DIY electrical Challenge- outdoor lighting extension but maybe more can be done ??

masculinist

There was an outdoor Halogen light above my back door for years. The glass was cracked and it was well due to be replaced. The old plastic outdoor junction box was severely weathered and broken too. So I replaced the Halogen light with a low powered LED lamp and replaced the plastic junction box with a brand new one with plenty of sealant behind it [pictured in the attached images].



It all works very well now. I wish that box was straighter but I was reusing preexisting holes which were not my doing and it seemed pointless to drill a new hole just for that.




Inside the plastic outdoor box is a heavy duty connector strip. This is simply a plastic array of places where wires can be connected to each other easily. So each load wire [earth,live and neutral] is connected to ts corresponding live wire. So far so good.


I am very happy with the job so far.


However, I would ideally like to have lights in the left and right hand sides of the garden too,not just above the back door.


So what is thought about my also connecting in on either side two low powered led PIR lamps which would make three overall ?

The old Halogen bulb must have been 120 watts or more. It used to get very hot.

This new LED stays cool and is 7 or 14 watts [I think] so 3 of those or two lower powered leds in parallel doesnt seem to be any significant load compared to what was there before.

If this sounds reasonable, can anyone recommend an easy way to connect those LED lamps in parallel ? If I site two more junction boxes to wire each new lamp into , what sort of cable should I run between them exposed to the elements ? One will be just around a corner and 2 metres away. The other will be on the same back wall and 4 metres away.

Those connector strips can be fidgety and definitely wont be happy if I connect any more of those thick wires in the same terminal, it was a tight squeeze already so is there some other type of connector strip which can take one input and connect to 3 loads ?



Now a completely different question. I have seen security cameras which communicate back to the owner over wifi. Would it be possible to connect this into the circuit ?


Any ideas about this project would be very welcome

masculinist

please delete this double posted thread. for some reason i cant:/

dodzy

Isolate the power at the Consumer Unit. Get a larger strip connector to accommodate the 3 sets of cables on the LOAD side of the terminals. While the box is open, use this as opportunity to drill other holes in the plastic box, squared up to the existing masonry holes to level the box.

And look towards improving your handling of a silicon gun - looks like it was applied with a breadknife

masculinist

dodzy wrote: »

Get a larger strip connector to accommodate the 3 sets of cables on the LOAD side of the terminals.

is there any sort of connector which has 1 input and 3 outputs for 3 low powered LEDS ? I dont' want sloppy connections with wires which might come loose over time

dodzy wrote: »

While the box is open, use this as opportunity to drill other holes in the plastic box, squared up to the existing masonry holes to level the box.

I am a minimalist about drilling more holes [if not for sealant:D]. An electrician drilled those holes 20 years ago. That horizontal metal bar in the photo is actually part of a canopy which when re-assembled will cover sight of the box from below and give additional weathering protection from above for the lamp .

dodzy wrote: »

And look towards improving your handling of a silicon gun - looks like it was applied with a breadknife

I know. Those guns drive me crazy as it sticks to everything including the hand or thing i use to smooth it.It wasnt exactly silicon though. I would have used tec-7 but I picked up for 2 euro a tube of 25 year outdoors guaranteed mastic [very sticky] Frame Sealant in a bargain corner of Woodies and thought that would be a solution for the next few years at least. It was probably neat at first then I couldnt resist applying more than was probably needed. I filled the hole where the live wire exits the house with it.

tedimc

There is an outdoor resistant cable called 'artic cable' - I've seen it in blue and yellow, but presume you can get it in white also.

1.5mm would be fine for the lights. But you would be better with 2.5mm if you want to include a camera. However, where is the feed coming from for the light you show in the picture - is it off a wall switch? You would need to check if its a light or socket circuit.

Yes, there are a lot of wifi cameras available. Some good, some great some absolute muck. What is it for, just to keep an eye on the garden? If so, get an outdoor one from amazon for around 60 to 100 euros. Foscam are a make I have used. They are not bad for the price and have a decent mobile app - but can be ropey from time to time. Make sure to get an IR one, so that it will work/see at night.

If you want a few cameras/longer lasting job - I'd run a dedicate Cat6 cable out to a good IP camera (Axis, etc.) This way you can power the camera using Power of Ethernet on the same cable. You would need to then route this back to your internet router (check it supports PoE, or you can buy an injector).

One final thing - there are compounds you can get to water seal you connections after completion. Some are designed for underground connections (totally covering the connection) and set like silicone, but these are expensive. I got a can of similar spray like grease that is for use on exposed connections. Worth giving it a spray into the junction box as over time it will get full of insects, dirt, etc.

masculinist

Thanks thats some really useful information . I was going to choose some sort of outdoor resistant cable but I like to overdo it sometimes so was also thinking to run it through a conduit for additional protection and neatness

ted1

Why two more junction boxes ? Just wire straight into the fitting.

masculinist

ted1 wrote: »

Why two more junction boxes ? Just wire straight into the fitting.

Dont I need something to weather proof the connection point ? The LED 8.5W lamps I am using dont take the wires internally. They have internal wires of their own coming out.

dodzy

masculinist wrote: »

Dont I need something to weather proof the connection point ? The LED 8.5W lamps I am using dont take the wires internally. They have internal wires of their own coming out.

So the supplied cable length on the lights are not long enough to wire directly to the junction box ?

masculinist

dodzy wrote: »

So the supplied cable length on the lights are not long enough to wire directly to the junction box ?

No. Not at all. If I did that then all 3 LED lamps would be too close to each other.

ted1

Can you open the part where the cables come out and replace the cable ?

Steve

Replace the cable is the obvious answer here. You'll be fine on the loading.
I'd just run all 3 back to the junction box connector strip via suitable waterproof glands.

Bear in mind that any cable you use outdoors must be outdoor rated (i.e. won't UV degrade in sunlight) and pay attention to water ingress by using drip loops etc.

The other thing you should know it our glorious overlords have made it illegal for a homeowner, or even a qualified electrician to do this type of work unless they have paid the domestic installation registration tax.

Hope that helps

masculinist

Steve wrote: »

Replace the cable is the obvious answer here. You'll be fine on the loading.
I'd just run all 3 back to the junction box connector strip via suitable waterproof glands.

Bear in mind that any cable you use outdoors must be outdoor rated (i.e. won't UV degrade in sunlight) and pay attention to water ingress by using drip loops etc.

The other thing you should know it our glorious overlords have made it illegal for a homeowner, or even a qualified electrician to do this type of work unless they have paid the domestic installation registration tax.

Hope that helps

'domestic installation registration tax' ? Was that a joke ? I cant find any reference to it in Google....

Thanks for reminding me about the drip loop thing. I had completely forgotten about that

I definitely will choose ''outdoor rated'' cable and am considering getting a length of conduit too to run it inside and keep it neat. That cable is pretty pricy and I'm not looking for much so I'm hoping I can find it perhaps in adverts or one of those buy and sell pages.



I figured it would be easier to swap the lamps in and out or to add in anything else to the circuit like a security camera in future if there were separate junction boxes. Although when I think about it , maybe a true security camera should be higher so its less easy to tamper with e.g under the eaves

Steve

masculinist wrote: »

'domestic installation registration tax' ? Was that a joke ? I cant find any reference to it in Google....

Its a thing alright, I was being sarcastic in my reference. I can legally rewire a factory where thousands of people work but can't change a light fitting in my own house :rolleyes:
http://www.safeelectric.ie/index.php

Thanks for reminding me about the drip loop thing. I had completely forgotten about that

I definitely will choose ''outdoor rated'' cable and am considering getting a length of conduit too to run it inside and keep it neat. That cable is pretty pricy and I'm not looking for much so I'm hoping I can find it perhaps in adverts or one of those buy and sell pages.

Go to a wholesaler - never buy 2nd hand unless you know the source.
Most wholesalers will do cash transactions - ring them first to see if the will split rolls though, many won't

I figured it would be easier to swap the lamps in and out or to add in anything else to the circuit like a security camera in future if there were separate junction boxes. Although when I think about it , maybe a true security camera should be higher so its less easy to tamper with e.g under the eaves

Most IP / Wlan cameras I've seen have a power supply like a phone charger - may not be an option to do via the wall mounted box.

masculinist

Steve wrote: »

Its a thing alright, I was being sarcastic in my reference. I can legally rewire a factory where thousands of people work but can't change a light fitting in my own house :rolleyes:
http://www.safeelectric.ie/index.php

Legislation seems to be usually reactionary instead of being aimed at preventing it from happening. There must have been a spate of house fires or something. I remember hearing about a family who were burned alive but they had no fire escape and it was blamed on faulty wiring but fire escapes were definitely installed in the listed building afterwards. Factories usually know who was directly responsible for a job but from experience electricians often did jobs for us as nixers with no certs at all which is easily denied, I couldnt tell you the name or identify the face of the guy who installed a light fitting for me 10 years ago and many people if they have some confidence will simply do it themselves.
I think its less about safety and more about avoiding political responsibility.

Steve wrote: »

Most IP / Wlan cameras I've seen have a power supply like a phone charger - may not be an option to do via the wall mounted box.

Yeah I came to that realization pretty soon when I looked at some available models. I think some might possibly be powered via a physical data connection similar to USB but that still involves making more holes. I might investigate if theres some gap for cable under the eaves at the attic and locate a camera really high where it cant be interfered with. Its not that I have any fear of crime.... I think its just like playing with LEGO for adults lol;)

iwillhtfu

Wow how has this thread stayed open there's some terrible advice on here.

OP you don't need artic cable unless you plan on running your cables through a cold store.

OP you'd need to give more detail on where these other lights are going in relation to this original light.

How do you plan to route cables?

Distance?

Do you need armoured cable/containment?

Will you be crossing any paths?

RE your cameras. The supply at this light is a switched 10A supply it is not a permanent supply which would ordinarily be used for cameras and switched through a fused spur.

Your initial project of replacing the light would presumably fall into a grey area with regard to electrical installations but what you have planned next should be carried out by a registered/competent electrician. It is a straight forward job and I wouldn't expect it to be very expensive.

iwillhtfu

Wow how has this thread stayed open there's some terrible advice on here.

OP you don't need artic cable unless you plan on running your cables through a cold store.

OP you'd need to give more detail on where these other lights are going in relation to this original light.

How do you plan to route cables?

Distance?

Do you need armoured cable/containment?

Will you be crossing any paths?

RE your cameras. The supply at this light is a switched 10A supply it is not a permanent supply which would ordinarily be used for cameras and switched through a fused spur.

Your initial project of replacing the light would presumably fall into a grey area with regard to electrical installations but what you have planned next should be carried out by a registered/competent electrician. It is a straight forward job and I wouldn't expect it to be very expensive.

masculinist

iwillhtfu wrote: »

Wow how has this thread stayed open there's some terrible advice on here.

There is a lot of great advice on the thread. It might be more accurately shifted into the electrical forum but it was difficult to post initially because the site was getting bombarded by a DDOS attack when I posted. Why do you think censoring and closing a reasonable discussion between adults would help me to do a better job ? [Take it as given that I know to turn the power off at the consumer unit and take additional precautions to insulate myself and use a phase tester on any possible live wires, And an RCD while drilling outdoors etc etc] .

iwillhtfu wrote: »

OP you don't need artic cable unless you plan on running your cables through a cold store.

Do you not think the very best cable should be used so that the cable is durable in all weather conditions ? Whats supposed to happen when we have a repeat of some of the recent terrible winters ?

iwillhtfu wrote: »

OP you'd need to give more detail on where these other lights are going in relation to this original light.

I thought I already mentioned that. I replaced an outdoor light above my back door which was 120 watts with a small 8.5 Watt LED motion detecting lamp from Lidl.
I have 2 more of these low powered lamps and intend to wire them in parallel with the original lamp around the perimeter of the back wall of the house. One will be around a corner and 1.5 metres away. The other will be at most 3.5 metres away in a straight line.

iwillhtfu wrote: »

How do you plan to route cables?

Assuming the cable has been chosen [Arctic or some other outdoors cable which you suggest or which is suggested at my local wholesaler, B&Q etc]
then I intend to route them with drip loops and parallel to the original lamp position at the same height.

I'm sure I will need some sort of weatherproof clips to hold the cable up there but was thinking of installing an additional small weatherproof conduit cut to the correct length to run the cable through and holding that up with brackets.

iwillhtfu wrote: »

Distance?

mentioned above

iwillhtfu wrote: »

Do you need armoured cable/containment?

Why would I unless you think rats chewing through it would be a problem ?
I was considering a neat conduit as I mentioned above

iwillhtfu wrote: »

Will you be crossing any paths?

It will be all above the ground and there will be nothing in the way of the cables, especially not people, other cables or objects. Its a straight run around the wall.

iwillhtfu wrote: »

RE your cameras. The supply at this light is a switched 10A supply it is not a permanent supply which would ordinarily be used for cameras and switched through a fused spur.

Thanks for the info. Science is about the art of the possible so I wondered if there were any products on the market which could take a connection with that lighting circuit and relay the signal back using encrypted wifi [or at the very least store the images on a large SD card inside. If it doesn't exist then there could be a gap in the market for it.

iwillhtfu wrote: »

Your initial project of replacing the light would presumably fall into a grey area with regard to electrical installations.

Rest assured no laws will be broken. There is and should be no law against getting an education. I can always get a friend who is an electrician to check it before I turn the power back on. I would always expect safety to be the number one priority when adults are learning and discussing.

iwillhtfu wrote: »

but what you have planned next should be carried out by a registered/competent electrician. It is a straight forward job and I wouldn't expect it to be very expensive.

Which part are you referring to that I planned next ? Do you mean the camera ? The camera is merely an idea I wished to discuss but have no set timeframe for implementing. The more I discuss the better able I will be to make informed decisions.

iwillhtfu

masculinist wrote: »

a phase tester on any possible live wires,

Possibly the worst tool any person could have in their box to be honest and a joke of a tool amongst electricians.

masculinist wrote: »

There is a lot of great advice on the thread. It might be more accurately shifted into the electrical forum but it was difficult to post initially because the site was getting bombarded by a DDOS attack when I posted. Why do you think censoring and closing a reasonable discussion between adults would help me to do a better job ?

If it were in the electrical forum it would automatically be censored and you would be told to call an electrician. Boards is not the place for an electrical education. I suggest you contact I suggest you contact FAS regarding an apprenticeship if you wish to learn.

masculinist wrote: »

Do you not think the very best cable should be used so that the cable is durable in all weather conditions ? Whats supposed to happen when we have a repeat of some of the recent terrible winters ?

Quite simply Arctic cable is not the best cable for the job and the fact that you think it is highlights a serious concern.

masculinist wrote: »

Rest assured no laws will be broken. There is and should be no law against getting an education. I can always get a friend who is an electrician to check it before I turn the power back on. I would always expect safety to be the number one priority when adults are learning and discussing.

I'm sorry but they will if you plan to carry out this work. End of no exceptions.

masculinist wrote: »

Thanks for the info. Science is about the art of the possible so I wondered if there were any products on the market which could take a connection with that lighting circuit and relay the signal back using encrypted wifi [or at the very least store the images on a large SD card inside. If it doesn't exist then there could be a gap in the market for it.

There is no gap in the market. There are regulations in place for such installations and none of them allow for using a lighting circuit for anything other than lighting.

masculinist wrote: »

Why would I unless you think rats chewing through it would be a problem ?
I was considering a neat conduit as I mentioned above

Why wouldn't you should be the question? There is no such thing as a generic cable. FYI conduit is containment.

I was going to say contact me via pm and I can run through your requirements and method but to be honest sounds like you already know it all.

Good Luck.

Steve

iwillhtfu, I think you are over reacting mate. The man is just looking for advice, no need for the slating.

I've seen plenty of things that weren't lights installed on 'lighting' circuits and certified by reci lads. Al they do is designate it a GS circuit rather than lighting.

Running the wires in conduit will solve the outdoor rating (as regards UV degrade) but be careful you don't create any water traps. Think drip loops again and where will the water go if it gets in.

iwillhtfu

I think you what you're thinking of is a designated power circuit and this wouldn't have lights.

At the end of the day he dosent know what he's doing so probably better to get someone that does know what they're doing to do the work.

I'm not slating or trying to offend anyone but electrical work is not something you throw your hand at. There's plenty of cowboys out there as it is.

Mine is just another opinion on here so by all means OP can disregard it.

masculinist

iwillhtfu wrote: »

At the end of the day he dosent know what he's doing so probably better to get someone that does know what they're doing to do the work.

You stated above that I claimed arctic cable was the best for the job. You also claimed arctic cable was not the best for the job. I did not claim any cable was best. Instead I asked for opinions. This indicates that you dont' really know what you are talking about by making unsubstantiated claims concerning me and by only offering questions designed to denigrate while refusing to answer mine. There is no mysticism to this job. The laws of physics are quite clear. The procedure is quite clear. The products widely available to the public in the likes of B&Q etc are quite clear. This is a really straightforward job. I'd like to thank everyone who gave some solid advice and pointers and I'd not like the thread to be derailed by some dogma of ''electricians are high priests who alone can only understand this'' thanks. I came for a chat and a think. Thats all. I like to exercise my brain. Thats what this thread is all about.

Steve

@iwillhtfu: You're right - it was just the way you said it. My apologies, I agree, there are no second chances when it comes to electricity.

ted1

"RE your cameras. The supply at this light is a switched 10A supply it is not a permanent supply which would ordinarily be used for cameras and switched through a fused spur."

But much point having a permanent supply if the router doesn't have one.,

masculinist

ted1 wrote: »

"RE your cameras. The supply at this light is a switched 10A supply it is not a permanent supply which would ordinarily be used for cameras and switched through a fused spur."

But much point having a permanent supply if the router doesn't have one.,

I usually leave the switch ''always on'' because a combination of 'dusk + motion sensor' activates it. If a camera could be hooked into this circuit too, I would expect to choose one which was similarly motion sensor activated.

masculinist

I made a few decisions. I put up a Keter plastic tough waterproof shed and wired a double socket to it which my freezer and dryer will go. I used a solid Workzone outdoor plug kit from Aldi, designed to be exposed to the weather outside but instead of hanging it outside, I hung it on the inside of my shed. So if I did in theory want a camera to scan my garden, I would put it into the locked shed, peeping out of its window. So the outdoor lighting system is on a completely different circuit.

Steve

One thing to consider there is that if you get a night vision security cam with IR lighting, they tend not to see through glass very well.

masculinist

Steve wrote: »

One thing to consider there is that if you get a night vision security cam with IR lighting, they tend not to see through glass very well.

Thanks yeah I wouldn't expect motion detecting to work through a pane either but I have at least now established a way to power it up outside without hooking it into the lighting circuit.
I'm pretty happy with the shed too. A Keter 6 by 4 foot durable hard plastic which I picked up second hand for a 100 euro in a Facebook advert. They seem to be a few hundred more than that new and it may as well be new. Its totally waterproof and I think I will run beads of Tec 7 along all the possible points of future ingress just to double up the protection.
Its' going to stay there even after my next project which will be to build a brick or concrete workshop/shed at the other end of the garden. The external lights haven't been put up yet but that will be next once I source the arctic cable. I have been shopping around when I had a chance. One of the additional 2 LED lights will point at the plastic shed entrance and the other one will point at the entrance of where the brick/concrete one will go.

Steve

Nice one.

Be careful about sealing it up too much or you'll get condensation on the inside..

Lidl have some nice 8W PIR LED Floods for €22 at the mo. I got a few but haven't lit one up yet.

masculinist

Steve wrote: »

Nice one.

Be careful about sealing it up too much or you'll get condensation on the inside..

It has some vents so I think it will be ok. In fact I fed the power cable through one of the vent slits.
I moved a chest freezer and a dryer out there earlier. This freed up a lot of extra room in the kitchen. Its' freezing out there so I'm hopeful that the freezer will cost a lot less to run as it wont have to be constantly battling the central heating.

Steve wrote: »

Lidl have some nice 8W PIR LED Floods for €22 at the mo. I got a few but haven't lit one up yet.

I think thats what I have. 8.5 Watt and was 19.99

http://www.offerscheck.org/livarno-lux-led-spotlight-85w/lidl/2016/kw-4/282084

Hopefully by tomorrow evening I will have 3 of them outside in the back garden in total.