WPM and his 'domination' of NH racing

Wicklow Brave

It was interesting the reactions on Twitter to WPM's rather fruitful afternoon at Leopardstown today. His 20th string novice hurdler hacked up in a G2, Douvan enjoyed a lovely school, a 1-2-3 in the Irish Champion Hurdle that could well be the same 1-2-3 at Cheltenham, and he won the Bumper with an English p2per.

Some are heralding WPM's recent success as the end of NH racing, the ruination the Cheltenham Festival. Strange, I don't recall the same being said when Paul Nicholls was winning Champion Chases, Stayers Hurdles, Gold Cups, year after year. Willie is yet to even win one of those races, never mind win 10 championship races in 6 years like Nicholls did who was also winning the King George, Tingle Creek nearly every year and having 4 in the first 5 in the Gold Cup. On the flat Aidan O'Brien doesn't go a season without mopping up Group Ones.

People are calling it boring and uncompetitive. If it's competition you want, there are 0-85 handicaps there for you, say others. Some say It's ruining betting. Others will argue that the sport is more than about betting, it's about great horses, Frankel was hardly boring and how many times did he go off bigger than odds against. The Cheltenham Festival is at risk of becoming a procession and turning away punters. On the contrary, last year's opening day of the Festival was the best day's sport you will ever witness and we were a matter of inches from the biggest bookie payout in history.

So what do you think? Is the end of NH racing nigh? By 2030 will we have turned off, sick of the sight of Ruby (he ain't retiring anytime soon) motionless on the back of Certains Bourrins Francais as he wins his fifth Champion Hurdle on the bridle and sick of that Cheshire Cat grinning Yank. Or is it just cyclical and the rest will catch up?

Personally, I don't think Willie is as dominant as people are making him out to be. Probably about as dominant as Nicholls was in 6-7 years ago. And look at Nicholls now. WPM is an incredible trainer no doubt, he's nearly winning Melbourne Cups as an afterthought and much of his success is down to very good agents who source his horses and also his stable staff. I do believe there is a slight Anti-Irish sentiment behind people saying he's ruining the sport, again I can't remember the same fuss when PFN was dominant.

I also think the powers that be need to greatly reduce the number of Graded races. The Irish Arkle today was an absolute disgrace, as great and all that it was to see this magnificent Douvan canter around. Like, we had the G1 Douvan won at Christmas, nothing race in Navan that Ttebbob won before Christmas, the Limerick G2 Outlander won, that nothing race in Naas that Shaneshill won, Killultagh Vic's race last week and the Irish Arkle today, all with diabolical field sizes, and the Moriarty in two weeks will be as dire. It's a shambles.

Looking to this years Festival I don't think Willie will win as many races as most think he will. I don't think he'll surpass last year's 8 ever. I think Min, VVM, UDS, Bellshill, Killultagh Vic all get beat. Douvan wins, Faugheen wins, Annie Power wins, Vautour will win the QM/Ryanair, might win the Gold Cup if he runs in it. And then he'll win one handicap, something like the County Hurdle with Ivan Grozny or something. So 5-6 winners.

BumperD

Would be good if there was more competition but there isn't right now. Not sure it's cyclical either, as ricci is very competitive , along with his trainer. Think competition is just weak right now, aligned with a pronounced fall in the numbers of horses in training. Good luck to them. Delighted they are trained in Ireland.

mountgomery burns

What I don't like is how they're all kept apart. I understand it but it means there is one superstar miles clear of everyone else in all the races rather than a few decent and competitive contests amd then a couple more great contests headed by a couple of top class horses.

I guess it will have to catch up eventually but we're denied these contests as a result of them all being in the one stable. The gold cup the only one where you're getting serious competition and look at the excitment that generates.

Wicklow Brave

BumperD wrote: »

Would be good if there was more competition but there isn't right now. Not sure it's cyclical either, as ricci is very competitive , along with his trainer. Think competition is just weak right now, aligned with a pronounced fall in the numbers of horses in training. Good luck to them. Delighted they are trained in Ireland.

I think when Willie's current stars - Vautour, Faugheen, Douvan, Don Poli etc. are retired, he won't be half as dominant. Elliott will catch up to him. Nicholls will be doing better. Skelton meant to mean serious business and will have very good horses from France and the best of the Irish p2pers. Even of this year's bumper horses in Ireland, Elliott has the nicest two imo - Death Duty and Sutton Place, Willie hasn't many. Ricci will have Douvan, Faugheen and Vautour to enjoy in the Championship races over the next few years and after Min, I don't think he's going to be buying that many young horses over the next few years when he's going to be winning Champion Hurdles, Champion Chases, King Georges etc with Vautour, Faugheen, Douvan. Ricci said on ATR that he didn't have many bumper horses this year and I'd imagine it will be the same with novice hurdlers next season, novice chasers the season after.

Wicklow Brave

mountgomery burns wrote: »

What I don't like is how they're all kept apart. I understand it but it means there is one superstar miles clear of everyone else in all the races rather than a few decent and competitive contests amd then a couple more great contests headed by a couple of top class horses.

I guess it will have to catch up eventually but we're denied these contests as a result of them all being in the one stable. The gold cup the only one where you're getting serious competition and look at the excitment that generates.

To be fair to Willie, he did run the front 3 in the Champion Hurdle betting against each other today.

Like I said earlier, the amount of Graded races is the problem. In today's Irish Arkle we could have had a field of Douvan, Killultagh Vic, Shaneshill, Ttebbob, Sizing John, Lord Scoundrel, Velvet Maker, Sizing Codelco, Outlander, Avant Tout, Blair Perrone but instead we've had umpteen 3 runner races this past month.

BumperD

You raise some very good points, especially the bumper crop which looks poor compared to years gone by. Thought Harry fry was going to make a fist of things there a few yrs ago but his run has tapered off, Joey o Brian this side of the pond will be interesting if he has the same perfectionist skills his dad has. That Harold Kirk who buys Mullins horses makes a huge difference. Just look at the strike rate of those he has a hand in acquiring. What amazes me is just how well wm seems to be able to handle so many good horses, I guess pn did the same a few yrs ago as you pointed out. Maybe his run will taper off in a few seasons but his strike rate is still improving each season for the last 10 and now at a staggering 30% which is nuts

Francie Barrett

Wicklow Brave wrote: »

To be fair to Willie, he did run the front 3 in the Champion Hurdle betting against each other today.

He could very well have run them so not to make the whole race look like an utter joke. If he had just run Faugheen, then you'd have an utterly ludicrous situation where the main competition was King Of the Picts (only in the race because the owner is a complete fantasist) and Plinth (only thrown in as an after-thought because the owner has a vested interest in at least maintaining a facade that Irish racing is competitive).

I am not blaming Willie, it's hardly his fault that his horses are simply too good. But at the same time, when Ireland's premier hurdling events gets turned into a glorified schooling race, then that is not good for racing.

Francie Barrett

I tell you what is crazy though, Willie is now favourite to be champion trainer in Britain. I think that is what is really riling the English racing establishment up. That Willie can send over a couple horses at his leisure, mop up all the major prize money while even their top trainers will have a hard slog having to send out 600 runners in a year to take the top trainer title.

jimjamcos

As long as Mullins has Harold Kirk, he'll be unstoppable. The man's a genius when it comes to sourcing/purchasing stock. It's not just a case of throwing money at the sales either with the likes of Un De Sceaux (failed the vet previously) and Min (beaten out of sight in two French runs) inspired, cheap buys. Kirk is key.

On the uncompetitive argument, as we seen today Mullins stable is just too strong now to split runners. For example, if Douvan hacks up in Arkle, as expected, and UDS does likewise in Champion Chase, it's got to be odds-on they'll clash at some stage next season. If eithers pushed out in trip then they'll bump into Vautour, Killultagh Vic etc. If one's sent to England, then it's improving the quality of Saturday racing there. It's win-win getting to watch so many good animals.

For what it's worth, I think Willie will have at least as good a festival as last year. Min, Douvan, Faugheen, Annie, UDS, Vautour, Bellshill, Killultagh Vic will all win IMO while VVM, Don Poli and the couple in 4Miler will all have strong chances.

On his bumper horses, he's been unlucky this season. Ricci's best one, Fulham Road, has had a setback while Gigginstown's best, Admiral Chief, must be a bit of a beast the way he was talking about him again on ATR today, having bullishly put him up at very start of season as one who was really catching his eye on the gallops. He's had a few niggles apparently but could be something special when seeing the track.

Wicklow Brave

Francie Barrett wrote: »

I tell you what is crazy though, Willie is now favourite to be champion trainer in Britain. I think that is what is really riling the English racing establishment up.

Yeah that is phenomenal. And it's funny Willie (and most Irish trainers for that matter) has absolutely no problem sending his horses over to the UK throughout the entire season. The year Annie Power ran in the Stayers he sent her to Ascot, Doncaster, and Cheltenham twice. He's sent Faugheen, Vautour (twice), Un de Sceaux over to the UK already this season. Even talk of Vautour running at Newbury before Cheltenham. Could you imagine Cue Card or Coneygree running in the John Durkan, Lexus and Irish Gold Cup before Cheltenham?! British people take it for granted now that he sends them over. I remember them all on Twitter cribbing when Un de Sceaux didn't run in the Tingle Creek and VVM didn't run in the Peterborough! As if British trainers ever come over here?! Then when he sends UDS and VVM to Ascot and they win, they say he's ruining the sport.

WPM has Annie Power, Douvan, Vautour, Don Poli, Un de Sceaux, Djakadam, and Faugheen.

Nicholls had Big Buck's, Master Minded, Kauto Star, Denman, Twist Magic, Neptune Collonges, and Celestial Halo.

Yet WPM is ruining the sport apparently.

BumperD

Your dead right. He is being successful, the bastard is ruining the sport, typical paddy, the crabs dragging down anyone who is successful

klairondavis

Harold Kirk must be an absolute genius.

I read yesterday that the horse who beat Douvan in France has had one run in England for David Pipe and finished tailed off at Catterick. Min was beaten twice in France as was Vautour.

lemush

klairondavis wrote: »

Harold Kirk must be an absolute genius.

I read yesterday that the horse who beat Douvan in France has had one run in England for David Pipe and finished tailed off at Catterick. Min was beaten twice in France as was Vautour.

For Donald McCain, which explains why he was tailed off.

Why Do We Fall

Wicklow Brave wrote: »

To be fair to Willie, he did run the front 3 in the Champion Hurdle betting against each other today.

Two horses that haven't a hope of getting near Faugheen come the day according to the betting, so it's not exactly competing like against like.

Willie, Ruby and Richi won't compete their very best against each other, that's why AP and VVM won't be in the same race come March. Look at Vautour as well, a horse that was by no means disgraced in the KG yet the GC is now only possibly one of three targets for him, leaving Djakadam to lead the market.

Fair play to them and all, and it was a pleasure last weekend to watch UDS, Faugheen, VVM and Douvan. I wouldn't give them grief either for the market of the champion hurdle being absolutely farcical (bigger reflection on the competition), but the way they target races is literally like beating a dead horse.

Wicklow Brave

Why Do We Fall wrote: »

Two horses that haven't a hope of getting near Faugheen come the day according to the betting, so it's not exactly competing like against like.

Willie, Ruby and Richi won't compete their very best against each other, that's why AP and VVM won't be in the same race come March. Look at Vautour as well, a horse that was by no means disgraced in the KG yet the GC is now only possibly one of three targets for him, leaving Djakadam to lead the market.

Fair play to them and all, and it was a pleasure last weekend to watch UDS, Faugheen, VVM and Douvan. I wouldn't give them grief either for the market of the champion hurdle being absolutely farcical (bigger reflection on the competition), but the way they target races is literally like beating a dead horse.

Easy to say NC and AF were no hopers after the race when many fancied NC before it and AF was only beaten 1.5l by Faugheen at Cheltenham.

I do take your point it isn't like against like but I think it is unfair when WPM/RR are criticised for not running their *very* best against each other, ie. Vautour v Faugheen v Douvan v UDS v Annie Power. If they were all in different stables they still probably wouldn't race because they would have gone the same routes. If they did race then imo Faugheen would win the 2m hurdle, Douvan would win the 2m chase and Vautour would win the 3m chase, which are the divisions they compete in. We'll be seeing Douvan v UDS next year and if Min hacks up in the Supreme, they'll probably go Champion Hurdle v Faugheen like they did Faugheen v Fly. They also intend on running both Vautour and Djakadam in the Gold Cup. And Annie Power would beat VVM comfortably if they met over hurdles imo so I don't think we're missing out if one goes Stayers and one goes Mares.

jimjamcos

Wicklow Brave wrote:

I do take your point it isn't like against like but I think it is unfair when WPM/RR are criticised for not running their *very* best against each other, ie. Vautour v Faugheen v Douvan v UDS v Annie Power. If they were all in different stables they still probably wouldn't race because they would have gone the same routes. If they did race then imo Faugheen would win the 2m hurdle, Douvan would win the 2m chase and Vautour would win the 3m chase, which are the divisions they compete in. We'll be seeing Douvan v UDS next year and if Min hacks up in the Supreme, they'll probably go Champion Hurdle v Faugheen like they did Faugheen v Fly. They also intend on running both Vautour and Djakadam in the Gold Cup. And Annie Power would beat VVM comfortably if they met over hurdles imo so I don't think we're missing out if one goes Stayers and one goes Mares.

Given his scope and immaculate jumping, it's likely Min will be preparing for an Arkle tilt this time next year. Agree otherwise though.

Wicklow Brave

jimjamcos wrote: »

Given his scope and immaculate jumping, it's likely Min will be preparing for an Arkle tilt this time next year. Agree otherwise though.

I'm not sure. A lot of people wanted Douvan to stay hurdling this year. If Min does win the Supreme that will be 4 Supreme winners on the bounce and they've sent the previous three chasing. Min is an immaculate jumper of a hurdle like you say and that's all the more reason to keep him hurdling. I don't think Min has the same scope Douvan and Vautour possess either. Faugheen isn't getting any younger also, he'll be 9 next season. The 'Willie is ruining NH racing' brigade will be calling for Min to stay over hurdles to challenge Faugheen and Ricci will bow to external pressure and keeping him hurdling.

That's if Min hacks up in the Supreme of course. If he gets stuffed no one will care and they'll do what they want with him - likely chasing.

longshotvalue

Wicklow Brave wrote: »

Yeah that is phenomenal. And it's funny Willie (and most Irish trainers for that matter) has absolutely no problem sending his horses over to the UK throughout the entire season. The year Annie Power ran in the Stayers he sent her to Ascot, Doncaster, and Cheltenham twice. He's sent Faugheen, Vautour (twice), Un de Sceaux over to the UK already this season. Even talk of Vautour running at Newbury before Cheltenham. Could you imagine Cue Card or Coneygree running in the John Durkan, Lexus and Irish Gold Cup before Cheltenham?! British people take it for granted now that he sends them over. I remember them all on Twitter cribbing when Un de Sceaux didn't run in the Tingle Creek and VVM didn't run in the Peterborough! As if British trainers ever come over here?! Then when he sends UDS and VVM to Ascot and they win, they say he's ruining the sport.

WPM has Annie Power, Douvan, Vautour, Don Poli, Un de Sceaux, Djakadam, and Faugheen.

Nicholls had Big Buck's, Master Minded, Kauto Star, Denman, Twist Magic, Neptune Collonges, and Celestial Halo.

Yet WPM is ruining the sport apparently.

When you look at that list willies lot have a bit to do yet apart from maybe Faugheen

Kauto

Francie Barrett wrote: »

I tell you what is crazy though, Willie is now favourite to be champion trainer in Britain. I think that is what is really riling the English racing establishment up. That Willie can send over a couple horses at his leisure, mop up all the major prize money while even their top trainers will have a hard slog having to send out 600 runners in a year to take the top trainer title.

Sure Aidan O'Brien has won a couple of trainers championships in Britain. Nothing new there!

Kauto

klairondavis wrote: »

Harold Kirk must be an absolute genius.

I read yesterday that the horse who beat Douvan in France has had one run in England for David Pipe and finished tailed off at Catterick. Min was beaten twice in France as was Vautour.

Its not Kirk. Its the French agent he has over there that sources the horses.

Wicklow Brave

Wicklow Brave wrote: »

As if British trainers ever come over here?!

British trainers come over here all the time. Go and take a look at the Lexus winners for the last 10 years. I am struggling to figure out how someone who follows racing is not aware of this.

Anyway, you can hardly blame Mullins for the situation but there's no doubt it is bad for racing to have a Champion Hurdle - to give one example - that is shaping up like this renewal. Certainly the festival should be about contests and 'showdowns' - that is what makes things interesting. But again, not Mullins' fault, what is he supposed to do?

As a racegoer it's certainly a turn off to have three or four races on a card with an odds-on FAV, even if it is wonderful to see the superstars in action.

I also dislike Rich Ricci so I'm afraid that as great as some of his horses are, I won't be cheering them on. I know they don't know who owns them but I just find him totally odious.

Wicklow Brave

[Deleted User] wrote: »

British trainers come over here all the time. Go and take a look at the Lexus winners for the last 10 years. I am struggling to figure out how someone who follows racing is not aware of this.

The Lexus is a race held once a year. That's hardly British trainers coming over here *all* the time. I didn't mean British trainers never come over here *literally*, Rebecca Curtis brought At Fisher's Cross over only last week, but I was the making the point that Willie had runners in Kempton over Christmas, Taunton and Sandown a week later, Wawrick the following week, Ascot last week and he will have runners in both Doncaster and Cheltenham this week, nearly every weekend since the season has started he's had runners in the UK. Now, I know Willie is exceptional in that he's targeting the UK trainers title but other Irish trainers send their horses over and do it on a far more regular basis than British trainers sending their horse over here.

Wicklow Brave

Wicklow Brave wrote: »

The Lexus is a race held once a year. That's hardly British trainers coming over here *all* the time. I didn't mean British trainers never come over here *literally*, Rebecca Curtis brought At Fisher's Cross over only last week, but I was the making the point that Willie had runners in Kempton over Christmas, Taunton and Sandown a week later, Wawrick the following week, Ascot last week and he will have runners in both Doncaster and Cheltenham this week, nearly every weekend since the season has started he's had runners in the UK. Now, I know Willie is exceptional in that he's targeting the UK trainers title but other Irish trainers send their horses over and do it on a far more regular basis than British trainers sending their horse over here.

British trainers come over here for the big races exactly the same way Mullins goes over there for the big races. I agree he does it more (mainly as a way to keep horses apart I suspect) but it's just not true to suggest British horses are rare over here. To give one other obvious example Nicholls has won the jnwine about 3 or 4 times in recent history. In fact he always sends a few runners to that meeting.

Wicklow Brave

[Deleted User] wrote: »

British trainers come over here for the big races exactly the same way Mullins goes over there for the big races. I agree he does it more (mainly as a way to keep horses apart I suspect) but it's just not true to suggest British horses are rare over here. To give one other obvious example Nicholls has won the jnwine about 3 or 4 times in recent history. In fact he always sends a few runners to that meeting.

Yeah you're right, I was overemphasising it. At the same time, British friends of mine were moaning when Mullins didn't run Vroum Vroum Mag in the Peterborough and I was saying ''if VVM was trained by Henderson or any other British trainer, do you really think they'd bring her over to run in the Hilly Way or the John Durkan?'' I don't think they would. And again, Mullins got flack for not running UDS in the Tingle Creek, many ignoring the difficulty of sending a horse over to the UK. Vautour hasn't ran in Ireland yet this season and Faugheen didn't race in Ireland until after Cheltenham last season, Annie Power did the same the season before. Hurricane Fly never gets his due credit from British racing fans because ''he only won weak Grade Ones in Ireland''. This is probably why WPM brings them over more frequently now. I think British race-goers just expect these horses to come over and race at the drop of a hat, which is unfair and British trainers aren't subject to the same here.

mountgomery burns

One things is for certain Mullins/Ricci wont bow to external pressure. What the punter thinks will have no bearing whatsoever on What happens with Min if he wins the Supreme. If Faugheen wins the champion comfortably, hard not to see Min going Chasing.

Wicklow Brave

mountgomery burns wrote: »

One things is for certain Mullins/Ricci wont bow to external pressure. What the punter thinks will have no bearing whatsoever on What happens with Min if he wins the Supreme. If Faugheen wins the champion comfortably, hard not to see Min going Chasing.

No I think they'll appease the punters and we'll see Faugheen v Min and Douvan v UDS next year. Mind you, Faugheen will thump Min and Douvan will thump UDS and people will still be moaning.

jimjamcos

Wicklow Brave wrote:

No I think they'll appease the punters and we'll see Faugheen v Min and Douvan v UDS next year. Mind you, Faugheen will thump Min and Douvan will thump UDS and people will still be moaning.

Do you honestly (seriously!) believe Mullins, Ricci and Ruby give a flying foook about punters? Mullins and Ricci do nothing BUT caution punters that plans can change at anytime!

They care that horses win big races, pure and simple, not that us punters get a spectacle/make a buck.

PM me nudes

Ricci appointed chairman of BetBright, can't see that going down well with the conspiracy theorists

Wicklow Brave

jimjamcos wrote: »

Do you honestly (seriously!) believe Mullins, Ricci and Ruby give a flying foook about punters? Mullins and Ricci do nothing BUT caution punters that plans can change at anytime!

They care that horses win big races, pure and simple, not that us punters get a spectacle/make a buck.

I should replace the word 'punters' with 'racing fans'. I don't mean from a betting point of view, I mean from a sporting point of view. It has nothing to do with punters making money but rather racing fans seeing the best race the best.

And yes, I do think they care what racing fans think. Ricci definitely does. If I met Willie Mullins on the street and said to him ''Massive racing fan myself Willie, but I never rated Hurricane Fly'', I would imagine he'd care. Patrick Mullins didn't write a near full-page letter to the Racing Post about Fly's perceived lack of respect for the craic. He did it because he cared. Would he have done that if he didn't give a flying foook?

If Min hacks up in the Supreme, you're going to have Matt Chapman etc pleading with Ricci to take on Faugheen with him. *EVERYONE* is going be demanding Min v Faugheen. They sent Vautour chasing and they sent Douvan chasing, I think Min will stay hurdling (if he wins the Supreme).

jimjamcos

Wicklow Brave wrote:

If Min hacks up in the Supreme, you're going to have Matt Chapman etc pleading with Ricci to take on Faugheen with him. *EVERYONE* is going be demanding Min v Faugheen. They sent Vautour chasing and they sent Douvan chasing, I think Min will stay hurdling (if he wins the Supreme).

Wicklow Brave wrote:

And yes, I do think they care what racing fans think. Ricci definitely does. If I met Willie Mullins on the street and said to him ''Massive racing fan myself Willie, but I never rated Hurricane Fly'', I would imagine he'd care. Patrick Mullins didn't write a near full-page letter to the Racing Post about Fly's perceived lack of respect for the craic. He did it because he cared. Would he have done that if he didn't give a flying foook?

Wicklow Brave wrote:

And yes, I do think they care what racing fans think. Ricci definitely does. If I met Willie Mullins on the street and said to him ''Massive racing fan myself Willie, but I never rated Hurricane Fly'', I would imagine he'd care. Patrick Mullins didn't write a near full-page letter to the Racing Post about Fly's perceived lack of respect for the craic. He did it because he cared. Would he have done that if he didn't give a flying foook?

Well you completely changed your point there. Regardless, that they care that media/public show respect to a great horse (and Hurricane Fly was an exceptional case), again, they don't plan horses careers on such opinions. Emotion, sentiment, even the brilliant viewing spectacle of future big name clashes is not considered by connections when deciding a horses' route. Winning, and winning repeatedly is, solely.

Wicklow Brave

jimjamcos wrote: »

Well you completely changed your point there. Regardless, that they care that media/public show respect to a great horse (and Hurricane Fly was an exceptional case), again, they don't plan horses careers on such opinions. Emotion, sentiment, even the brilliant viewing spectacle of future big name clashes is not considered by connections when deciding a horses' route. Winning, and winning repeatedly is, solely.

Where did I change my point?

Look, all I'm saying is if Min wins the Supreme I think he'll be running over hurdles next season.

Meath Centre Forward

From a personal point of view, my interest in racing hasn't been affected by Willie Mullins current domination. Not sure if there's anyone on this thread who would say different?

I don't think people realize how quickly things can change. If Ruby Walsh picked up an injury at Thurles today that put him out of Cheltenham, the narrative around Mullins' Cheltenham stars would change dramatically.

The opening post also compared Mullins current streak to Paul Nicholls in the Kauto Star era. Gradually over a 2-3 year period, things went sharply downhill for Nicholls. Who knows similar may happen here. Dan Skelton and Harry Fry went solo. Ruby Walsh left. Kauto Star, Denman, Big Bucks & Master Minded reached the end. We don't know what shap the next few seasons will take.

If in 5 years time, nobody has closed the gap on Mullins, and Gigginstown, Ricci and Wylie are still getting the best horses and putting them in Mullins stable, then I'll start to get worried. People also forget the likes of Barry Connell, Alan Potts & JP McManus have fairly strong operations around too and with a bit of luck could easily have 3-4 Cheltenham winners sometime soon.

But on the point about those owners with 30+ horses, the once-off owner or a syndicate getting lucky seems to be getting rarer. It's really Galway in the summer and not Cheltenham in spring that we see that kind of owner. That is a bit of a loss to the sport in my opinion.

Meath Centre Forward

Meath Centre Forward wrote: »

If in 5 years time, nobody has closed the gap on Mullins, and Gigginstown, Ricci and Wylie are still getting the best horses and putting them in Mullins stable, then I'll start to get worried. People also forget the likes of Barry Connell, Alan Potts & JP McManus have fairly strong operations around too and with a bit of luck could easily have 3-4 Cheltenham winners sometime soon.

But on the point about those owners with 30+ horses, the once-off owner or a syndicate getting lucky seems to be getting rarer. It's really Galway in the summer and not Cheltenham in spring that we see that kind of owner. That is a bit of a loss to the sport in my opinion.

The issue is the same as with any business. Ricci is the kind of character who may well pack the whole thing in at a moment's notice. He just has to decide he prefers yachting or whatever and off he goes. Less likely with JP and O'Leary but who knows?

You don't want your sport to be relying on a handful of people. It becomes too damaging when one of them packs it in.

theaceofspies

The Romance has gone from NH Racing. The lifeblood which is the small trainer is being drained. Next key statistic which is going to take a hammering will be number of licensed jockeys as the opportunities disappear for them.
Increasing prizemoney is only adding fuel to the fire and is a big the reason why things are the way are.
The money should be channeled into upgrading racecourses, looking after ALL owners etc. instead of putting more prizemoney into the pockets of the rich.

Wicklow Brave

Kevin Blake has written a fantastic blog on this subject for ATR. Can't link cos I'm on my phone but definitely recommended reading.

nimbinsurfer

Wicklow Brave wrote: »

Kevin Blake has written a fantastic blog on this subject for ATR. Can't link cos I'm on my phone but definitely recommended reading.

Here's the link:

http://www.attheraces.com/blogs/kevin-blake

I said

What if rich Ricci all those years ago chose Paul Nichols as his trainer there would be some moaning if they were coming over here hoovering up all the big prizes.

danganabu

Meath Centre Forward wrote: »

From a personal point of view, my interest in racing hasn't been affected by Willie Mullins current domination. Not sure if there's anyone on this thread who would say different?

I don't think people realize how quickly things can change. If Ruby Walsh picked up an injury at Thurles today that put him out of Cheltenham, the narrative around Mullins' Cheltenham stars would change dramatically.

The opening post also compared Mullins current streak to Paul Nicholls in the Kauto Star era. Gradually over a 2-3 year period, things went sharply downhill for Nicholls. Who knows similar may happen here. Dan Skelton and Harry Fry went solo. Ruby Walsh left. Kauto Star, Denman, Big Bucks & Master Minded reached the end. We don't know what shap the next few seasons will take.

If in 5 years time, nobody has closed the gap on Mullins, and Gigginstown, Ricci and Wylie are still getting the best horses and putting them in Mullins stable, then I'll start to get worried. People also forget the likes of Barry Connell, Alan Potts & JP McManus have fairly strong operations around too and with a bit of luck could easily have 3-4 Cheltenham winners sometime soon.

But on the point about those owners with 30+ horses, the once-off owner or a syndicate getting lucky seems to be getting rarer. It's really Galway in the summer and not Cheltenham in spring that we see that kind of owner. That is a bit of a loss to the sport in my opinion.

Completely agree with you on the first point, it certainly hasn't diminished my enjoyment of the game, in fact watching superstars in full flight is what I fell in love with and the fact that the majority of them at this moment in time seem to be coming from the same stable is completely irrelevant.

Don't agree with your summation regarding a potential injury to Ruby, Paul Townend would not put me off backing any horse tbh. Super jockey and far too good to be number 2 in any other circumstances.

I also think that Willies dominance is far greater than Nicholl's ever was, the main difference being the strength in depth, he currently has an absolutely insane 23 horse at single figure prices for the festival, that is unprecedented dominance.

Re. the syndicates and small owners again that is more a reflection on modern social and economic changes than anyone person or any single development, I agree it is something that certainly adds to the sport, there will still be examples but yes few and far between.

danganabu

Deleted User wrote: »

The issue is the same as with any business. Ricci is the kind of character who may well pack the whole thing in at a moment's notice. He just has to decide he prefers yachting or whatever and off he goes. Less likely with JP and O'Leary but who knows?

You don't want your sport to be relying on a handful of people. It becomes too damaging when one of them packs it in.

Not a chance in hell of that ever happening with Ricci, he has a lot of questionable traits and a lot of ghosts in his closets, but there is absolutely no denying his genuine love and obsession with the NH game.

danganabu

theaceofspies wrote: »

The Romance has gone from NH Racing. The lifeblood which is the small trainer is being drained. Next key statistic which is going to take a hammering will be number of licensed jockeys as the opportunities disappear for them.
Increasing prizemoney is only adding fuel to the fire and is a big the reason why things are the way are.
The money should be channeled into upgrading racecourses, looking after ALL owners etc. instead of putting more prizemoney into the pockets of the rich.

The prizemoney is still pathetic and its the lack of prizemenoey that is driving owners away from the game and making it impossible for the small trainers to survive

And how would reducing prizemoney increase the number of opportunities for licensed jockeys?

Francie Barrett

£1.00 Accumulator
Shaneshill @ 15/8
Morning Run @ 5/4
Up For Review @ 7/4
Djakadam @ 4/7
Stake: £1.00Est. Returns: £27.95

The way this yard is going, it's worth a quid!

Francie Barrett

£1.00 Accumulator
Shaneshill @ 15/8
Morning Run @ 5/4
Up For Review @ 7/4
Djakadam @ 4/7
Stake: £1.00Est. Returns: £27.95

The way this yard is going, it's worth a quid!

BumperD

I said wrote: »

What if rich Ricci all those years ago chose Paul Nichols as his trainer there would be some moaning if they were coming over here hoovering up all the big prizes.

Spot on.

Meath Centre Forward

danganabu wrote: »

Completely agree with you on the first point, it certainly hasn't diminished my enjoyment of the game, in fact watching superstars in full flight is what I fell in love with and the fact that the majority of them at this moment in time seem to be coming from the same stable is completely irrelevant.

Don't agree with your summation regarding a potential injury to Ruby, Paul Townend would not put me off backing any horse tbh. Super jockey and far too good to be number 2 in any other circumstances.

I also think that Willies dominance is far greater than Nicholl's ever was, the main difference being the strength in depth, he currently has an absolutely insane 23 horse at single figure prices for the festival, that is unprecedented dominance.

Re. the syndicates and small owners again that is more a reflection on modern social and economic changes than anyone person or any single development, I agree it is something that certainly adds to the sport, there will still be examples but yes few and far between.

I would rate Townend highly also but as I say I think the overall narrative would change. Instead of talking of Mullins dominance, people would be talking about Walsh being out.

As regards Mullins being more dominant than Nicholls, I would not be so dismissive of Nicholls. I remember some Saturdays in November and December where he would regularly have 4 or 5 winners across cards. He also won two Champion Chases with Master Minded, four World Hurdles with Big Bucks, two Gold Cups with Kauto Star and one with Denman. Not to mention his fair share of novice races and a Champion Hurdle in his name. When he did dominate, he was really strong. Mullins hasn't yet had the same dominance in the big races - that may well change this year.

Andalucia

Mullins gets too much of a solo in the Irish graded races, Kevin Blake makes reference to the fact that there is too many such races and it allows Mullins to pick and choose to keep his horses apart where possible.

Taking yesterday's runners in the UK as a guide, Up for Review, Shaneshill and Morning Run were all previous graded winners in Ireland, with races run to suit, yesterday when the UK trained runners decided that the WM runners would have to earn the STG, they were beat out of sight - Irish racing is just too uncompetitive, they're allowed uncontested leads at every opportunity

yesterday also highlighted the gap Walsh will leave when he retires - Townend won't be getting that gig

prettyboy81

Andalucia wrote: »

Mullins gets too much of a solo in the Irish graded races, Kevin Blake makes reference to the fact that there is too many such races and it allows Mullins to pick and choose to keep his horses apart where possible.

Taking yesterday's runners in the UK as a guide, Up for Review, Shaneshill and Morning Run were all previous graded winners in Ireland, with races run to suit, yesterday when the UK trained runners decided that the WM runners would have to earn the STG, they were beat out of sight - Irish racing is just too uncompetitive, they're allowed uncontested leads at every opportunity

yesterday also highlighted the gap Walsh will leave when he retires - Townend won't be getting that gig

In your expert opinion what did Townsend do wrong yesterday??? If the horses were not good enough, I wonder what else he could have done!

Gamebred

Andalucia wrote: »

Mullins gets too much of a solo in the Irish graded races, Kevin Blake makes reference to the fact that there is too many such races and it allows Mullins to pick and choose to keep his horses apart where possible.

Taking yesterday's runners in the UK as a guide, Up for Review, Shaneshill and Morning Run were all previous graded winners in Ireland, with races run to suit, yesterday when the UK trained runners decided that the WM runners would have to earn the STG, they were beat out of sight - Irish racing is just too uncompetitive, they're allowed uncontested leads at every opportunity

yesterday also highlighted the gap Walsh will leave when he retires - Townend won't be getting that gig

How much did you lose on his 3 rides at Doncaster?


He is the best jockey in the country outside of Ruby and Geraghty,he is 100% in line for the stable job next.

Gregk961

Townend is a great jockey, you'll have to point out what he did wrong yesterday.

Andalucia

ok,whilst not wanting to diminish the significant riding ability of Townend, I don't think he is riding as well as he did some years ago - Also, I just believe that we won't see the likes of Ruby again - and he will be sorely missed when he calls it a day

I also think that the way David Mullins has arrived on the scene and the improvement he is making, he will get the stable gig - its a long way off anyway

the only ride I thought was poor was on Up for Review - he went at it a long way out with Barters Hill, may have been better off to sit in behind given he finished legless

Shaneshill is a poor enough jumper that was evident from his last race and Morning Run looks to have regressed from last yr - I also see WM state he thinks they might have got a chill on the way over

Gamebred

Andalucia wrote: »

ok,whilst not wanting to diminish the significant riding ability of Townend, I don't think he is riding as well as he did some years ago - Also, I just believe that we won't see the likes of Ruby again - and he will be sorely missed when he calls it a day

I also think that the way David Mullins has arrived on the scene and the improvement he is making, he will get the stable gig - its a long way off anyway

the only ride I thought was poor was on Up for Review - he went at it a long way out with Barters Hill, may have been better off to sit in behind given he finished legless

Shaneshill is a poor enough jumper that was evident from his last race and Morning Run looks to have regressed from last yr - I also see WM state he thinks they might have got a chill on the way over

I agree with you on David Mullins hes a smashing rider but there has been many propects who never make the jump from promising young rider to seasoned pro,Townend is a very talented rider when ruby was out injured he filled in perfectly becoming champion and winning grade 1s,



Mares are a bad betting medium specially after having time off always thought Analifet would be a monster she turned out no good,like so many mares they can down tools when they feel like it,Shaneshill hasnt taken to fences imo although he was bet too far to be his true running I give him no chance around the cheltenham fences jumping like that,


Up For Review is a big idle boat of a thing hes no grade 1 material,beating average yokes like Space Cadet and Jet stream jack on his previous runs were not on the level of Barters hills line of form,any decent race hes ran in hes been lapped ie Yorkhill moonracer and even tycoon prince in naas,dont rate anything hes bet.

Gringo180

Andalucia wrote: »

Mullins gets too much of a solo in the Irish graded races, Kevin Blake makes reference to the fact that there is too many such races and it allows Mullins to pick and choose to keep his horses apart where possible.

Taking yesterday's runners in the UK as a guide, Up for Review, Shaneshill and Morning Run were all previous graded winners in Ireland, with races run to suit, yesterday when the UK trained runners decided that the WM runners would have to earn the STG, they were beat out of sight - Irish racing is just too uncompetitive, they're allowed uncontested leads at every opportunity

yesterday also highlighted the gap Walsh will leave when he retires - Townend won't be getting that gig

No way those horses ran up to form at Doncaster. Something wasn't right with them.