-charge what you need, up to 80%"... I think the "first come, first served" attitude is a selfish one when at a FCP.

shanemkelly

Yes, I've come across this a few times. Some polite inquiries later and it was obvious that my fellow Leaf driver was oblivious to the "tapering off after 80%", but continued to charge up to 100% with a "...that's an interesting fact..." demeanor.

Anyway, I'd subscribe to the "only fast-charge what you need, up to 80%"... I think the "first come, first served" attitude is a selfish one when at a FCP.

stesaurus

shanemkelly wrote: »

Yes, I've come across this a few times. Some polite inquiries later and it was obvious that my fellow Leaf driver was oblivious to the "tapering off after 80%", but continued to charge up to 100% with a "...that's an interesting fact..." demeanor.

Anyway, I'd subscribe to the "only fast-charge what you need, up to 80%"... I think the "first come, first served" attitude is a selfish one when at a FCP.

That's an excellent point about people being oblivious. I guess i automatically assume early adopters are up to speed on their knowledge of how this all works but there's many that probably don't.
Maybe that's a failing of dealerships or eCars as this is very new technology to people and maybe they need to be given more guidance on how chargers work before being let loose.

cros13

I sometimes need to charge beyond 100% to be able to reach the next CCS rapid. That's a failing of ESBs network.

I try to stick around the charger while I'm charging but occasionally need to pop away for a call of nature or to grab something to eat. I'm always back at the car before it reaches 80%.

One thing I would like to ask Leaf owners to do is if an i3, Model S or Zoe comes along please give them access to the AC side. I've seen a few times where Leaf owners have refused to move because they are "next in the queue" despite the fact that cars who can use the AC side can charge at the same time as a Leaf is on the DC.

Even with an i3, in the time it takes for a Leaf to charge i could have 20-25% charged from the AC and shorten the time everyone is waiting around for considerably.

stesaurus

cros13 wrote: »

I sometimes need to charge beyond 100% to be able to reach the next CCS rapid. That's a failing of ESBs network.

I try to stick around the charger while I'm charging but occasionally need to pop away for a call of nature or to grab something to eat. I'm always back at the car before it reaches 80%.

One thing I would like to ask Leaf owners to do is if an i3, Model S or Zoe comes along please give them access to the AC side. I've seen a few times where Leaf owners have refused to move because they are "next in the queue" despite the fact that cars who can use the AC side can charge at the same time as a Leaf is on the DC.

Even with an i3, in the time it takes for a Leaf to charge i could have 20-25% charged from the AC and shorten the time everyone is waiting around for considerably.

Wow, really? That's kind of unforgivable and would drive me demented. Glad I haven't come across that.

Quick question on using AC. When someone is using the DC side there doesn't appear to be anything on screen that you can do, other than ending their charge. Do you need to select AC from the screen or can you just plug in the cable and it starts?

cros13

s.welstead wrote: »

Wow, really? That's kind of unforgivable and would drive me demented. Glad I haven't come across that.

Quick question on using AC. When someone is using the DC side there doesn't appear to be anything on screen that you can do, other than ending their charge. Do you need to select AC from the screen or can you just plug in the cable and it starts?

It depends on the rapid. On the efacec QC45s (the box like triple head) you will get the option of AC43 when you present your card and someone is already charging on the DC side.

On the DBT... I'm not sure... I've used AC on a DBT but never while anyone else was charging.

Note that on the i3 you'll need a recent software release on the charge controller to charge from AC43 (of course still only at 7.4kW).

Rafal

cros13 wrote: »

It depends on the rapid. On the efacec QC45s (the box like triple head) you will get the option of AC43 when you present your card and someone is already charging on the DC side.

On the DBT... I'm not sure... I've used AC on a DBT but never while anyone else was charging.

Note that on the i3 you'll need a recent software release on the charge controller to charge from AC43 (of course still only at 7.4kW).

I can confirm that when I had the i3 on the weekend test drive we were able to charge using the AC side of the newer ESB chargers (Tesco Bray) while a Leaf was using Chademo. After using the card, the charger offered the option of AC43 only, so it had the sharing logic in its software.

By the way, there was a 2nd Leaf politely queuing in a bay away from the two charger bays, leaving the bay available for our i3.

The current electric cars were never designed for an above 80% charge however the 30 kwh leaf charges nearly 4 times faster above 80% it just so happens that it will still take time due to the battery having more kwh.

At 80% the 30 Kwh is still charging at close to 30Kw compared to my 151 8 or 9 kw.

I'm not sure on the 30 kwh how fast it drops off at about 85% +.

Hogging chargers is really inconsiderate , If I am charging and and I leave the car I have a note on the dash with my number or a "you can plug me out" on the other side if I don't need the charge and make sure the lock is not engaged if I can't be contacted or can't get back in time which is rare.

I've come across some really bad attitude from some people at the Naas charger it just goes to show that some people will do what they want because they can and don't care if someone needs a charge or not as long as they get the free electricity then nothing else matters.

I think it's great that the 30 Kwh charges a lot faster and it also makes much better use of the 45 kw chargers instead of the power tapering down so early and as batteries get larger, for instance the 60 Kwh leaf that's due at the end of 2017 , then an 80 % charge will take much, much longer and at this point there needs to be multiple chargers on one site. There is strong rumors that leaf II will charge at 100 Kw possibly more which will be needed by this time. But the ESB won't install 100 + Kw chargers until the cars that can charge at this rate are on the road.

foodaholic

cros13 wrote: »

One thing I would like to ask Leaf owners to do is if an i3, Model S or Zoe comes along please give them access to the AC side. I've seen a few times where Leaf owners have refused to move because they are "next in the queue" despite the fact that cars who can use the AC side can charge at the same time as a Leaf is on the DC

It's happened to me a few times. The leafer blocking it wouldn't move to let me charge

shanemkelly

Deleted User wrote: »

I've come across some really bad attitude from some people at the Naas charger it just goes to show that some people will do what they want because they can and don't care if someone needs a charge or not as long as they get the free electricity then nothing else matters.

I think that's the point; FCPs should be seen as a necessity, and not simply a convenience or, worse still, an opportunity.
I too use the Naas FCP (once/twice per month) while visiting the Monread Shopping Centre but only if I need it for the onward journey. As soon as I get the "80% charged e-mail", I'm straight out to move the car regardless if anyone's waiting for a charge. I also have the ChargeBump note visible but I've never "bumped nor been bumped", (so to speak :eek:).

It would be better than great if there was some sort of "eCar Charging Etiquette" circulated with all eCars sold...

foodaholic wrote: »

It's happened to me a few times. The leafer blocking it wouldn't move to let me charge

Now THAT'S unforgivable! WTF people??? :mad:
I'd love to know the Leafer's thinking behind that situation...

foodaholic

[quote=

Now THAT'S unforgivable! WTF people??? :mad:
I'd love to know the Leafer's thinking behind that situation...[/quote]


He was next in the que, not me. Even though I tried to explain that I could charge at the same time as the other leaf. He wouldn't budge

foodaholic

[quote=

Now THAT'S unforgivable! WTF people??? :mad:
I'd love to know the Leafer's thinking behind that situation...[/quote]


He was next in the que, not me. Even though I tried to explain that I could charge at the same time as the other leaf. He wouldn't budge

DrPhilG

I'll say the same thing here as I have on the Facebook group.

Hogging of FCPs is not a question of entitlement, it's a question of manners.

Of course the first person there has the right to charge as long as they want. But it's plain bad manners to do so.

Of course there are occasionally instances where you need to go over 80%. If I'm heading to Dublin I'll usually go to about 95% at Monaghan so that I can reach Applegreen Lusk in one go. But if someone else arrived and needed in, I would go at 80% and just make an extra stop at Applegreen Castlebellingham.

However the usual issue is that someone is in no hurry, and is so keen to save a € or 2 that they don't give a damn that they're holding up someone else who actually needs it.

As for the Leaf and Zoe coexistence, I recently met a Zoe driver in Derry who was politely waiting behind me to charge. I explained to him that both could charge, and let him plug in while I was there so we could test that it worked.

He told me that he had been advised by a Leaf driver the previous week that 2 cars charging was not possible and they made him wait nearly an hour while they went to 100%.

Whether that lady was oblivious to the joint charging or deliberately lied for fear that his charge would slow hers down is anybody's guess.

stesaurus

foodaholic wrote: »

He was next in the que, not me. Even though I tried to explain that I could charge at the same time as the other leaf. He wouldn't budge

My blood is boiling just thinking of that situation, what an asshole.

DrPhilG wrote: »

I'll say the same thing here as I have on the Facebook group.

Hogging of FCPs is not a question of entitlement, it's a question of manners.

Of course the first person there has the right to charge as long as they want. But it's plain bad manners to do so.

Of course there are occasionally instances where you need to go over 80%. If I'm heading to Dublin I'll usually go to about 95% at Monaghan so that I can reach Applegreen Lusk in one go. But if someone else arrived and needed in, I would go at 80% and just make an extra stop at Applegreen Castlebellingham.

However the usual issue is that someone is in no hurry, and is so keen to save a € or 2 that they don't give a damn that they're holding up someone else who actually needs it.

As for the Leaf and Zoe coexistence, I recently met a Zoe driver in Derry who was politely waiting behind me to charge. I explained to him that both could charge, and let him plug in while I was there so we could test that it worked.

He told me that he had been advised by a Leaf driver the previous week that 2 cars charging was not possible and they made him wait nearly an hour while they went to 100%.

Whether that lady was oblivious to the joint charging or deliberately lied for fear that his charge would slow hers down is anybody's guess.

I don't think you can rely on manners to govern the use though. In an ideal world we wouldn't need speed limits and people could be trusted to pick the correct max for the situation they're in. Unfortunately the real world means we need to provide for the lowest common denominator type person and stick a one size fits all situation in.
I think unfortunately the FCP's need that too as even with less than 1500 users we're seeing a high level of selfishness and also a lack of knowledge. eCars charging by the minute is a punitive way of enforcing people to only spend the time they need. It will work but obviously won't suit everyone.

foodaholic

foodaholic wrote: »

He was next in the que, not me. Even though I tried to explain that I could charge at the same time as the other leaf. He wouldn't budge

If anyone tries to prevent you from charging, report them to the ESB. Get their reg number, this is despicable behavior.

If a Leaf owner is waiting on another leaf to finish then that's their problem. They need to move and wait for the other Leaf to finish.

I met a lady at Naas QC a while back in a Zoe and she had 2 Children with her, there was a man charging before me and I was in the other space and she asked how long I'd be , she wasn't aware you could charge the Zoe and Leaf together until I told her, so I moved and let her in. She was delighted she was made aware of this.

The ESB do need at least 2 DC at this point in time. The longer they ignore this the worse people will get at charge points.

I also believe the free electricity significantly contributes to this behavior.

Sesshoumaru

80% in my 5 year old Leaf would not be sufficient if I were to attempt a long journey again. My cars battery pack has lost capacity. My 5 year old Leaf also only has a 3.3kw on-board charger so charging the last 20% at an SCP will definitely not be as fast as charging at a chademo fast charger.

But as an early adopter I always left my mobile on the dash clearly visible and the few times I've been asked, I've told people to unplug my car. These days its not a concern for me. I wouldn't bother attempting a long journey anymore, especially not with kids in the car. It's not very unlikely you'll get stuck at a queue or an FCP will be out of order. We've had the Leaf just under 5 years now and it's a great car, but I'll stick to short journeys in it. Although saying that, we can still easily manage 300 kilometers of driving at the weekend. We just wouldn't go much further than the greater Dublin area / Kildare.

I do look forward to 60kWh battery packs. Alternatively I might consider a PHEV for a while until I can buy something decent like a Tesla Model 3. If Tesla expand their Supercharger network to Ireland, having access to a private charging network not operated by the ESB would be a major bonus point for me.

Sesshoumaru

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

80% in my 5 year old Leaf would not be sufficient if I were to attempt a long journey again. My cars battery pack has lost capacity. My 5 year old Leaf also only has a 3.3kw on-board charger so charging the last 20% at an SCP will definitely not be as fast as charging at a chademo fast charger.

But as an early adopter I always left my mobile on the dash clearly visible and the few times I've been asked, I've told people to unplug my car. These days its not a concern for me. I wouldn't bother attempting a long journey anymore, especially not with kids in the car. It's not very unlikely you'll get stuck at a queue or an FCP will be out of order. We've had the Leaf just under 5 years now and it's a great car, but I'll stick to short journeys in it. Although saying that, we can still easily manage 300 kilometers of driving at the weekend. We just wouldn't go much further than the greater Dublin area / Kildare.

I do look forward to 60kWh battery packs. Alternatively I might consider a PHEV for a while until I can buy something decent like a Tesla Model 3. If Tesla expand their Supercharger network to Ireland, having access to a private charging network not operated by the ESB would be a major bonus point for me.

The battery is much more durable in the July built 2013+ leafs.

Over 30,000 Kms my leaf is showing no loss of capacity, granted it's only a year but even 141 Leafs are showing clear signs of improvement.

The 60 kwh will make a big difference so too will 100+ Kw charging.

There are only 4 planned super chargers for Ireland and they were to be installed last year.

Sesshoumaru

Deleted User wrote: »

The battery is much more durable in the July built 2013+ leafs.

Over 30,000 Kms my leaf is showing no loss of capacity, granted it's only a year but even 141 Leafs are showing clear signs of improvement.

The 60 kwh will make a big difference so too will 100+ Kw charging.

There are only 4 planned super chargers for Ireland and they were to be installed last year.

Oh I know, I follow these things like a hawk. Technology improves all the time and at an accelerating rate. I knew when I bought collected my car in April 2011 it wouldn't be long before it's obsolete.

What I am happy about though is that the price per kWh seems to be moving in the right direction even faster than I thought it would back in 2011.

http://insideevs.com/lg-chem-ticked-gm-disclosing-145kwh-battery-cell-pricing-video/

I'm very positive about the future of BEV vehicles, they are the future. We just have a very poor grid and EV charging infrastructure in Ireland. Can anyone currently imagine any useful & practical location in Ireland supporting more than one triple standard FCP? You'd be dreaming to even think of the new standard chademo!

My kids won't be kids forever (it would be nice to do long journeys again with them), so that's why I'm thinking of a PHEV to tide me over until a true next generation BEV becomes available in UK/Ireland. Thereby somewhat freeing me from the current debilitating dependency on FCP charging. My ideal next generation BEV would also not only be able to use the 40kw + FCP's, but also the 20kw SCP's, like the Zoe can currently. So that would probably be a Tesla Model 3 with double on-board chargers, supercharger enabled and a Tesla chademo adapter in the boot!

Sesshoumaru

Just thinking about this now, the new 30kWh Leaf while not really much of a capacity improvement, does utilise the FCP's much better. When we've got a few more of these cars on the road are we going to see posts asking owners of older generation Leafs to stop hogging the FCP's with their degraded and slower charging battery packs?

Sesshoumaru

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I'm very positive about the future of BEV vehicles, they are the future. We just have a very poor grid and EV charging infrastructure in Ireland. Can anyone currently imagine any useful & practical location in Ireland supporting more than one triple standard FCP? You'd be dreaming to even think of the new standard chademo!

My kids won't be kids forever (it would be nice to do long journeys again with them), so that's why I'm thinking of a PHEV to tide me over until a true next generation BEV becomes available in UK/Ireland. Thereby somewhat freeing me from the current debilitating dependency on FCP charging. My ideal next generation BEV would also not only be able to use the 40kw + FCP's, but also the 20kw SCP's, like the Zoe can currently. So that would probably be a Tesla Model 3 with double on-board chargers, supercharger enabled and a Tesla chademo adapter in the boot!

The Model 3 will cost around the same price as a 3 series or a high spec A4, I estimate 38-45 K after taxes.

The 60 Kwh Leaf will be here first and it's unlikely the Bolt will become available in Ireland at least it's for now highly doubtful even when it reaches full production there are no Chevy dealers any more here. Of course you can always import one from the U.K but you got a real problem if it needs to be repaired.

The Irish Government is not in the slightest bit environmentally conscious and it's unlikely the next one will either.

The Greens have a warped sense about what's environmentally sound politics, for instance they promoted the worst polluting vehicles on our roads, diesels. All because they emit a bit lower Co2 diesel is hailed in Ireland as a "green fuel" and in the E.U, even in light of the VW emissions scandal, change is unlikely to happen for a very long time. Even the E.U vehicle emissions test is a joke, it's designed to ensure the car manufacturers can pass the emissions regulations it's not designed for the sake of the environment and the fact that the car manufacturers can dictate emissions legislation is just plain wrong, this needs to change.

I'm sure the ESB will need to sort out the grid soon enough because they are just trying to spread the load by scattering the fast chargers around. Truth be told they are probably banking on this not being an issue for 20+ years with the current rate of EV sales but the 6 Kwh leaf could change this and the Model 3 as well as other longer range electrics to soon appear.

I still believe that most people won't change to ev until car makers themselves phase out ICE's.

Sesshoumaru

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Just thinking about this now, the new 30kWh Leaf while not really much of a capacity improvement, does utilise the FCP's much better. When we've got a few more of these cars on the road are we going to see posts asking owners of older generation Leafs to stop hogging the FCP's with their degraded and slower charging battery packs?

I bet you'd appreciate the range upgrade and faster charging all the same !

The faster charging ability of the 30 Kwh really does make it a lot more practical, same 30 mins to 80% but that 80% takes you an extra 40-50 Kms compared to a 24 Kwh leaf on a healthy battery and above 0% it's still charging at 30 Kw compared to the 24 Kw at 6-8 Kw so yeah that's a good improvement.

So 30 mins is 30 mins but the Kwh makes use of it a lot better.

30 mins on the 60 kwh is a different story. We just need to pressure the ESB to install more than 1 charger on the same site in the busier locations.

Sesshoumaru

Deleted User wrote: »

The Model 3 will cost around the same price as a 3 series or a high spec A4, I estimate 38-45 K after taxes.

The 60 Kwh Leaf will be here first and it's unlikely the Bolt will become available in Ireland at least it's for now highly doubtful even when it reaches full production there are no Chevy dealers any more here. Of course you can always import one from the U.K but you got a real problem if it needs to be repaired.

The Irish Government is not in the slightest bit environmentally conscious and it's unlikely the next one will either.

The Greens have a warped sense about what's environmentally sound politics, for instance they promoted the worst polluting vehicles on our roads, diesels. All because they emit a bit lower Co2 diesel is hailed in Ireland as a "green fuel" and in the E.U, even in light of the VW emissions scandal, change is unlikely to happen for a very long time. Even the E.U vehicle emissions test is a joke, it's designed to ensure the car manufacturers can pass the emissions regulations it's not designed for the sake of the environment and the fact that the car manufacturers can dictate emissions legislation is just plain wrong, this needs to change.

I'm sure the ESB will need to sort out the grid soon enough because they are just trying to spread the load by scattering the fast chargers around. Truth be told they are probably banking on this not being an issue for 20+ years with the current rate of EV sales but the 6 Kwh leaf could change this and the Model 3 as well as other longer range electrics to soon appear.

I still believe that most people won't change to ev until car makers themselves phase out ICE's.

I've no hope that the Bolt will arrive in Ireland. I'm also doubtful it will reach the UK. I just found it interesting what GM say LG Chem are charging for the batteries. $145 per kWh just seems very good. I'm curious now to see official specifications for the Hyundai Ioniq PHEV and BEV. The batteries for this car also come from LG Chem and unlike the Bolt, this car will be sold in the UK & Ireland

http://www.hyundai.ie/ioniq/

Would I be wrong in thinking that 100 different FCP locations spread across the island, each one with a single FCP is not the most efficient in terms of serving the needs of EV owners? Some have high utilisation rates (Naas / Blanch) and some have much lower utilisation rates. I see Fastned are installing multiple fast chargers at their fast charging stations. This to me seems to be better long term solution to fast charge point rage. Sure charging euros would help as well, but a queue is a queue. Even when all those in the queue are perceived to be behaving with perfect EV owner charging etiquette, you're going to be waiting a while if there are people in front of you. Which is only going to get more likely as more plugin vehicles hit the road.

Sesshoumaru

Deleted User wrote: »

I bet you'd appreciate the range upgrade and faster charging all the same !

The faster charging ability of the 30 Kwh really does make it a lot more practical, same 30 mins to 80% but that 80% takes you an extra 40-50 Kms compared to a 24 Kwh leaf on a healthy battery and above 0% it's still charging at 30 Kw compared to the 24 Kw at 6-8 Kw so yeah that's a good improvement.

So 30 mins is 30 mins but the Kwh makes use of it a lot better.

30 mins on the 60 kwh is a different story. We just need to pressure the ESB to install more than 1 charger on the same site in the busier locations.

I would appreciate the battery and I'd be willing to pay for the battery. From what I've read online there are no technical reasons the battery could not be fitted as an upgrade to all previous Leafs.

Maybe as an IT person I'm too used to the idea I can just swap out a HD for a larger / faster one or that I can upgrade a graphics card separately to everything else in my PC etc. I paid more than most for my Leaf, I expected a little payback from Nissan. Clearly they didn't appreciate me paying a large sum of money to them in order beta test their vehicle

I take it you've ordered a 30kWh Leaf? Nice car, if money was no object to me I'd order one as well. I hope you receive yours soon!

Sesshoumaru

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I've no hope that the Bolt will arrive in Ireland. I'm also doubtful it will reach the UK. I just found it interesting what GM say LG Chem are charging for the batteries. $145 per kWh just seems very good. I'm curious now to see official specifications for the Hyundai Ioniq PHEV and BEV. The batteries for this car also come from LG Chem and unlike the Bolt, this car will be sold in the UK & Ireland

The Bolt will reach the U.K much quicker than hear. Shame it can only charge at 50 Kw max. I really think this is a lot lower than it could be.

I wouldn't bother with a plug in and they will need to charge a lot more and it's a waste of the public infrastructure though thankfully for now only the Outlander PHEV can fast charge. I would like to see the specs of the Ioniq battery only car.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Would I be wrong in thinking that 100 different FCP locations spread across the island, each one with a single FCP is not the most efficient in terms of serving the needs of EV owners? Some have high utilisation rates (Naas / Blanch) and some have much lower utilisation rates. I see Fastned are installing multiple fast chargers at their fast charging stations. This to me seems to be better long term solution to fast charge point rage. Sure charging euros would help as well, but a queue is a queue. Even when all those in the queue are perceived to be behaving with perfect EV owner charging etiquette, you're going to be waiting a while if there are people in front of you. Which is only going to get more likely as more plugin vehicles hit the road.

You can't have enough fast chargers but doubling up in the busier locations is essential. Blanch and Naas are 2 locations that could do with more AC and DC points. Though the Naas QC is in a bad spot regardless.

Sesshoumaru

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I would appreciate the battery and I'd be willing to pay for the battery. From what I've read online there are no technical reasons the battery could not be fitted as an upgrade to all previous Leafs.

Maybe as an IT person I'm too used to the idea I can just swap out a HD for a larger / faster one or that I can upgrade a graphics card separately to everything else in my PC etc. I paid more than most for my Leaf, I expected a little payback from Nissan. Clearly they didn't appreciate me paying a large sum of money to them in order beta test their vehicle

I take it you've ordered a 30kWh Leaf? Nice car, if money was no object to me I'd order one as well. I hope you receive yours soon!

The battery electrics would have to be upgraded, so it would be uneconomical to do so. But some good will on Nissan's part would be good for the early adopters.

BoatMad

The key to FCP hogging is a reasonable charge regime that (a) makes it dearer then charging at home , and ( b) penalises over 80% charging . The hogging would disappear overnight.

Charging will be introduced in 2016 , the issue is temporary.

Other then that , some people just need a kick up the ar$e

BoatMad

The key to FCP hogging is a reasonable charge regime that (a) makes it dearer then charging at home , and ( b) penalises over 80% charging . The hogging would disappear overnight.

Charging will be introduced in 2016 , the issue is temporary.

Other then that , some people just need a kick up the ar$e

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

The battery electrics would have to be upgraded, so it would be uneconomical to do so. But some good will on Nissan's part would be good for the early adopters.

How many people , seriously , are going to take say a three year or older leaf, probably worth 10k , and spend 7-8 k upgrading a battery to get small incremental gains in capacity.

It's a nonsense idea.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

You can't have enough fast chargers but doubling up in the busier locations is essential. Blanch and Naas are 2 locations that could do with more AC and DC points. Though the Naas QC is in a bad spot regardless.

The Blanch DC charger should be somewhere outskirts of the shopping centre near N3 and there should be a row of 5 dual socket AC chargers in the current location instead.

Padraig Mor

BoatMad wrote: »

The key to FCP hogging is a reasonable charge regime that (a) makes it dearer then charging at home , and ( b) penalises over 80% charging .

I don't think it need to be that severe. I think hogging will disappear if the electricity is charged to people's supplier account at their home rate, even only the cheaper night rate. The reason is simple - why in God's name would anyone go out of their way to go to a FCP and, even it's immediately available, 'waste' half an hour of their time - if it doesn't save them anything?! I often use a FCP to 'top up' at the weekend - would I do it if it were charged at my home rate? No - I'd just charge overnight at home! Charging like this ensures that, for the most part, only people who *need* to use a FCP (longer journeys) will use it. It's also fair on those in apartments etc who cannot put in a home charge point, as they only pay the same rate as if they had.

cros13

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I've no hope that the Bolt will arrive in Ireland. I'm also doubtful it will reach the UK.

GM specifically said that there would be no RHD Bolt. However based on interest from the UK and Australia they are reviewing that decision. There will be a LHD Opel version. It has already been spotted in camo driving in Germany.

If the UK gets it we almost certainly will, there's little additional cost to slapping an opel badge on instead of a vauxhall.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I just found it interesting what GM say LG Chem are charging for the batteries. $145 per kWh just seems very good.

That's what they've quoted on the cell price. The pack price/kWh will be at best a 20% drop from the $230/kWh nissan is currently building Leaf packs for.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Would I be wrong in thinking that 100 different FCP locations spread across the island, each one with a single FCP is not the most efficient in terms of serving the needs of EV owners?

More importantly for me only 23 of those locations have CCS and it's out of order more often than CHAdeMO. The only way forward is multiple rapids per location, if one is out of order or lacks your charging standard it gives you options. CHAdeMO will be effectively dead in the next 4 years anyway, so it's only reasonable to install CCS at all locations by adding an extra rapid.

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

How many people , seriously , are going to take say a three year or older leaf, probably worth 10k , and spend 7-8 k upgrading a battery to get small incremental gains in capacity.

It's a nonsense idea.

I agree, the option should be there though.

cros13

cros13 wrote: »

GM specifically said that there would be no RHD Bolt. However based on interest from the UK and Australia they are reviewing that decision. There will be a LHD Opel version. It has already been spotted in camo driving in Germany.

Opel HQ replied to an e-mail I sent a few weeks ago stating that the Bolt will not be sold as an Opel.

Even if it is, doesn't say Opel Ireland will import it, just as Kia Ireland refused to import the Soul EV. And just like Opel Ireland wouldn't Import the Volt.

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

Opel HQ replied to an e-mail I sent a few weeks ago stating that the Bolt will not be sold as an Opel.

Apparently Opel HQ doesn't know as much as I did.

Opel just announced european Bolt variant two hours ago:
http://www.opel.ie/experience-opel/opel-about/opel-news/2016/February/opel-new-opel-announces-game-changing-ampera-e-battery-electric-car.html

*cough*

Sesshoumaru

BoatMad wrote: »

How many people , seriously , are going to take say a three year or older leaf, probably worth 10k , and spend 7-8 k upgrading a battery to get small incremental gains in capacity.

It's a nonsense idea.

You can replace your battery with a newer chemistry 24kWh battery pack already for $5,500. That price includes trading in your old pack. With this you may think you get no increase whatsoever, but with my 5 year old Leaf I would get a minimum of a 15% increase in capacity and I would also be getting a pack with newer chemistry, which will degrade less over time.

As I mentioned with the LG Chem data, battery prices appear to be going down much faster than even the optimists predicted. So I seriously doubt the figures you mentioned. At cell prices (I realise this is not a battery pack price)an extra 6kWh is just 6 X $145. So a newer 30kWh pack in my Leaf would be at least a 30% increase in capacity and also the newer better pack chemistry.

I then don't need to have a new car manufactured for me and I treat my car more like a platform I can upgrade. Which is actually how Tesla operate.

Sesshoumaru

cros13 wrote: »

Apparently Opel HQ doesn't know as much as I did.

Opel just announced european Bolt variant two hours ago:
http://www.opel.ie/experience-opel/opel-about/opel-news/2016/February/opel-new-opel-announces-game-changing-ampera-e-battery-electric-car.html

*cough*

That is great news. Now we can look forward to two new generation large battery pack EV's, the Hyundai Ioniq and Opel Ampera-e.

Ampera-e demands a new thread. Great news and it will ensure that Nissan will need to come up with a proper capacity battery next year too.

Sesshoumaru

BoatMad wrote: »

The key to FCP hogging is a reasonable charge regime that (a) makes it dearer then charging at home , and ( b) penalises over 80% charging . The hogging would disappear overnight.

Charging will be introduced in 2016 , the issue is temporary.

Other then that , some people just need a kick up the ar$e

Why pick an 80% figure? It seems a bit random. Only obsolete EV's slow down fast charging rate at 80%. Even current Zoe does not suffer this defect.

Many current FCP installations I have noted have only 3 green space. FCP space is shared with SCP. Two PHEV (examples: Outlander, BMW 330e, BMW 225XE Audi e-tron, Volvo XC90 etc.) plugged in to slow charger (which they should be encouraged to do and are perfectly entitled to do) will in many FCP charging stations leave only one single space for FCP use. Outlander PHEV can also use chademo. PHEV's are going to be many times more popular than BEV initially.

Price increases only paper over the underlying issue, lack of multiple fast chargers at each fast charger location. Also poor location of FCP away from motorways and in shopping center locations. People who buy PHEV vehicles are also going to want to use chargers much more frequently due to smaller battery size and their desire no doubt to maximise EV driving time (otherwise why buy a PHEV?).

cros13

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I then don't need to have a new car manufactured for me and I treat my car more like a platform I can upgrade. Which is actually how Tesla operate.

In fairness, the only battery upgrade program Tesla offers in the roadster upgrade, which:

1. They are doing at cost and not making a profit on
2. Is costing owners in the region of $20,000
3. Is more of a reward to early customers than a serious business
4. Hasn't even happened yet because of a 6 month delay in developing the pack

What Tesla has done however is give P85D's out as loaner cars and if you wanted to keep it you just had to pay the price difference between your car and the P85D.

I'm very very sceptical anyone can build a business case in the next 10 years for battery replacements. The financials generally won't work for consumers or manufacturers.
I'm probably going to upgrade my i3 pack if BMW gives me the option, but at the prices I've heard it will not be something an ordinary person would consider doing.

Benny_Cake

Great news! If it does come to Ireland, there will need to be a serious improvement in the availability of CCS chargers though.

BoatMad

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Why pick an 80% figure? It seems a bit random. Only obsolete EV's slow down fast charging rate at 80%. Even current Zoe does not suffer this defect.

Many current FCP installations I have noted have only 3 green space. FCP space is shared with SCP. Two PHEV (examples: Outlander, BMW 330e, BMW 225XE Audi e-tron, Volvo XC90 etc.) plugged in to slow charger (which they should be encouraged to do and are perfectly entitled to do) will in many FCP charging stations leave only one single space for FCP use. Outlander PHEV can also use chademo. PHEV's are going to be many times more popular than BEV initially.

Price increases only paper over the underlying issue, lack of multiple fast chargers at each fast charger location. Also poor location of FCP away from motorways and in shopping center locations. People who buy PHEV vehicles are also going to want to use chargers much more frequently due to smaller battery size and their desire no doubt to maximise EV driving time (otherwise why buy a PHEV?).

The leaf is tapering from 60 % actually.

BoatMad

samih wrote: »

Ampera-e demands a new thread. Great news and it will ensure that Nissan will need to come up with a proper capacity battery next year too.

End of 2018 I suspect before next leaf. Be interesting to see the price curve

cros13

cros13 wrote: »

Apparently Opel HQ doesn't know as much as I did.

Opel just announced european Bolt variant two hours ago:
http://www.opel.ie/experience-opel/opel-about/opel-news/2016/February/opel-new-opel-announces-game-changing-ampera-e-battery-electric-car.html

*cough*

Or the were told not to say anything or they genuinely hadn't a clue.

Doesn't say whether they will make a right hand drive either.

I would love to know when it is available in RHD will Opel Ireland sell it ?

I hope it's not smaller than the Leaf, I need a bigger EV than the Leaf really.

It's a shame it only makes do with 50 Kw DC, GM's response, "no network so why bother" I'd be almost certain that 60 kwh battery could take 100 kw.

Would people take a 100 Kw capable 300 Km leaf over the 50 kw 300 Km Bolt ?

Sure with a 60 kwh battery you will not need a fast charger often but I think I would like the option all the same.

This is the thing, a 60 Kw battery at 45 Kw would take just over an hour to charge to 80%. So will we see a new meaning for charger hogging ?

I hope it's not smaller than the Leaf, I need a bigger EV than the Leaf really.

It's a shame it only makes do with 50 Kw DC, GM's response, "no network so why bother" I'd be almost certain that 60 kwh battery could take 100 kw.

Would people take a 100 Kw capable 300 Km leaf over the 50 kw 300 Km Bolt ?

Sure with a 60 kwh battery you will not need a fast charger often but I think I would like the option all the same.

This is the thing, a 60 Kw battery at 45 Kw would take just over an hour to charge to 80%. So will we see a new meaning for charger hogging ?

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

Or the were told not to say anything or they genuinely hadn't a clue.

Didn't have a clue.... customer facing people often don't even know after the official press release.

Deleted User wrote: »

Doesn't say whether they will make a right hand drive either.

Definitely coming to the UK as a Vauxhall.

Deleted User wrote: »

I would love to know when it is available in RHD will Opel Ireland sell it ?

Open question. Will depend on the state of the EV market here.

Deleted User wrote: »

I hope it's not smaller than the Leaf, I need a bigger EV than the Leaf really.

Smaller than the Leaf in x and y, but taller with a much larger interior. Owes a lot to the i3. Boot is similar-ish size to the Leaf.
Colleague of mine (our CTO) is as big an EV fan as me (has i3, Smart EV & Model S) and had a spin in the bolt at CES. Reminded him very heavily of the i3 in terms of handling/acceleration and the way regen was implemented.

BoatMad

id say it will be slow to arrive in Europe, and by the time it does it will need to be better technically then current specs

Sesshoumaru

BoatMad wrote: »

The leaf is tapering from 60 % actually.

All the more reason to ask why the 80% figure? It seems very random to me. 80% of 24kWh? 80% of 30kWh? 80% of 60kWh?

Sesshoumaru

cros13 wrote: »

In fairness, the only battery upgrade program Tesla offers in the roadster upgrade, which:

1. They are doing at cost and not making a profit on
2. Is costing owners in the region of $20,000
3. Is more of a reward to early customers than a serious business
4. Hasn't even happened yet because of a 6 month delay in developing the pack

What Tesla has done however is give P85D's out as loaner cars and if you wanted to keep it you just had to pay the price difference between your car and the P85D.

I'm very very sceptical anyone can build a business case in the next 10 years for battery replacements. The financials generally won't work for consumers or manufacturers.
I'm probably going to upgrade my i3 pack if BMW gives me the option, but at the prices I've heard it will not be something an ordinary person would consider doing.

I wasn't limiting my statement about Tesla to battery pack upgrades though I was talking more about there philosophy of OTA updates and adding new features to cars already on the road.

Although I was also thinking they at least offered their first customers / beta testers a battery upgrade Loyalty being repaid with loyalty.

BoatMad

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

All the more reason to ask why the 80% figure? It seems very random to me. 80% of 24kWh? 80% of 30kWh? 80% of 60kWh?

merely because the tapering is 1/x and you need to draw a line at a point , 100% can be an elusive figure that takes ages to reach .

Im not fussed at 75% or 85% etc