Door handle doing my head in - help please!!

54and56

Hi all,

The handle on my internal kitchen door has stopped returning up and is just staying down. I thought it must be the spring loaded handles themselves so I swapped them with an identical set from another less used door which gives access to the area under the stairs and to my surprise the problem persisted. When the under the stairs handles were fitted to the kitchen door they immediately slumped down and stayed down and when the old set which had been fitted to the kitchen door were fitted to the under the stairs door they worked perfectly.

A ha I thought, the problem must be the the internal mortice latch so I fitted the under the stairs latch to the kitchen and the handles still slumped down. I know have the under the stairs mortice latch and handles which work perfectly when fitted to the under the stairs door fitted to the kitchen door where the handles end up slumping down under their own weight.

Not to be defeated I went to Woodies and bought a replacement mortice latch and it makes no difference whatsoever, the handles still slump down.

Not I am well and truly stumped and feeling totally defeated

I'm thinking the only logical thing left to consider is that somehow the space which the mortice latch fits into has somehow become deformed and isn't providing the support the mortice latch needs but having run my fingers into the space it feels smooth and consistently bored out and the mortice latches seem to be a nice snug fit.

Can anyone here put me out of my misery and help me restore some credibility with my family who are currently in stitches laughing at how something I thought I'd fix in 10 minutes has so far taken over an hour and a trip to Woodies and I'm still no closer to fixing the problem?

Here is the thing thats besting me

syklops

I'm not really sure why you thought it was the handles themselves were the problem.

It sounds like a component of the mechanism has failed, probably the spring. Did you look at the mechanism?

54and56

syklops wrote: »

It sounds like a component of the mechanism has failed, probably the spring. Did you look at the mechanism?

Yep, swapped the entire mechanism with an identical one from another door in the house which had been working perfectly and when installed in the kitchen door the handles still slump. I even went to Woodies and got a brand new mechanism and fitted that but the handles still slump down as shown in the picture.

syklops

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Yep, swapped the entire mechanism with an identical one from another door in the house which had been working perfectly and when installed in the kitchen door the handles still slump. I even went to Woodies and got a brand new mechanism and fitted that but the handles still slump down as shown in the picture.

In the picture the spring bolt is in the back position. There should be a spring pushing that forward. If you pull the handles up, does the spring bolt push forward?

Calahonda52

Wild guess here: is it "handed" i.e. depends which way the door is hinged and the orientation of the locking mechanism and handles.

54and56

syklops wrote: »

In the picture the spring bolt is in the back position. There should be a spring pushing that forward. If you pull the handles up, does the spring bolt push forward?

Yes, if I pull the handles up the spring bolt moves forward and the "lip" (for want of a better word) which keep the door closed moves out as normal. That's why I thought a spring in the spring bolt mechanism itself must be gone but I tried another two mechanisms in the door (one identical one from another door which was functioning perfectly in the other door and a new mechanism from Woodies) and on all three mechanisms the handles slump down and the spring bolt remains in the back position as if the weight of the handles is over powering the spring but I know that can't be the case as I also swapped a set of handles which work perfectly on another door but when fitted to this kitchen door perform as in the picture.

It's really doing my head in!!

sky6

Have you tried operating it with the Handles off using a grips or pliers to turn the spindle and see if the latch operates properly.
Make sure also that the length of the spindle is long enough between both Handles.

sky6

Have you tried operating it with the Handles off using a grips or pliers to turn the spindle and see if the latch operates properly.
Make sure also that the length of the spindle is long enough between both Handles.

greasepalm

is it possible door lock is upside down?

the_pen_turner

try all the parts off the door.

does the handle drop when you let go or does it not go back up when you let it go

if the hole where the bar goes through the door is too tight or not cantered this will put pressure on the bar and stop it freely moving

the_pen_turner

try all the parts off the door.

does the handle drop when you let go or does it not go back up when you let it go

if the hole where the bar goes through the door is too tight or not cantered this will put pressure on the bar and stop it freely moving

54and56

sky6 wrote: »

Have you tried operating it with the Handles off using a grips or pliers to turn the spindle and see if the latch operates properly.

Yes I have and the mechanism springs back to the correct position (bolt out) every time.

sky6 wrote: »

Make sure also that the length of the spindle is long enough between both Handles.

If you mean the bar which passed through the hole in the door then yes it is long enough, it's the original part which came with the handles. I actually tried the bar off another identical handle and the results are the same.

54and56

greasepalm wrote: »

is it possible door lock is upside down?

Good idea but no, if it was the door wouldn't close with the handles up as the bolt would get jammed. The right way round the slopey part of the bolt ensures the door closes by compressing the bolt until the bolt clicks into the door frame recess.

54and56

the_pen_turner wrote: »

try all the parts off the door.

Not sure hat you mean. I've taken all the parts off the door (handles, spindle/bar which connects the handles through the door and removed the mechanism. All appear to the working fine and when I swapped them for an entire identical set from another door the original set from the kitchen door works perfectly in the stairs door and the set from the stairs door, which worked perfectly in the stairs door won't work in the kitchen door.

My logic is telling me that it must therefore be the door somehow but I just can't understand how that might be the case

Calibos

In the photo of the handle, I think I see a small cutout notch on the rim of the circular part of the handle. Probably there to access a screw of some sort. It's facing into the room and visible to someone in the room. Aesthetically you wouldn't design your handle with that hole visible. Hence I think that hole in the circular piece should be facing the floor where it wouldn't be visible.

ie. I think you might have been mounting that handle rotated 60degrees wrong.

See if you can fit the handle with that hole facing downwards. If this is the issue and you refitted all the swaps and the new woodies handle the same way as in the photo that might explain why they all work on the under stairs door but none work on the kitchen door.

Calibos

In the photo of the handle, I think I see a small cutout notch on the rim of the circular part of the handle. Probably there to access a screw of some sort. It's facing into the room and visible to someone in the room. Aesthetically you wouldn't design your handle with that hole visible. Hence I think that hole in the circular piece should be facing the floor where it wouldn't be visible.

ie. I think you might have been mounting that handle rotated 60degrees wrong.

See if you can fit the handle with that hole facing downwards. If this is the issue and you refitted all the swaps and the new woodies handle the same way as in the photo that might explain why they all work on the under stairs door but none work on the kitchen door.

54and56

Calibos wrote: »

In the photo of the handle, I think I see a small cutout notch on the rim of the circular part of the handle. Probably there to access a screw of some sort. It's facing into the room and visible to someone in the room. Aesthetically you wouldn't design your handle with that hole visible. Hence I think that hole in the circular piece should be facing the floor where it wouldn't be visible.

ie. I think you might have been mounting that handle rotated 60degrees wrong.

See if you can fit the handle with that hole facing downwards. If this is the issue and you refitted all the swaps and the new woodies handle the same way as in the photo that might explain why they all work on the under stairs door but none work on the kitchen door.

Great point Calibos. The notch you noticed (seriously well done for spotting that!!) is actually a slot you put a flat head screw driver into to "pop" off the handle once you've removed a recessed screw which binds the handle to the spindle. The circular piece is built onto the handle (not a separate part) and when the handle is in the normal position it does indeed face the floor. It's facing outward in the picture because the handle is in the down position and it is the handle slumping to and staying in the down position which is the problem I'm struggling to solve.

Calibos

Ah Feck it. I thought I'd cracked it for ya.

Logic dictates the problem has to be with the door itself if that's the common denominator between handles working or not working. Could it be something as simple as splinters around the hole in the wood that the handle spindle passes through is catching some part of the rotatable circular part of the handle we were talking about and preventing the spring return from rotating the handle back up.

Calibos

Actually just reread the bit about the handle slumping under its own weight so it mightn't be something preventing spring back rotation. So something about the door is disengaging the spring mechanism once it's fitted.

the_pen_turner

am I right in thinking you took all the hardware off and it worked perfectly off the door.
then you swapped it onto another door
all that hardware from the other door worked off the door


if all those are right then it has to be the door
make sure there is no chips or splinters in the mortise for the mechanism
put in the latch mechanism and see where the square hole for the handle aligns with the hole in the door. if the bar hits or is really close to hitting it will put pressure on the mechanism and stop the spring working

one thing to think about is to make sure your screws aren't too long and binding up the mechanism.
you should see marks on the side of the mechanism.
try taking out the screws on both sides and see if it works better.


if its none of those then take a picture looking into the mortise for the mechanism and a pic of both sides of the door with the handles removed but the bar installed

the_pen_turner

am I right in thinking you took all the hardware off and it worked perfectly off the door.
then you swapped it onto another door
all that hardware from the other door worked off the door


if all those are right then it has to be the door
make sure there is no chips or splinters in the mortise for the mechanism
put in the latch mechanism and see where the square hole for the handle aligns with the hole in the door. if the bar hits or is really close to hitting it will put pressure on the mechanism and stop the spring working

one thing to think about is to make sure your screws aren't too long and binding up the mechanism.
you should see marks on the side of the mechanism.
try taking out the screws on both sides and see if it works better.


if its none of those then take a picture looking into the mortise for the mechanism and a pic of both sides of the door with the handles removed but the bar installed

54and56

Hi Calibos,

Thanks for your help. Whilst your suggestion wasn't correct it actually got me thinking and believe it or not led me to the solution

I disassembled the handles again and it dawned on me that there was a part I hadn't yet swapped out and it related to the point you made ref the slot at the bottom of the circular piece. I thought it was a slot to facilitate a flat head screw driver in order to "pop" the handles off but when I compared the black circular discs screwed to the door (which the handles clip onto) with the same ones on the stairs door it instantly became clear that both discs on the kitchen door were missing a "tab" which fits into the slot at the bottom of the circular part of the handle. It appears that from wear and tear the tabs on both discs on the kitchen door had broken off and thus weren't providing the resistance needed for the spring mechanism in the handles themselves to work.

See



and here is a photo of a working disc on top (with the tab on the left sticking out) and one of the broken discs below where the break can be seen resulting in no protruding tab.



As a temporary workaround I've cannibalised two less frequently used doors in the house taking one working disc from each and using them both on the kitchen door (which now works perfectly) and putting one broken disc on each of the other doors resulting in a slightly "lazy" return action but the doors in question aren't used much so it'll do until I contact the manufacturer and see if I can get some replacement discs sent to me.

Cheer's all. Your input challenged my own thinking and ultimately led me to find and fix the problem.

Very much appreciated DIY forum!!

greasepalm

you could just have taken doors off its hinges ,well done

54and56

greasepalm wrote: »

you could just have taken doors off its hinges ,well done

I was afraid I was heading in that direction but thankfully Calibos's suggestion got me heading in the right direction. If I hadn't copped to the problem with the discs I'd probably have started fluting around with the internal cut out etc and things could have started going pear shaped very quickly!!