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Insurance companies declining cover for cars 'over 15 years old' - classics affected?

  • 21-01-2016 6:49pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 4,027 ✭✭✭ Silvera


    My brother recently tried to get cover (for a young family member) on a '00 VW Polo. The majority of insurance companies refused due to the car being 'over 15 years old'. This issue has also recently been highlighted by the media.

    My question (with regard to classics) is -

    Has the 'not over 15 years old' "rule" affected 'youngtimer' classics (i.e. classics in the 15-to-30 year old bracket)?

    Has anybody here had recent experience of getting / not getting cover on a 'youngtimer'?


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,093 ✭✭✭ hi5


    If classic cars can't get insurance until they're 20 years old and normal cars can't get insurance over 15 years old then a lot of cars caught in the middle are going to get scrapped, but then that's what the vested interests like the government and new car dealers want.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,665 ✭✭✭ Diabhalta


    Somebody who is driving a 2000 Nissan Micra will definitely have 30K for a new car. Stupidity on a whole new level.

    Who do they think they are? I mean how they can say no when somebody need to get insurance? Is that person supposed to drive without insurance or how does this exactly work? Or (in case of foreigners) drive to the country they are from and register the car there (which would be madness, because insurance is dirt cheap there... green card issued no problem so insurance companies and government would be losing money)? Btw. it is perfectly legal to drive a car on foreign plates (long term) in Ireland once it has insurance and NCT.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,665 ✭✭✭ Diabhalta


    Somebody who is driving a 2000 Nissan Micra will definitely have 30K for a new car. Stupidity on a whole new level.

    Who do they think they are? I mean how they can say no when somebody need to get insurance? Is that person supposed to drive without insurance or how does this exactly works? Or (in case of foreigners) drive to the country they are from and register the car there (which would be madness, because insurance is dirt cheap there... green card issued no problem so insurance companies and government would be losing money)? Btw. it is perfectly legal to drive a car on foreign plates (long term) in Ireland once it has insurance and NCT.


  • Registered Users Posts: 568 ✭✭✭ CianDon


    You drive your shiny new 161 off the forecourt and slap a nasty pothole. This leaves a dirty wee crack in a lower suspension arm. This wont even be noticed until either it fails or you rock up for an NCT in 4 years time. Us codgers driving older cars have our cars tested every year yet we're less safe. The area of insurance and older cars has me fuming. I drive a '95 by choice, cause Ive no intention of sitting behind the wheel of a soulless eco box the same as everything else out there. Was the same with the GTi (1990) which was my daily driver. I pay a willing premium for the privalage but looks like the avenue is just gonna close because the Insurance companies do as they wish. 3 of the big 5 companies have set a 14 year limit (02) and Liberty have set it at 20 years at a push (96). That means that every other car beyond those ages is suddenly worthless as a daily driver. Only way now is to have an older second car but even then thats beyond the means of most and age limits apply cutting even more people off. The roads are becoming duller places and the scrap yards are beginning to burst with perfectly fine cars that the Insurance have deemed of no value.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,269 ✭✭✭ MercMad


    To be clear, it is NOT perfectly legal to drive a foreign car in Ireland. There are exemptions and exceptions but in general a "Resident" of Ireland cannot drive a foreign registered vehicle.

    Back on topic, the insurance companies will claim that their costs have risen due to cases involving older cars. They may be forced to insure you but it will costs you. I'll cross the bridge when I inevitably come to it !

    Diabhalta wrote: »
    Somebody who is driving a 2000 Nissan Micra will definitely have 30K for a new car. Stupidity on a whole new level.

    Who do they think they are? I mean how they can say no when somebody need to get insurance? Is that person supposed to drive without insurance or how does this exactly work? Or (in case of foreigners) drive to the country they are from and register the car there (which would be madness, because insurance is dirt cheap there... green card issued no problem so insurance companies and government would be losing money)? Btw. it is perfectly legal to drive a car on foreign plates (long term) in Ireland once it has insurance and NCT.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,665 ✭✭✭ Diabhalta


    MercMad wrote: »
    To be clear, it is NOT perfectly legal to drive a foreign car in Ireland. There are exemptions and exceptions but in general a "Resident" of Ireland cannot drive a foreign registered vehicle.

    Can you please tell me which law prohibits it? As far it has insurance and NCT the it's perfectly fine. Just because Ireland has motor tax and expensive insurance isn't a good enough reason to register a car over here. I know people who used to drive their foreign registered cars for years and there was no problem with it. One fella from NI got his car seized because it wasn't registered in the Republic and won the court case (which makes perfect sense).


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,676 ✭✭✭ Skatedude


    i pay 400 a year for my 8 series bmw, only requirement was car needs to be 15 years or older and limited to 6k millage a year through allianz. And it's my only & daily driver.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 58,858 CMod ✭✭✭✭ unkel


    My MGF (that does a very small mileage) will be 15 years old come renewal in May. I'll give Allianz a call first, thanks Skatedude!

    I've had a good experience with First Ireland too, who in the past insured a 22 year old car for me on a classic policy based on our other car, the main family car, being insured by my wife with me as a named driver. Will give them a call too and see where that leaves me...

    "Wind is Ireland's oil" - An Taoiseach, 25/05/2022



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭ swarlb


    Diabhalta wrote: »
    Can you please tell me which law prohibits it? As far it has insurance and NCT the it's perfectly fine. Just because Ireland has motor tax and expensive insurance isn't a good enough reason to register a car over here. I know people who used to drive their foreign registered cars for years and there was no problem with it. One fella from NI got his car seized because it wasn't registered in the Republic and won the court case (which makes perfect sense).

    I would have thought that in order to use a car here, legally on the roads, it had to be taxed, insured and NCT'd (if required). If this is not the case, is it possible to drive (for example) a UK registered car, and simply insure it, and get it taxed and mot'd in the UK as need be. Why is there such a thing as VRT ? Is this a 'loophole' we are not exploiting... yet !


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,586 ✭✭✭ emeldc


    Diabhalta wrote: »
    Can you please tell me which law prohibits it? As far it has insurance and NCT the it's perfectly fine. Just because Ireland has motor tax and expensive insurance isn't a good enough reason to register a car over here. I know people who used to drive their foreign registered cars for years and there was no problem with it. One fella from NI got his car seized because it wasn't registered in the Republic and won the court case (which makes perfect sense).

    Are you talking about residents or non residents. Insurance companies here won't cover a foreign reg, you also won't be able to tax it and as far as I know you can't nct it either. Read the small print on your own insurance policy. You'll find if you have a car here and are travelling abroad on holidays, your insurance will cover you for 30 days or so but they won't cover you for a full year. I've no reason to believe the reverse situation would be any different.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,665 ✭✭✭ Diabhalta


    emeldc wrote: »
    Are you talking about residents or non residents. Insurance companies here won't cover a foreign reg, you also won't be able to tax it and as far as I know you can't nct it either. Read the small print on your own insurance policy. You'll find if you have a car here and are travelling abroad on holidays, your insurance will cover you for 30 days or so but they won't cover you for a full year. I've no reason to believe the reverse situation would be any different.

    Residents of course.

    That's the point not to have it insured and taxed here (because it's ridiculously expensive.. especially the motor tax is bollocks ... how can you pay hundreds of euros to drive a car on roads that are similar to those in third world countries?). It is not mandatory to register a car in Ireland if you are the legal owner and intend to have it on original plates. Which law says that a resident from a foreign country has to switch plates? I am sure there is no such law. If you have a car insured let's say in Poland and want to travel around the Europe you can... How do you think people are driving their cars in Ireland on foreign plates long term? They don't have it insured for 30 days obviously. It's continental Europe, people travel a lot abroad and staying there as long as they want (which is pretty normal). What if you want to go for 4 months long summer holidays? People in Ireland fly abroad mostly for holidays but people in Central Europe just get in the car and drive... Croatia, Italy, Spain.. anywhere they want and time isn't a limitation. The only problem with a foreign car in Ireland is that you would have to drive back and have it NCTd there. The other solution (more convenient) is corruption.

    It seems that because Ireland and UK are islands and you travel by ferry to get here it is somehow straightforward that you switch plates. We are in European Union therefore it is safe to assume that it's not mandatory. Of course primary reasons are motor tax and insurance, but that's not a legitimate reason to register a car here. If I would be stopped by guards and they would tell me that I have to switch plates because I am a resident I would get a pen and take notes... ask them to tell me which law orders me to change plates if I live in Ireland long term. I am sure they would tell me something like "if you are importing a vehicle you must..." but the catch is I wouldn't be importing anything. I just drive my own car on Irish soil.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,586 ✭✭✭ emeldc


    Diabhalta wrote: »
    Residents of course.

    That's the point not to have it insured and taxed here (because it's ridiculously expensive.. especially the motor tax is bollocks ... how can you pay hundreds of euros to drive a car on roads that are similar to those in third world countries?). It is not mandatory to register a car in Ireland if you are the legal owner and intend to have it on original plates. Which law says that a resident from a foreign country has to switch plates? I am sure there is no such law. If you have a car insured let's say in Poland and want to travel around the Europe you can... How do you think people are driving their cars in Ireland on foreign plates long term? They don't have it insured for 30 days obviously. It's continental Europe, people travel a lot abroad and staying there as long as they want (which is pretty normal). What if you want to go for 4 months long summer holidays? People in Ireland fly abroad mostly for holidays but people in Central Europe just get in the car and drive... Croatia, Italy, Spain.. anywhere they want and time isn't a limitation. The only problem with a foreign car in Ireland is that you would have to drive back and have it NCTd there. The other solution (more convenient) is corruption.

    It seems that because Ireland and UK are islands and you travel by ferry to get here it is somehow straightforward that you switch plates. We are in European Union therefore it is safe to assume that it's not mandatory. Of course primary reasons are motor tax and insurance, but that's not a legitimate reason to register a car here. If I would be stopped by guards and they would tell me that I have to switch plates because I am a resident I would get a pen and take notes... ask them to tell me which law orders me to change plates if I live in Ireland long term. I am sure they would tell me something like "if you are importing a vehicle you must..." but the catch is I wouldn't be importing anything. I just drive my own car on Irish soil.

    I don't know which bit you're having difficulty with, if you're resident you have to register the fuggin' thing, dem's de rules. If you're a non resident this might help, I didn't read it all.
    http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/leaflets/temporary-exemption-foreign-registered.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,374 ✭✭✭ O.A.P


    I think the guards or customs officer will tell you that if you are resident here your car must have an Irish NCT if you use it here.
    To obtain an Irish NCT the car must first be registered here.
    That's how I think it works anyway.
    I don't agree with it by the way.


  • Registered Users Posts: 185 ✭✭ pryantcc


    I'm dreading it. Insurance is up in March, my '92 is a daily driver, 20K miles per year. :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 519 ✭✭✭ piston


    A Peugeot 205 here, owned for over 10 years now, not immaculate but well serviced and decent mechanical condition, just passed NCT, drives well, doesn't even burn any oil and happily covers 200 miles in the average week with seemingly less problems than anyone with a modern car yet I will probably be screwed for insurance in a few months time even though I have never made an insurance claim in 19 years of driving :(

    I hope I don't end up having to scrap it to buy something boring.


  • Registered Users Posts: 519 ✭✭✭ piston


    A Peugeot 205 here, owned for over 10 years now, not immaculate but well serviced and decent mechanical condition, just passed NCT, drives well, doesn't even burn any oil and happily covers 200 miles in the average week with seemingly less problems than anyone with a modern car yet I will probably be screwed for insurance in a few months time even though I have never made an insurance claim in 19 years of driving :(

    I hope I don't end up having to scrap it to buy something boring.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,665 ✭✭✭ Diabhalta


    emeldc wrote: »
    I don't know which bit you're having difficulty with, if you're resident you have to register the fuggin' thing, dem's de rules. If you're a non resident this might help, I didn't read it all.
    http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/leaflets/temporary-exemption-foreign-registered.html

    That's not answering my question which law states that I must register a foreign car in Ireland if I'm a resident :) ... it's not like "you have to because".

    I wouldn't trust anything Revenue says. They tell you that you can bring 4 cartons of cigarettes (800pcs) from abroad max, but it's actually 16 cartons (3200pcs). I don't trust anything they say.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,665 ✭✭✭ Diabhalta


    O.A.P wrote: »
    I think the guards or customs officer will tell you that if you are resident here your car must have an Irish NCT if you use it here.
    To obtain an Irish NCT the car must first be registered here.
    That's how I think it works anyway.
    I don't agree with it by the way.

    Of course they will say it, but what is important here what the law says about it (if there is any). Is there a such thing in law that says "residents living in Ireland for more than 186 days a year are obliged to give up on their original licence plate and register their car in Ireland"? Logically they can't force people to change registration and if they are threatening that they will seize the car it's nothing more than bullying. Seizing a car for this reason is absolutely against the law. And I wouldn't bother taking it to the Irish court, I would take it to the European court.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,586 ✭✭✭ emeldc


    Diabhalta wrote: »
    That's not answering my question which law states that I must register a foreign car in Ireland if I'm a resident :) ... it's not like "you have to because".

    I wouldn't trust anything Revenue says. They tell you that you can bring 4 cartons of cigarettes (800pcs) from abroad max, but it's actually 16 cartons (3200pcs). I don't trust anything they say.

    It's VRT law. I haven't the interest to look it up nor would I want to draw undue attention from the tax man by saying I wouldn't trust him :rolleyes:.
    Have you a link to the cigarettes thing (although it's probably too far off topic).


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,586 ✭✭✭ emeldc


    pryantcc wrote: »
    I'm dreading it. Insurance is up in March, my '92 is a daily driver, 20K miles per year. :(

    I think you'll be ok because you have it continuously insured.
    The excuse on the 10/15 year rule thing is to do with fraud. Like scumbags buying bangers for a couple of hundred euro and then staging accidents.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 617 ✭✭✭ smeal


    I own a 00 Corsa and have had it continuously insured with AXA now for 3 years since I bought it (premium has decreased each year due to no claims) . Is my premium likely to go up because of the age of the vehicle or Do these rules only apply to people who are first time looking for insurance on an old car?

    My insurance premium currently stands at the same amount that I paid for the car basically as I'm still considered a young driver and only on my 3rd year NCB- if it was to go up it probably wouldn't be worth my while keeping the car. It would be such a shame as the car is a great little run around, it's clean inside and out, I don't do massive mileage, keep it in good shape and it goes from one NCT to the next without a problem which is more than can be said about some of my friends/family who are driving cars that are less than 10 years old.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,586 ✭✭✭ emeldc


    smeal wrote: »
    I own a 00 Corsa and have had it continuously insured with AXA now for 3 years since I bought it (premium has decreased each year due to no claims) . Is my premium likely to go up because of the age of the vehicle or Do these rules only apply to people who are first time looking for insurance on an old car?

    My insurance premium currently stands at the same amount that I paid for the car basically as I'm still considered a young driver and only on my 3rd year NCB- if it was to go up it probably wouldn't be worth my while keeping the car. It would be such a shame as the car is a great little run around, it's clean inside and out, I don't do massive mileage, keep it in good shape and it goes from one NCT to the next without a problem which is more than can be said about some of my friends/family who are driving cars that are less than 10 years old.

    Just from my own experience, I insured a '98 Golf last July with AXA for the first time having moved from Liberty, so I'd say you should be ok. As for the premium, expect it to go up, although they'll blame a whole range of things for that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,597 ✭✭✭✭ Maryanne84


    When did this come in? I insured my 00 in Dec no problems. Is it not only for new insurances?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,374 ✭✭✭ O.A.P


    I insured an 99 astra last august which I had owned for 13 years and full NBC . The premium went up by 100 euro or so .
    I rang around (which I do every year anyway) all of the insurance firms I could find but finished up staying with Avia after knocking 20 euro off over the phone.
    Two firms would not offer me any quote because of the cars age and the rest were anywhere between 695 and 950.
    1.4 petrol astra.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭ swarlb


    Diabhalta wrote: »
    Residents of course.

    That's the point not to have it insured and taxed here (because it's ridiculously expensive.. especially the motor tax is bollocks ... how can you pay hundreds of euros to drive a car on roads that are similar to those in third world countries?). It is not mandatory to register a car in Ireland if you are the legal owner and intend to have it on original plates. Which law says that a resident from a foreign country has to switch plates? I am sure there is no such law. If you have a car insured let's say in Poland and want to travel around the Europe you can... How do you think people are driving their cars in Ireland on foreign plates long term? They don't have it insured for 30 days obviously. It's continental Europe, people travel a lot abroad and staying there as long as they want (which is pretty normal). What if you want to go for 4 months long summer holidays? People in Ireland fly abroad mostly for holidays but people in Central Europe just get in the car and drive... Croatia, Italy, Spain.. anywhere they want and time isn't a limitation. The only problem with a foreign car in Ireland is that you would have to drive back and have it NCTd there. The other solution (more convenient) is corruption.

    It seems that because Ireland and UK are islands and you travel by ferry to get here it is somehow straightforward that you switch plates. We are in European Union therefore it is safe to assume that it's not mandatory. Of course primary reasons are motor tax and insurance, but that's not a legitimate reason to register a car here. If I would be stopped by guards and they would tell me that I have to switch plates because I am a resident I would get a pen and take notes... ask them to tell me which law orders me to change plates if I live in Ireland long term. I am sure they would tell me something like "if you are importing a vehicle you must..." but the catch is I wouldn't be importing anything. I just drive my own car on Irish soil.


    Again I'll ask you....and just so you'll know, I am resident here. Are you saying, categorically, and within the law of the land, that I can bring a car into Ireland from a 'foreign' country, and drive it, legally, and without fear of any repercussion whatsoever, from the law, or from revenue, without road tax, and that I don't need to VRT it either ????


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,586 ✭✭✭ emeldc


    swarlb wrote: »
    Again I'll ask you....and just so you'll know, I am resident here. Are you saying, categorically, and within the law of the land, that I can bring a car into Ireland from a 'foreign' country, and drive it, legally, and without fear of any repercussion whatsoever, from the law, or from revenue, without road tax, and that I don't need to VRT it either ????

    As they say,'when it sounds too good to be true,........................:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭ swarlb


    emeldc wrote: »
    As they say,'when it sounds too good to be true,........................:rolleyes:

    I don't know... if I was stopped, all I need to do is tell the Garda that 'Diabhalta from Boards told me I didn't need any of that stuff'.... and later in court I'll simply say that 'Diabhalta from Boards told me never to trust anything that Revenue tells me'.......it's sure to be worth an interview on Ray D'Arcy at the very least....


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,266 ✭✭✭ spyderski


    Diabhalta wrote: »
    Of course they will say it, but what is important here what the law says about it (if there is any). Is there a such thing in law that says "residents living in Ireland for more than 186 days a year are obliged to give up on their original licence plate and register their car in Ireland"? Logically they can't force people to change registration and if they are threatening that they will seize the car it's nothing more than bullying. Seizing a car for this reason is absolutely against the law. And I wouldn't bother taking it to the Irish court, I would take it to the European court.

    The law is unbelievably, categorically, 100% clear cut on this. If you are normally resident in Ireland (there is a legal definition of this) you must register your car in Ireland. If you have owned the car abroad for over 6 months you dont have to pay VRT, but still must register it. There are some temporary exceptions for foreign students etc. (even then you have to register as such) but not many. You must apply to have the car inspected within I think 3 days of arrival in the state, and it must be registered within 1 month. If you are on holidays here this does not affect you. If you are resident, i.e. working, living, paying tax, on the dole, living permanently with your Irish lover WHATEVER, you must register the car. If anyone tells you anything to the contrary they are wrong, end of story.

    I know this because I've been trying for 10 years to find a loophole :-) - there is none, so don't bother. VRT is a scam, pure and simple, but they have made the legislation around it 100% watertight. Remember, there were guys with a lot better professional tax advice than you or me having to pay €100's of thousands in the boom to register Ferraris and Astons etc.

    Forget anything else you read or hear on boards or in the pub. If you are bothered you can educate yourself on revenue.ie You may well know someone who got away with it for a while, or maybe for ever, but it's the law, and if you're caught they WILL sieze your car and they WILL have the law on their side in doing so.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,665 ✭✭✭ Diabhalta


    swarlb wrote: »
    I don't know... if I was stopped, all I need to do is tell the Garda that 'Diabhalta from Boards told me I didn't need any of that stuff'.... and later in court I'll simply say that 'Diabhalta from Boards told me never to trust anything that Revenue tells me'.......it's sure to be worth an interview on Ray D'Arcy at the very least....

    you sound like a 14 year old.
    spyderski wrote: »
    The law is unbelievably, categorically, 100% clear cut on this. If you are normally resident in Ireland (there is a legal definition of this) you must register your car in Ireland. If you have owned the car abroad for over 6 months you dont have to pay VRT, but still must register it. There are some temporary exceptions for foreign students etc. (even then you have to register as such) but not many. You must apply to have the car inspected within I think 3 days of arrival in the state, and it must be registered within 1 month. If you are on holidays here this does not affect you. If you are resident, i.e. working, living, paying tax, on the dole, living permanently with your Irish lover WHATEVER, you must register the car. If anyone tells you anything to the contrary they are wrong, end of story.

    I know this because I've been trying for 10 years to find a loophole :-) - there is none, so don't bother. VRT is a scam, pure and simple, but they have made the legislation around it 100% watertight. Remember, there were guys with a lot better professional tax advice than you or me having to pay €100's of thousands in the boom to register Ferraris and Astons etc.

    Forget anything else you read or hear on boards or in the pub. If you are bothered you can educate yourself on revenue.ie You may well know someone who got away with it for a while, or maybe for ever, but it's the law, and if you're caught they WILL sieze your car and they WILL have the law on their side in doing so.

    I still would like to know which law says it, that's all.

    Re seizing cars, you are wrong:

    http://www.donegaldaily.com/2014/04/11/we-won-court-case-when-gardai-seized-car-you-can-do-the-same/

    "...by taking his car the garda was in breach of his rights under European Law, specifically articles 25 and 39 of the Treaty of Rome; that gardai would be in breach of his rights on freedom of movement as well as in breach of due process under the Irish Constitution.

    This effectively says that seizure of goods more than the amount allegedly owed to the State is illegal."


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭ swarlb


    Diabhalta wrote: »
    you sound like a 14 year old.



    I still would like to know which law says it, that's all.

    Re seizing cars, you are wrong:

    http://www.donegaldaily.com/2014/04/11/we-won-court-case-when-gardai-seized-car-you-can-do-the-same/

    "...by taking his car the garda was in breach of his rights under European Law, specifically articles 25 and 39 of the Treaty of Rome; that gardai would be in breach of his rights on freedom of movement as well as in breach of due process under the Irish Constitution.

    This effectively says that seizure of goods more than the amount allegedly owed to the State is illegal."

    Well.. I don't act my age, that's for certain. I'm simply asking you a very, plain and simple question, and I'd like a plain and simple answer.
    You mentioned in an earlier post that you DONT need to register your car in Ireland, and therefor you are not obliged to pay any of the various charges associated with doing so... that's all.
    All I want to know is HOW DO I DO THIS WITHOUT BEING STOPPED BY THE GARDAI ?????
    Do I simply have to take your word for it, or is there some hidden piece of legislation to help. Or... are you just making it up to annoy us all...??


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