A little advice please

Grueller

I am in the process of joining a club at the minute but I will find it extremely difficult to make a lot of the training times and they do speed work on a Thursday night which is impossible for me.

My last two 10k race times were 37:48 and 37:19 respectively. I had been doing no speedwork before this.

In the last fortnight my schedule has been;
Monday 7 miles at 7:20 pace
Tuesday 6 miles at 6:40 pace
Wednesday 8 miles at 7:20
Thursday swimming
Friday 2 mile warm up with 12 x 400m repeats run in about 78 seconds. 2 mile warm down for a just under 10 mile total
Saturday 5 mile at 8:15
Sunday 10.5 miles at 7:35
Weekly milage of about 45ish

I have put this together off the top of my head. Does it sound about right?
My aim is to get the 10k times down and to maybe push on to the marathon in October. I am a late comer to running and am a bit clueless.
Thanks in advance.

demfad

Grueller wrote: »

I am in the process of joining a club at the minute but I will find it extremely difficult to make a lot of the training times and they do speed work on a Thursday night which is impossible for me.

My last two 10k race times were 37:48 and 37:19 respectively. I had been doing no speedwork before this.

In the last fortnight my schedule has been;
Monday 7 miles at 7:20 pace
Tuesday 6 miles at 6:40 pace
Wednesday 8 miles at 7:20
Thursday swimming
Friday 2 mile warm up with 12 x 400m repeats run in about 78 seconds. 2 mile warm down for a just under 10 mile total
Saturday 5 mile at 8:15
Sunday 10.5 miles at 7:35
Weekly milage of about 45ish

I have put this together off the top of my head. Does it sound about right?
My aim is to get the 10k times down and to maybe push on to the marathon in October. I am a late comer to running and am a bit clueless.
Thanks in advance.

Just a few questions and some thoughts.
What age are you? How are the 5k splits in the races? Are you fading the second half? Many people might differ by a minute between 5k splits.
I would have thought the 6 mile run on Tuesday should help you avoid a fade to some extent. This is a key run, run the day before as easily as possible so that you are relatively fresh. You can progress this run by adding a mile every week. If you are then strong enough to run 10 miles @ 6:40 you will be able to now run 6 @ 6:30. This will have a direct affect on your 10k pace and help you avoid a fade. Progress the same way @6:30 pace.
Alternate the Thursday reps with LT work on other weeks. I would actually do loads of 200s instead of 400s. They have a better affect on your running form. I don't know if the 12 x 400m is useful as a weekly session. That's my thoughts anyway. Up the mileage very very gradually if possible. there is a relationship between relative mileage and race times for distance races.

Grueller

demfad wrote: »

Just a few questions and some thoughts.
What age are you? How are the 5k splits in the races? Are you fading the second half? Many people might differ by a minute between 5k splits.
I would have thought the 6 mile run on Tuesday should help you avoid a fade to some extent. This is a key run, run the day before as easily as possible so that you are relatively fresh. You can progress this run by adding a mile every week. If you are then strong enough to run 10 miles @ 6:40 you will be able to now run 6 @ 6:30. This will have a direct affect on your 10k pace and help you avoid a fade. Progress the same way @6:30 pace.
Alternate the Thursday reps with LT work on other weeks. I would actually do loads of 200s instead of 400s. They have a better affect on your running form. I don't know if the 12 x 400m is useful as a weekly session. That's my thoughts anyway. Up the mileage very very gradually if possible. there is a relationship between relative mileage and race times for distance races.

35 years old in a few weeks
5k splits are about 18:45 so bang on half my time actually.
What do you mean by LT work on a Thursday?
Thanks for the thoughts.

rom

Polarized training.

Slow stuff should be slow, fast stuff should be fast.

Personally I would build it more around your long run which you don't really have currently

Sat - I would do tues session faster with a warmup and cooldown.
Sun - I would do a longer long run slower on tired legs from the sat session and increase it every few weeks
Mon - As legs are going to be in bits I would do 4M recovery at close to 9min
Tue - Would do 7 easy at a little slower than you are doing.
Wed - Would do the Friday session or variation as you have thurs as recover/day off
Thu - swim
Fri - 7M at easy pace,a little slower than you are doing currently as you have a hard sat/sun

In that you are

Sat - Session
Sun - Long run
Mon - Rec
Tue - Easy
Wed - Session
Thu - Rec
Fri - Easy


At present you are not making use of your day off on Thurs with your training and Mon/Tues/Wed paces are too close together.

Then would use the 3 weeks increase and one week backoff. If you are at 45 now then getting to 55 by mid summer would be a realistic goal.
Adding a warmup/cooldown to the tempo and increasing the long run would do that alone. I would add the wu/cd first.

All this is just opinion. I find the above type of format works for me as I make best use of recovery and hard work. As you move into a marathon plan proper you will find recovery is the most important part.

Grueller

rom wrote: »

Polarized training.

Slow stuff should be slow, fast stuff should be fast.

Personally I would build it more around your long run which you don't really have currently

Sat - I would do tues session faster with a warmup and cooldown.
Sun - I would do a longer long run slower on tired legs from the sat session and increase it every few weeks
Mon - As legs are going to be in bits I would do 4M recovery at close to 9min
Tue - Would do 7 easy at a little slower than you are doing.
Wed - Would do the Friday session or variation as you have thurs as recover/day off
Thu - swim
Fri - 7M at easy pace,a little slower than you are doing currently as you have a hard sat/sun

In that you are

Sat - Session
Sun - Long run
Mon - Rec
Tue - Easy
Wed - Session
Thu - Rec
Fri - Easy


At present you are not making use of your day off on Thurs with your training and Mon/Tues/Wed paces are too close together.

Then would use the 3 weeks increase and one week backoff. If you are at 45 now then getting to 55 by mid summer would be a realistic goal.
Adding a warmup/cooldown to the tempo and increasing the long run would do that alone. I would add the wu/cd first.

All this is just opinion. I find the above type of format works for me as I make best use of recovery and hard work. As you move into a marathon plan proper you will find recovery is the most important part.

Thanks Rom, this is what I was looking for really, just to see what others are doing. Like I say, I am clueless about all of this.

demfad

Grueller wrote: »

35 years old in a few weeks
5k splits are about 18:45 so bang on half my time actually.
What do you mean by LT work on a Thursday?
Thanks for the thoughts.

If you put your 10k time into this site it will give your suggested paces.

Pace at LT (lactate threshold) corresponds to a feeling of 'comfortably hard'. (comfortable having more weight than hard). Its approx the pace you could keep for a 1 hour race. The site gives yours at 6.13 pace. You can do either LT intervals or a continuous run. Pacing is vital so I would start with intervals. 8 x 3 mins off 30s would be a good start. You'll be able to adjust pace to 'comfortably hard' as you go. Progress to 10 x 3 mins, then maybe 5 x 5mins off 1 min etc.

Ill add a few more suggestions to my own and Roms.

The Tuesday fastish run corresponds to your marathon pace or Aerobic threshold (comfortably (less) hard compared to LT effort). This is a key pace to keep developing aerobically week in/week out. It also corresponds to your marathon race pace. If you develop it as I mentioned before it will crunch your 10k time too.

Id agree with Rom that the easy paces are too close to this pace. I would decrease your easy pace to 7:45. This will also allow you to easily increase mileage.

I agree that you do need to increase your long run. I wouldnt do it on tired legs this far from your marathon though. Another session that will help your 10k (and marathon) is the long fast run. When your long run is at 13 miles Id start to alternate it with a long steady run starting at 10 miles (<=7min pace).

I would consider dropping the 400s altogether and replacing with 200s on Friday, alternating with the LT session every 2 weeks. You need a session that improves your technique and relaxation at all paces. If you can run the 200s completely relaxed and do loads of them you'll achieve this. I would add 6-10 strides after an easy run or the long run 1-2 times per week.

I like your recovery at the moment, it seems to be working and I wouldn't change it. That said I dont get much sleep so i favour a lot of recovery.
Generally, close to your target sessions are hard relative to the easy days, far from your target race - not as much so. Keep the sessions under control for now.

Whatever suggestions you get here, look at them on the basis that what you're doing is working pretty well and perhaps small tweaks, evolution etc. is the way to build forward. My opinion anyway.

The two weeks below :
Monday 7 miles at 7:45 pace
Tuesday 6-10 miles at 6:40 pace (add a mile each week, then start again with 6 @ 6:30 pace)
Wednesday 8 miles at 7:45 inc. 6-10 x 10-15s strides
Thursday swimming
Friday 12-18 x 200m relaxed repeats. rest = twice effort time or jog back. Break them into sets e.g 3 x 500 x 200m and 5mins jog/rest between sets. WU/WD OR LT session e.g 5 x 5mins @ LT pace; rest = 1 min
Saturday 5 mile at 8:15
Sunday 10-16 miles at 7:35 OR 10-13 miles @ steady effort < 7 min mile. Progress by slowly increasing run lenghts. sometimes inc. 6-10 x 10-15s strides at the end.

Weekly mileage 45 very gradually and sustainably increasing to 55-60.
Week shoudl feel sustanable as it is now. i.e, very slow increases. All your body to absorb them very gradually.

demfad

Grueller wrote: »

Thanks Rom, this is what I was looking for really, just to see what others are doing. Like I say, I am clueless about all of this.

Have a look through the training logs here too for different approaches etc.

Grueller

demfad wrote: »

If you put your 10k time into this site it will give your suggested paces.

Pace at LT (lactate threshold) corresponds to a feeling of 'comfortably hard'. (comfortable having more weight than hard). Its approx the pace you could keep for a 1 hour race. The site gives yours at 6.13 pace. You can do either LT intervals or a continuous run. Pacing is vital so I would start with intervals. 8 x 3 mins off 30s would be a good start. You'll be able to adjust pace to 'comfortably hard' as you go. Progress to 10 x 3 mins, then maybe 5 x 5mins off 1 min etc.

Ill add a few more suggestions to my own and Roms.

The Tuesday fastish run corresponds to your marathon pace or Aerobic threshold (comfortably (less) hard compared to LT effort). This is a key pace to keep developing aerobically week in/week out. It also corresponds to your marathon race pace. If you develop it as I mentioned before it will crunch your 10k time too.

Id agree with Rom that the easy paces are too close to this pace. I would decrease your easy pace to 7:45. This will also allow you to easily increase mileage.

I agree that you do need to increase your long run. I wouldnt do it on tired legs this far from your marathon though. Another session that will help your 10k (and marathon) is the long fast run. When your long run is at 13 miles Id start to alternate it with a long steady run starting at 10 miles (<=7min pace).

I would consider dropping the 400s altogether and replacing with 200s on Friday, alternating with the LT session every 2 weeks. You need a session that improves your technique and relaxation at all paces. If you can run the 200s completely relaxed and do loads of them you'll achieve this. I would add 6-10 strides after an easy run or the long run 1-2 times per week.

I like your recovery at the moment, it seems to be working and I wouldn't change it. That said I dont get much sleep so i favour a lot of recovery.
Generally, close to your target sessions are hard relative to the easy days, far from your target race - not as much so. Keep the sessions under control for now.

Whatever suggestions you get here, look at them on the basis that what you're doing is working pretty well and perhaps small tweaks, evolution etc. is the way to build forward. My opinion anyway.

The two weeks below :
Monday 7 miles at 7:45 pace
Tuesday 6-10 miles at 6:40 pace (add a mile each week, then start again with 6 @ 6:30 pace)
Wednesday 8 miles at 7:45 inc. 6-10 x 10-15s strides
Thursday swimming
Friday 12-18 x 200m relaxed repeats. rest = twice effort time or jog back. Break them into sets e.g 3 x 500 x 200m and 5mins jog/rest between sets. WU/WD OR LT session e.g 5 x 5mins @ LT pace; rest = 1 min
Saturday 5 mile at 8:15
Sunday 10-16 miles at 7:35 OR 10-13 miles @ steady effort < 7 min mile. Progress by slowly increasing run lenghts. sometimes inc. 6-10 x 10-15s strides at the end.

Weekly mileage 45 very gradually and sustainably increasing to 55-60.
Week shoudl feel sustanable as it is now. i.e, very slow increases. All your body to absorb them very gradually.

Thanks for all the info demfad. One or two questions.
What time should the 200s be taking, ballpark will do thanks.
What do you mean by strides at the end of a long run?
Sorry for all the newbie questions.

demfad

Grueller wrote: »

Thanks for all the info demfad. One or two questions.
What time should the 200s be taking, ballpark will do thanks.
What do you mean by strides at the end of a long run?
Sorry for all the newbie questions.

Start the first at your 400 rep pace. And just let them increase naturally. The whole point is that they are relaxed. So if your 400 pace is not relaxed you'll have to start slower. Keep every rep relaxed the pace should naturally increase over the session and over several sessions. Picture those guys running smoothly in a track race.
You dont need a track. You can do say 35s fast, 70s recovery or jogback. 3k-1500 pace.
Strides are shorter versions of these. 10-15s. Do them periodically or whenever you feel youre legs need pep.